Unpopular DB opinions

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Kunzait_83
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:12 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:One of my problems with GT is how it's a shonen, but most of the main cast feels too old for this genre. I don't think a big part of the audience, especially the young target demographic, feels excited in seeing a shonen filled with old people. The lame casual designs that most characters have don't help. It aged horribly.

It's one of the things Super will always have over GT. The main cast still looks young and fresh, just how a shonen is supposed to be. That charm of having a charismatic cast is something that was lost in GT, so make the adult main character become a kid again was a good idea.
There's been a GIGANTIC amount of Shonen (exceedingly popular and successful Shonen at that) that centered around primarily older characters with hardly a young kid anywhere in sight. City Hunter was one of Weekly Shonen Jump's most popular series, and it centered around the comedic/hard boiled cases of private investigator Ryo Saeba, along with a large cast of dangerous criminals and femme fatales. Kid characters, not really so much of a factor at all. Fist of the North Star had Lin and Bat, but they were largely fulfilling the C-3PO and R2-D2 "tag along observer" roles: all the other major characters were (decidedly older and weathered looking) men (and the occasional older woman) aged anywhere from their late 20s (at the youngest) and up. And by the end of the series in its last few arcs, there's a big time jump and Lin and Bat end up growing up into full grown adults anyway.

Space Adventure Cobra, almost every single character (major or minor) tends to be 30-something or older. Bastard!! was a gothic medieval fantasy focused on largely all adults with no real prominence of kids anywhere. Similar deal with JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders' Kujo Jotaro is a high school-aged delinquent, but otherwise much of the story is overwhelmingly adult-fixated with most characters ranging from their late 20s/early 30s to middle aged. Rumiko Takahashi's Mermaid Saga largely focused on characters who were ageless and immortal, but were generally frozen somewhere well into their adult years, with one of the few notable child-aged characters in it being a disturbing, homicidal psychopath.

There are countless dozens upon dozens many more examples, but you get the idea. And none of these examples above are any which way obscure either: with the sole exception (among my above examples) of Mermaid Saga, these were all incredibly iconic and best-selling Weekly Shonen Jump mega-franchises.

Generally speaking though, I think the idea that "kids need other kid characters to relate to" is a very silly and dumb idea, and one that's often proven very much incorrect in many cases. With some notable exceptions (Goku and Gohan as kids in DB being a couple) oftentimes kids don't really care about following other child-aged characters, and instead are more interested in adult figures to look up to and aspire to be like. This is especially evident in Western superhero comics where oftentimes kids will find the child sidekick characters lame and tiresome and will instead be more invested in the decidedly adult main hero. But for a long time this kind of sentiment was also plainly and plentifully found in a lot of the Japanese Shonen that was popular and more prevalent up through to the mid/late 90s.

The predisposition for Shonen to fixate on largely and predominantly child or teenage characters is without question much, MUCH more of a millennial thing.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Weejus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:27 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Weejus wrote:Ribrianne was really cool and she deserved better.
I'll do you one better: Ribrianne NEEDS to be FighterZ DLC. She's one of the best possible options. Unique moves, quirky aesthetic, cinematic flair (imagine her intro as just the magical girl transformation), body type shared with only one other character (Fat Buu, who's not very good), potential for colourful banter, and most importantly, the fun of getting to beat people with a character hardly anyone will play.
That's what I'm talking about! She'd be amazing, and I'd instantly main her (though I'd still not drop my favourite, #16). Sadly, the chances of her getting in are slim to none, unless, say, they did an entire second run of DLC that was ToP-themed (which I assume would be Jiren, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale, Frost, Bergamo, Paparoni et al (Aniraza), and Ribrianne, I dunno). Shame this is kind of the end of the road for the character, outside of a few potential game appearances from now on.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hawk9211 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:57 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:One of my problems with GT is how it's a shonen, but most of the main cast feels too old for this genre. I don't think a big part of the audience, especially the young target demographic, feels excited in seeing a shonen filled with old people. The lame casual designs that most characters have don't help. It aged horribly.

It's one of the things Super will always have over GT. The main cast still looks young and fresh, just how a shonen is supposed to be. That charm of having a charismatic cast is something that was lost in GT, so make the adult main character become a kid again was a good idea.
There's been a GIGANTIC amount of Shonen (exceedingly popular and successful Shonen at that) that centered around primarily older characters with hardly a young kid anywhere in sight. City Hunter was one of Weekly Shonen Jump's most popular series, and it centered around the comedic/hard boiled cases of private investigator Ryo Saeba, along with a large cast of dangerous criminals and femme fatales. Kid characters, not really so much of a factor at all. Fist of the North Star had Lin and Bat, but they were largely fulfilling the C-3PO and R2-D2 "tag along observer" roles: all the other major characters were (decidedly older and weathered looking) men (and the occasional older woman) aged anywhere from their late 20s (at the youngest) and up. And by the end of the series in its last few arcs, there's a big time jump and Lin and Bat end up growing up into full grown adults anyway.

Space Adventure Cobra, almost every single character (major or minor) tends to be 30-something or older. Bastard!! was a gothic medieval fantasy focused on largely all adults with no real prominence of kids anywhere. Similar deal with JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders' Kujo Jotaro is a high school-aged delinquent, but otherwise much of the story is overwhelmingly adult-fixated with most characters ranging from their late 20s/early 30s to middle aged. Rumiko Takahashi's Mermaid Saga largely focused on characters who were ageless and immortal, but were generally frozen somewhere well into their adult years, with one of the few notable child-aged characters in it being a disturbing, homicidal psychopath.

There are countless dozens upon dozens many more examples, but you get the idea. And none of these examples above are any which way obscure either: with the sole exception (among my above examples) of Mermaid Saga, these were all incredibly iconic and best-selling Weekly Shonen Jump mega-franchises.

Generally speaking though, I think the idea that "kids need other kid characters to relate to" is a very silly and dumb idea, and one that's often proven very much incorrect in many cases. With some notable exceptions (Goku and Gohan as kids in DB being a couple) oftentimes kids don't really care about following other child-aged characters, and instead are more interested in adult figures to look up to and aspire to be like. This is especially evident in Western superhero comics where oftentimes kids will find the child sidekick characters lame and tiresome and will instead be more invested in the decidedly adult main hero. But for a long time this kind of sentiment was also plainly and plentifully found in a lot of the Japanese Shonen that was popular and more prevalent up through to the mid/late 90s.

The predisposition for Shonen to fixate on largely and predominantly child or teenage characters is without question much, MUCH more of a millennial thing.
Off-topic,but are you caught up with super?I would really like to see you in super section more often.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:26 pm

Weejus wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:
Weejus wrote:Ribrianne was really cool and she deserved better.
I'll do you one better: Ribrianne NEEDS to be FighterZ DLC. She's one of the best possible options. Unique moves, quirky aesthetic, cinematic flair (imagine her intro as just the magical girl transformation), body type shared with only one other character (Fat Buu, who's not very good), potential for colourful banter, and most importantly, the fun of getting to beat people with a character hardly anyone will play.
That's what I'm talking about! She'd be amazing, and I'd instantly main her (though I'd still not drop my favourite, #16). Sadly, the chances of her getting in are slim to none, unless, say, they did an entire second run of DLC that was ToP-themed (which I assume would be Jiren, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale, Frost, Bergamo, Paparoni et al (Aniraza), and Ribrianne, I dunno). Shame this is kind of the end of the road for the character, outside of a few potential game appearances from now on.
I bought Dragon Ball FighterZ when it came out and while it is a Good Game I don't get to much into it...........HOWEVER if Ribrianne somehow become a Playable DLC Character They Indeed HELL YES, SIGN ME UP For Mastering My Girl and Making her my Main, My Life will be full with More Joy then it is Now!!!!! :mrgreen: :clap:

Indeed that is my hope to happen Kataphrut and would do good right by the character and for her fans, she be Amazing to see how she is done in the Game!

But I don't think this is the end of the Road for her either Weejus, I think like Jiren, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale and the other New U characters they will be back if and once a new series happens if it is following up the story to Super, so Ribrianne and the other U2 main characters I am Sure we will see Again! :thumbup:
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:59 pm

CJStriker_CBR wrote:
I bought Dragon Ball FighterZ when it came out and while it is a Good Game I don't get to much into it...........HOWEVER if Ribrianne somehow become a Playable DLC Character They Indeed HELL YES, SIGN ME UP For Mastering My Girl and Making her my Main, My Life will be full with More Joy then it is Now!!!!! :mrgreen: :clap:

Indeed that is my hope to happen Kataphrut and would do good right by the character and for her fans, she be Amazing to see how she is done in the Game!

But I don't think this is the end of the Road for her either Weejus, I think like Jiren, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale and the other New U characters they will be back if and once a new series happens if it is following up the story to Super, so Ribrianne and the other U2 main characters I am Sure we will see Again! :thumbup:
Question for you, man. Would you prefer her regular form or transformed state to be in the game? If you could only have one and not the other.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:33 pm

Vegeta should have stayed dead on Namek.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Spider-Man » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:23 pm

I prefer Fat Boo English voice over Japanese
Kataphrut wrote:
Weejus wrote:Ribrianne was really cool and she deserved better.
I'll do you one better: Ribrianne NEEDS to be FighterZ DLC. She's one of the best possible options. Unique moves, quirky aesthetic, cinematic flair (imagine her intro as just the magical girl transformation), body type shared with only one other character (Fat Buu, who's not very good), potential for colourful banter, and most importantly, the fun of getting to beat people with a character hardly anyone will play.
I would love to see Ribrianne in Fighterz her body shape is unique and her attacks are cool.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:00 pm

Weejus wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:
Weejus wrote:Ribrianne was really cool and she deserved better.
I'll do you one better: Ribrianne NEEDS to be FighterZ DLC. She's one of the best possible options. Unique moves, quirky aesthetic, cinematic flair (imagine her intro as just the magical girl transformation), body type shared with only one other character (Fat Buu, who's not very good), potential for colourful banter, and most importantly, the fun of getting to beat people with a character hardly anyone will play.
That's what I'm talking about! She'd be amazing, and I'd instantly main her (though I'd still not drop my favourite, #16). Sadly, the chances of her getting in are slim to none, unless, say, they did an entire second run of DLC that was ToP-themed (which I assume would be Jiren, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale, Frost, Bergamo, Paparoni et al (Aniraza), and Ribrianne, I dunno). Shame this is kind of the end of the road for the character, outside of a few potential game appearances from now on.
I am honestly surprised they haven't leaned harder into ToP stuff. I thought Jiren, the Saiyan girls and UI Goku at the very least would be rushing to get out the door. But nobody from the ToP is allegedly in the first wave of DLC except maybe Park Ranger 17. And the second leaked list (whose credibility is admittedly suspect) only includes Kale and Caulifla (along with Cabba for some reason) coming out AFTER the likes of Raditz and Zarbon.

Say what you will about the ToP, but there are so many fun picks to choose from there, the hype is still big for it at the moment, and after some OG Dragon Ball characters like Kid Goku and Roshi (who incidentally shot back to prominence because of the ToP), those are the ones I'm most keen for.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:13 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
CJStriker_CBR wrote:
I bought Dragon Ball FighterZ when it came out and while it is a Good Game I don't get to much into it...........HOWEVER if Ribrianne somehow become a Playable DLC Character They Indeed HELL YES, SIGN ME UP For Mastering My Girl and Making her my Main, My Life will be full with More Joy then it is Now!!!!! :mrgreen: :clap:

Indeed that is my hope to happen Kataphrut and would do good right by the character and for her fans, she be Amazing to see how she is done in the Game!

But I don't think this is the end of the Road for her either Weejus, I think like Jiren, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale and the other New U characters they will be back if and once a new series happens if it is following up the story to Super, so Ribrianne and the other U2 main characters I am Sure we will see Again! :thumbup:
Question for you, man. Would you prefer her regular form or transformed state to be in the game? If you could only have one and not the other.
Good Question Dbzfan94, Thanks for Asking.

While I love her Human State it would be an easy Pick to choose and that is her Transformed state as Ribrianne! :angel:

It is her Hero form, her Iconic Form, the one with all the power, style and most of all it is her Magical Girl Form!

It makes sense on every level and in every way. It be cool to fight with Human Form Brianne, but if I had to choose from it be Ribrianne, that is when she is a Champion and Goddess of her Universe, it has the Same Flair and Love for me as UI-Goku has for other fans! :thumbup:

Be cool if their was a moment where she goes Super Ribrianne form too. :wink:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by FortuneSSJ » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:20 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: There's been a GIGANTIC amount of Shonen (exceedingly popular and successful Shonen at that) that centered around primarily older characters with hardly a young kid anywhere in sight.
Talking about your examples:

City Hunter last anime ended in 1991.
Hokuto no Ken last anime ended in 1988.
Space Adventure Cobra anime ended in 1983...It got 18 episodes through OVAs (2008-2010) and that's it.
Jojo is still going but it wasn't nowhere near as popular as Dragon Ball and Slam Dunk back then, and also isn't when compared to newer shonens like One Piece, Naruto and Bleach.

Things change. Different times, different audience. What worked in the past, may not work in a different era.
Timeslot is not the only reason why Dragon Ball Super barely has blood.

You gave me your examples, I will give you mine - Saint Seiya, Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Slam Dunk, Hajime no Ippo and Captain Tsubasa.

6 successful shonens from the same era than DB, which have a main cast that feels young and fresh. In Kenshin case, he debuts as 28 years old but his design and the rest of the cast still make them appealing. I can't say the same thing about most GT characters from the main cast.
nickzambuto wrote: That's interesting. Was making Goku a kid Toriyama's idea or Toei's? It makes sense that Toriyama would draw the concept art for his characters in their most natural progression, where everyone is old and dressed casually, without any mind for expectations or marketing or target audience, then Toei came along and thought we're going to need at least one kid in order to offset all these old people.
It was Toei. You can read more about their ideas for GT here.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:24 pm

I don't get your point at all. With the exception of Vegeta, the main cast are young or appear young. What about stories with older characters do you believe doesn't resonate with younger audiences?
Things change. Different times, different audience. What worked in the past, may not work in a different era.
Such as?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SuperCyan2 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:06 pm

Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection F, Dragon Ball Super should have never happened and Norihito Sumitomo should have never been hired as the official composer for Dragon Ball.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:57 pm

SuperCyan2 wrote:Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection F, Dragon Ball Super should have never happened and Norihito Sumitomo should have never been hired as the official composer for Dragon Ball.
I second this.

To be honest, all this new DB stuff is what I'd classify as "unnecessary sequel(s)".
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Sailor Haumea » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:43 am

The Budokai series from start to end is rancid shit, with the music being the only redeeming quality. They're HUGELY overrated.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zephyr » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:40 am

Sailor Haumea wrote:The Budokai series from start to end is rancid shit, with the music being the only redeeming quality. They're HUGELY overrated.
They might not be terribly deep as fighting games, but that's hardly sufficient to call anything "rancid shit".

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:22 am

Zephyr wrote:
Sailor Haumea wrote:The Budokai series from start to end is rancid shit, with the music being the only redeeming quality. They're HUGELY overrated.
They might not be terribly deep as fighting games, but that's hardly sufficient to call anything "rancid shit".
Nah, I think rancid shit's fairly warranted for most of these games. Budokai's 1 through 3 in particular are downright unplayable. Infinite World is only VERY MILDLY less crappy, Burst Limit is a complete nothing, and the Shin Budokai games only just baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarely managed to squeak into the realm of just this side of passable by the skin of their teeth.

The series is dogshit, always has been, and its been kept afloat in the eyes of fandom throughout the years 100% entirely by A) nostalgia and B) a playerbase who, by and large at least, generally doesn't care about fighting games in a broader sense nor knows much of anything about them and just wants a mindless button mash-fest (with no special moves and no real combo system to speak of) that simply has the DBZ cast's cel-shaded faces plastered onto it, confusing a large roster and tedious unlockables with "depth".

The overwhelming majority of Budokai's fans, by their own admission, had glommed onto it when they were only very, very small children who (in many cases) had never played any other real fighting games beforehand and had nothing at all to critically compare it to, lacking in both context and standards. Many of them today simply continue to let the series skate on by with a pass either out of lingering sentimental goodwill from those childhood memories (an ongoing trend in general with this fanbase) or having never at any point since grown into "real" fighting games.

Everything that makes the Budokai games such utter failures is all the more highlighted now with the presence of serious, legit Dragon Ball fighting games like FighterZ and even Super DBZ well before it. And that's just within the "modern" context, setting aside much older DBZ fighting games like Super Battle, Hyper Dimension, and most of the Butouden series, all of which also thoroughly eat Budokai's lunch.

When in order to find something worse, you have to scrape as low as Taiketsu and Final Bout... yeah, that doesn't really speak too well for these games at all.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:57 am

SuperCyan2 wrote:Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection F, Dragon Ball Super should have never happened and Norihito Sumitomo should have never been hired as the official composer for Dragon Ball.
Agreed. As much as I like Dragon Ball it should have stayed dead and just lived on through video games

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zephyr » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:31 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Budokai's 1 through 3 in particular are downright unplayable.
I think that's absolutely hyperbole. They're not broken. They're not mechanically confusing. They're not janky. A mindless button mash-fest they may be, but the bar can be much, much, much lower. And no, I'm not saying that in the "see, it could be worse, therefore we need more of this!" sort of way. I'm saying that in a "see, it could be worse, therefore a term like rancid dogshit, which by all connotations sounds like literally the worst thing imaginable in literally every single way, isn't descriptively apt" sort of way.

As shallow button mash fests, these are perfectly fine games. You can easily dismiss that kind of sub-genre as inherently more shallow and less worthwhile, and I'd agree (as there's less for the player to learn and be challenged by, in a gameplay sense). But it's fairly playable, in that it's easy to pick up and play, within that realm itself. Junk food and dogshit are not equivalent, and treating them as such is needlessly black and white thinking. These games can be reasonably faulted and dismissed without hyperbole.

Sagas is more fitting for a label like "rancid dogshit", where not only is it an incredibly shallow button mash fest, but it's also janky and broken as all hell. And I have nostalgia for Sagas just as I do for Budokai, so that's not sufficient for giving something a pass here. There's plenty I'm nostalgic for, but I'm always more than willing and able to recognize the faults and shortcomings of these things.

A game like Budokai is nothing admirable, gameplay wise, but it's also nothing whose existence should offend to the degree that something like Sagas should. At least not in the context of the games proper. I suppose the disproportional negative reaction to them is understandable, given the disproportional positive reaction that they've garnered in this community for so long. A pendulum effect, if you will. :P

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:49 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Sailor Haumea wrote:The Budokai series from start to end is rancid shit, with the music being the only redeeming quality. They're HUGELY overrated.
They might not be terribly deep as fighting games, but that's hardly sufficient to call anything "rancid shit".
It's not my personal choice for a fighting game (you know what that is) but Budokai 3 actually has a following among fighting game fans in the US.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SuperCyan2 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:53 pm

Weejus wrote:Ribrianne was really cool and she deserved better.
What the shit. That Ribrianne character is actually a Dragon Ball character? Just when I thought Jiren was one of the worst looking characters this is a thing.
Account no longer in use since 03/31/2018.

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