Unpopular DB opinions

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:39 am

Planetnamek wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:59 am

Exactly, they present it as though Goku is actually finally getting some much needed character development and maturing, only to suddenly pull the rug out and go "haha fooled ya!" :roll: I felt like i'd been tricked.
But how did you get any of that out of the finale? “Here’s this kid I wished for I’m training him to be my successor and for the one real good fight I’m looking for bye everybody” It’s a full circle ending the student is now the master. He said his goodbyes. Nothing about it felt like “There’s more to come haha sike!”’

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:49 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:36 am
ABED wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:17 am
It's the whole "the characters go onto the next chapter of their life". I never got the sense that there was more to see. After 42 volumes, 500+ chapters, and nearly 450 episodes, there's nothing sudden.
I'm not saying this was intended, but to me, it came off as the beginning of something that never saw the light of day, despite not being intended as such. GT's ending, despite more or less following the same ideas, didn't have this issue.
Other than him leaving, how were the endings expressing the same idea? In one, Goku is going off to teach someone so he can have another great fight; the other has him dying and going into the afterlife.

GT gave us a fitting definitive ending for Goku's story and Z gave us a fitting thematic ending.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:19 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:49 am
Other than him leaving, how were the endings expressing the same idea?
Both end with the idea of the next gen of fighters taking over, and both end with the idea of the adventures still continuing (Goku flying off with Uub in Z, and Goku watching over everyone in GT).

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:00 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:18 am
The biggest issue I have with EOZ is that it didn't feel like an ending, but rather the beginning of a story that never got published.
ABED wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:17 am
It's the whole "the characters go onto the next chapter of their life". I never got the sense that there was more to see. He's going off excited for the future. We don't need to see it because we know he's fine.
On the End of Z question - given the positions given above, does anyone feel like the two different manga endings give different vibes as to the finality of the series? Toriyama initially mentioned at the beginning of Volume 42 that he deliberately wrote the ending "low-key, as though the story might still continue", but then he mentioned that his Kanzenban redraw where Goku gives Kinto'un to Uub was "meant to make it more clear that Goku's battles are over". Is he successful in these respective endeavours?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:03 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:00 pm
Is he successful in these respective endeavours?
I think the small changes within the Kanzenban make it a better ending. With that said though, I still think the way GT went about ending things is vastly better.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:45 am
5 seasons and 110 episodes is not “just getting started” like....what?

I’m glad Angel ended when it did. Season 5 was far and away my favorite best to end on a high note.
Angel was unexpectedly cancelled, there was definitely more story to tell. I'm not a fan of how goofy things became in Season Five or all of the budget cuts, but the season itself was supposed to be a "new beginning" for the series and usher in a new era. Five seasons used to be a lot, but that's changed in the years since. Now you have shows going on for 10, 15 years plus.

Most shows have a good 3-5 year run. Buffy’s 7th season was thoroughly mediocre and it was good that it ended then. I can think of quite a few shows were descent to mediocrity precedes unwatchability (Xena, Orange is the new Black, Community, and Family Guy come to mind)
Just because Season 7 was bad doesn't mean that the show's quality couldn't have recovered. With an all new showrunner or new writers or whatever, who knows how much longer it would have lasted. Peaks and valleys. Not like one big manga/anime story that peaks and then just declines.




As for EoZ, I thought it was clearly written as an epilogue. The narrator even stated such if I recall.

I think the ending feeling as uneventful as it does may be a reflection of the Boo Saga as a whole and Toriyama's state of mind at that point. If he had already exhausted himself during the Boo arc then it makes sense that the epilogue would feel just as lifeless and abrupt.

I also think that the anime version would have played out a bit differently had GT not been in the works. I suspect Toei would have added bits and pieces to give it more finality.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:38 pm

I love season 5. It's probably its strongest season. It works much better as the ending of something than as the beginning of a new chapter. Angel had fought as the underdog and now he's trying to fight the system from inside and ultimately realizes it's impossible to fight the enemy on their terms and win. And yes, the show was cancelled, but at most it had probably one more good year left. The ending feels abrupt but ultimately it ties things up really well, not plotwise but it absolutely sums up the theme of the show - always keep fighting. And I don't know what you're watching but with the exception of shows like Supernatural and Grey's Anatomy, most shows aren't going past a handful. And the few shows that do go 10-15 years it's not for the better.
Just because Season 7 was bad doesn't mean that the show's quality couldn't have recovered. With an all new showrunner or new writers or whatever, who knows how much longer it would have lasted. Peaks and valleys. Not like one big manga/anime story that peaks and then just declines.
Lighting in a bottle is a concept that seems to go in one ear and out the other here. It's not as simple as a new fresh showrunner, and no, it's not a matter of new writers. That Buffy room was like the 90s Chicago Bulls. Why do you insist that manga peaks and then declines like it's inherent to the medium but TV will have peaks and valleys? I agree that there are some cases where a show has a weak year and comes back really strong, like Friends, but again, that's rare.
Both end with the idea of the next gen of fighters taking over, and both end with the idea of the adventures still continuing (Goku flying off with Uub in Z, and Goku watching over everyone in GT).
I never got that sense from either ending. It wasn't about the next generation. It was always about Goku and his journey. Also, how was the next generation taking over? Goku left both times the undisputed king. It wasn't about them.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:11 pm

I’m gonna second Abed just because shows do go for 10-15 years doesn’t mean they should.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Planetnamek » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:02 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:11 pm
I’m gonna second Abed just because shows do go for 10-15 years doesn’t mean they should.
Yeah i'm surprised Supernatural lasted as long as it did. LOST sure as hell had no right to go on for as long as it did.
"Why run away from something you're not afraid of?" - Goku

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:27 pm

I get it from a work perspective. If you have a happy set, it could be very tempting to keep that going as long as possible. From everything I've heard, SPN has a very happy set. The cast and crew love each other. In DB, it was popular and that kind of success is hard to come by. It's very tempting for any artist to keep that going. I don't hold it against them. That said, from a story perspective keeping it going runs the risk of diluting it and maybe even ruining it. A bad ending can do incredible harm to even an otherwise good/great story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:05 am

Planetnamek wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:02 pm
Yeah i'm surprised Supernatural lasted as long as it did. LOST sure as hell had no right to go on for as long as it did.
An interesting interview I came across recently:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.radiot ... -plan/amp/

Damon Lindelof originally only wanted it to last three seasons but the studio wanted ten seasons due to its success so they came to an agreement for six with fewer episodes in later seasons. I wouldn't mind a novel or something revealing their original idea for the three seasons.

I have a lot of respect for authors who are willing to end their stories. The goal should be to tell a worthwhile story not exhaust every possible idea until it stops making money. Demon Slayer was the best selling manga series in 2019 and first series to outsell One Piece in 11 years but it ended this year. Attack on Titan was also in the top ten best selling and is expected to end this year. There might be some short spin-offs or something but unlikely those authors plan for another long-running sequel to them.

One thing I have thankful for is the recent trend towards shorter seasons which I think would've benefitted some series in the past.
https://www.theringer.com/tv/2017/8/4/1 ... -tv-season

It's also been happening in the anime industry. I'm really glad a lot of recent anime series used the seasonal format because it allows for more consistency and less of a need for filler. Honestly there were some series I wanted to give a chance until I saw they had several hundred episodes to catch up on.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:45 am

Just to counter balance this, here's a really fascinating read: https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/ ... g-tv-shows
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:51 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:45 am
Just to counter balance this, here's a really fascinating read: https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/ ... g-tv-shows
I do understand that concern. I guess it depends on perspective. I haven't watched a lot of TV aside from sitcoms and some serialized (right term?) shows like Lost and Prison Break. Someone like me probably wouldn't mind these changes in the industry since it would improve the ones I usually watch and they wouldn't be forced to reach a certain number of episodes each season.

The article I posted mention that popular sitcoms and police procedural are more likely to get renewed and didn't suffer as much of a decline in the number of episodes compared to other genres. There's also going to be some pros and cons for major changes like these. It's still early so we might not be sure which outweighs the other yet.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:02 am

Skar wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:05 am
I'm really glad a lot of recent anime series used the seasonal format because it allows for more consistency and less of a need for filler.
I completely agree, as it's a far more efficient method of adapting manga than the non-stop method used for DB and currently One Piece.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:39 am

Skar wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:51 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:45 am
Just to counter balance this, here's a really fascinating read: https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/ ... g-tv-shows
I do understand that concern. I guess it depends on perspective. I haven't watched a lot of TV aside from sitcoms and some serialized (right term?) shows like Lost and Prison Break. Someone like me probably wouldn't mind these changes in the industry since it would improve the ones I usually watch and they wouldn't be forced to reach a certain number of episodes each season.

The article I posted mention that popular sitcoms and police procedural are more likely to get renewed and didn't suffer as much of a decline in the number of episodes compared to other genres. There's also going to be some pros and cons for major changes like these. It's still early so we might not be sure which outweighs the other yet.
I don't think it's as simple as what outweighs what. There's more than enough room for plenty of different approaches to storytelling including longer seasons that tell more episodic stories. I love serialized storytelling as much as the next person but that has its limits if the seasons are treated as one long movie. I've seen enough now that my preference is even in a serialized structure, I prefer that each episode have a central problem that needs to be solved. Breaking Bad is the ultimate example of this. Even though it's serialized, each episode has a problem the characters need to solve. To keep this about DB, even though it's heavily serialized, I like when each episode has some sort of unity, like a phase of the battle. For example, an entire episode devoted to Goku and Freeza warming up in the battle and testing each other.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:42 am

Skar wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:51 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:45 am
Just to counter balance this, here's a really fascinating read: https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/ ... g-tv-shows
I do understand that concern. I guess it depends on perspective. I haven't watched a lot of TV aside from sitcoms and some serialized (right term?) shows like Lost and Prison Break. Someone like me probably wouldn't mind these changes in the industry since it would improve the ones I usually watch and they wouldn't be forced to reach a certain number of episodes each season.

The article I posted mention that popular sitcoms and police procedural are more likely to get renewed and didn't suffer as much of a decline in the number of episodes compared to other genres. There's also going to be some pros and cons for major changes like these. It's still early so we might not be sure which outweighs the other yet.
Very interesting articles, i've been noticing that far too many promising shows are getting axed way too soon since this whole streaming-revolution started, yeah there's a few shows that have dragged on for far longer then they should have(i'm amazed Grey's Anatomy is still going, for me any interest in that show died along with Patrick Dempsey's character) but those were always more the exception then the rule.

Part of the problem is even on network TV these days there's a lack of patience and leeway among TV execs to let shows grow their audiences like they used to, hell many long-running shows were not ratings juggernauts straight out of the gate. Everybody Loves Raymond for example took several months for ratings to pick up, but sticking with that show paid off big time for CBS. Nowadays if a show does not do gangbusters numbers right from the start, the network will kick it to the curb(hell sometimes even shows that did start with big numbers like Terra Nova couldn't avoid being cancelled). There's so many cancelled network shows over the past few years that could've easily been long runners if they'd only been given more of a chance(Animal Practice comes to mind).

I mostly watched sitcoms for the longest time, though i've been getting more into crime dramas lately. I find myself waiting for shows to end before jumping into them(that was a result of me watching Two and a Half Men before Sheen's abrupt firing, I just couldn't accept Ashton Kutcher as his replacement so my interest in that show went away, though I do plan on watching the Sheen-less seasons at some point).

It does seem like long-running animated shows are more common in Japan then over here, the idea of a non-sitcom animated show like Detective Conan running for over 20+ years over here is virtually unthinkable.
"Why run away from something you're not afraid of?" - Goku

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:28 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:39 am
I don't think it's as simple as what outweighs what. There's more than enough room for plenty of different approaches to storytelling including longer seasons that tell more episodic stories.
To be honest I haven't seen many recent shows but I imagine this format won't disappear completely. I know some Netflix shows have gone for longer than five seasons so they likely would've had some more standalone episodes. I realize it's far less often than before since only a handful of shows reach enough episodes to do that.

The industry adapts to the audiences' preferences. This new trend is still evolving so it might change if studios realize there's still a major audience for these types of shows. I'm just saying from the perspective of someone who hasn't much TV and usually binged shows since I didn't have the channels to watch them when they aired that I didn't mind these changes.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:25 pm

My issue with just listening to customers and reading and interpreting data is that it can give a false idea of what audiences are willing to consume. It can tell you what they have watched but not necessarily what they will watch. It doesn't allow for many new ideas.

A big problem I have with this approach of just listening to audiences and giving them what they want beyond not allowing for new ideas, is audiences will binge on something until it becomes stale.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:10 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:25 pm
My issue with just listening to customers and reading and interpreting data is that it can give a false idea of what audiences are willing to consume. It can tell you what they have watched but not necessarily what they will watch. It doesn't allow for many new ideas.

A big problem I have with this approach of just listening to audiences and giving them what they want beyond not allowing for new ideas, is audiences will binge on something until it becomes stale.
Not to mention audiences don't always know what they want, they'll tell you they want one thing and then you give them the thing and it turns out to not be as succesful as people thought it would be(Snakes on a Plane comes to mind). Hell I didn't know I wanted an animated series about a talking horse dealing with depression until I actually got one, no amount of audience feedback was ever going to get Bojack Horseman greenlit, that was something that could only be thought of by someone who was doing something more then just trying to give people what they want.

Not to mention this attitude can become downright toxic when it's applied to areas like animated shows aimed at kids, as you get mind-rotting garbage like Teen Titans Go that does not challenge kids in any way and instead treats them like drooling morons and is only made because suits are convinced this is what kids want, and then that in turn leads to others trying to rip-off it's successes(and that's how you get abominations like Thundercats Roar that fail to appeal anyone).

Jim Sterling did two pretty good episodes of Jimquisition on the notion of test-audiences supposedly telling execs what they wanted but the results not quite panning out the way execs thought they would, in this instance he was talking about video games, but you can just as easily apply his points to movies and TV shows as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW9KAJiV7PI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aGNqw0mDm8
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:24 pm

Planetnamek wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:10 pm
as you get mind-rotting garbage like Teen Titans Go that does not challenge kids in any way and instead treats them like drooling morons and is only made because suits are convinced this is what kids want,
I’m not really a huge fan but it’s highly successful ratings would indicate it is what kids want?

The movie (which I haven’t seen and am not inclined to) also did well critically .


I dunno I feel like the only people who hate Teen Titans Go are people who were overly attached to the old series. And the old series still exist. 65 episodes and a tv movie.

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