How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by TonyTheTiger » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:51 pm

Fox666 wrote:Well, you don't see people taking in account the Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings films over the books, right?
Actually, they do it constantly. It's called adaptation displacement. Maybe not Harry Potter and LOTR just yet, but films often displace the original works in terms of the popular understanding of "canon." Frankenstein, any Disney film based on a fairy tale, and Jaws are just a couple of examples. And few people recognize James Bond as anything other than a movie hero. In fact, it's a super old phenomenon since many of Shakespeare's plays were based on much older stories.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Fox666 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:14 pm

That's because they essentially created a different series.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Rocketman » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:19 pm

Fox666 wrote:Dragon Ball is a japanese series, with a japanese pronounce. It doesn't matter how much you want the pronounce to change, or how many people want it, it won't change.
The Illiad is a Greek work, with Greek pronunciation. It doesn't matter how much you want the pronunciation to change, or how many people want it, it won't change.

"Zevs". Achilleus. Haides. Apollon.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Fox666 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:47 pm

I don't think you can compare both cases. Perhaps the words I choose makes it sounds I am a little too radical. But frankly, there isn't a good reason to change the name of a character in Dragon Ball.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by OutlawTorn » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:14 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:But as for charm versus strike, I can say that's pretty simple. For Toriyama, it IS charming. He owns up to it with a silly, "Well, yup. I don't know what I'm talking about, but it sure was fun, wasn't it?" But for Lucas, it's, "Oh. Well, I meant to do that, I always meant to do it like that, and if you don't like it, that's your problem. These are my movies."
I can see why Lucas' remarks wouldn't sit well with people, though I think at least some of it may simply be him fed up with the constant complaining slung his way for anything and everything people don't like. Just because we are a fan of a particular work does not give us any sort of "ownership" over it which the creator must satisfy lest he be forever vilified, Star Wars is his property and he is free to craft the story as he wishes. (I get the arguments that he can't stop making adjustments with each subsequent release, it's overkill) It's a representation of the "entitlement complex" people tend to have, after demanding for the original versions of the original trilogy be released on DVD and then complaining about it being from Laserdisc masters. I've never had a Laserdisc but from my understanding the quality is significantly better than VHS.

In the same vein, if Toriyama were so inclined, he could make adjustments to aspects of the manga he wasn't happy with and, while people may not particularly like any changes, it's his story.

I kind of liken the whole "Sigh-an"/"Say-an" thing as to whether "Sith" is pronounced "Sih-th" or "See-th" but, in Japanese, the pronunciation of "Sith" is closer to the second example, which is about as "correct" a pronunciation as "say-an" is for Saiyan. It would be too easy to just throw Fox666's statement around as a blanket justification, but isn't the real important thing to keep in mind that the meaning is retained despite a difference in pronunciation?

For the record, though, I think the only reason the "say-an" pronunciation is even an issue is because it was the way most people who watch the English version were introduced to the word and it persisted for so long, unlike Goku being called "Zero" or Karin being "Whiskers the Wonder Cat" from the Harmony Gold dub. Had FUNimation gone with the "sigh-an" pronunciation once they took the dubbing in house, "say-an" could have fallen into a similar form of obscurity.
Fox666 wrote:I don't think you can compare both cases. Perhaps the words I choose makes it sounds I am a little too radical. But frankly, there isn't a good reason to change the name of a character in Dragon Ball.
It shouldn't just be limited to Dragon Ball. If changing names of Dragon Ball characters is unacceptable, then changing the name of any dub of any property is unacceptable. Dragon Ball isn't more "sacred" than any other show out there. I can list a number of names from the Japanese dub of Transformers (The Transformers franchise, not the Diaclone/Microman lines from which it was based) which were changed:

Original / Japanese Dub

Cybertron / Cybertron (pronounced: "Seibertron" and often spelled as such to distinguish from the faction)
Autobot / Cybertron
Decepticon / Destron
Optimus Prime / Convoy
Rodimus Prime / Rodimus Convoy
Blaster / Broadcast
Kup / Cha
Devastator / Devastor
Hot Rod / Hot Rodimus
Metroplex / Metroflex
Trypticon / Dinosaurer

Waspinator / Waspeeter
Rattrap / Rattle
Cheetor / Cheetus
Terrorsaur / Terrorsaurer

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Pokewhiz7 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:17 pm

Toriyama actually did make some adjustments when the Kanzenban came out, such as drawing armbands on Tenshinhan in a panel where they were originally missing, redrawing a chapter title page where Bulma was originally smoking, and I think correcting the "Well Come" sign. Then of course, there's the new ending.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:23 pm

OutlawTorn wrote:It's a representation of the "entitlement complex" people tend to have, after demanding for the original versions of the original trilogy be released on DVD and then complaining about it being from Laserdisc masters. I've never had a Laserdisc but from my understanding the quality is significantly better than VHS.
And significantly worse than DVD or Blu-ray. Plus, the masters were terrible on their own, featuring bad coloring, terrible DVNR smearing, and severe ghosting issues. So "entitlement complex" only applies to people who complain about that if it applies to people who complained about the orange bricks because it's the exact same scenario: a company trying to make money from an incredibly inferior product that required next to no effort to produce and yet was still worse than if they had just left it alone. Hell, it's worse because at least the orange bricks weren't being endorsed by the people who made the show and were made from masters a decade and a half out of date.

Also, I don't buy into the whole "auteur theory" of creation, at least not when it comes to films (because it's nearly impossible to create one alone), and especially not when it comes from someone who sits on a film preservation board, and who has testified in front of Congress that altering films is damaging our cultural heritage and is morally wrong!

It's funny because I've always considered Star Wars and DB fandom to be quite similar to one another (and I swear I'm not just saying that to tie this back into an allowed topic; I seriously have always thought this): on DB, you have the original version fans debating against the FUNi dub fans. And in Star Wars, you have original version fans debating against special edition fans. It's pretty much the same thing: purists versus seekers of "improvement." People anally nit-picking against any change, major or minor, versus people who defend any change the rights holder pulls out of the aether. So, yeah, George Lucas is the equivalent of FUNimation... from a certain point of view. :wink:

And before you ask, yes, it does annoy me that Toriyama altered parts of the Kanzenban, however minor some of them may be. And it's been my sincerest hope that I'm able to track down the original versions before I reach those points in my Dragon Ball Dissection videos.
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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by OutlawTorn » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:00 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:It's funny because I've always considered Star Wars and DB fandom to be quite similar to one another (and I swear I'm not just saying that to tie this back into an allowed topic; I seriously have always thought this): on DB, you have the original version fans debating against the FUNi dub fans. And in Star Wars, you have original version fans debating against special edition fans. It's pretty much the same thing: purists versus seekers of "improvement." People anally nit-picking against any change, major or minor, versus people who defend any change the rights holder pulls out of the aether.
Yeah, I can see that as the extremist version of both sides of the coin. Personally speaking, as someone who primarily watches dubs unless they are downright horrible*, I would be perfectly happy with an accurate adaptation with nothing altered except that the dialogue is in English, of course.

*an example of such a dub would be the dub produced for the Japanese Transformers series Headmasters, Masterforce and Victory which are considerably worse than the initial FUNimation in-house dub of DBZ. With those, I'm glad the domestic DVDs are sub only.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:49 am

Fox666 wrote:I don't think you can compare both cases. Perhaps the words I choose makes it sounds I am a little too radical. But frankly, there isn't a good reason to change the name of a character in Dragon Ball.
And I agree. I'm generally against that sort of change in Anime dubs. I feel that companies like FUNImation should try to stick to the original version in all aspects as much as possible. But that's just my opinion, and there are perfectly good arguments against it. Your point has very little bearing on the central argument, though.


A handful of scribes in the Middle Ages mistakenly started spelling the word "scythe" with a "c", which I don't like because that spelling had no historical precedent before then and now we have yet another word that contains a silent letter in Modern English. All because of some guy's stupid change! Even though "scythe" is a fairly uncommon word, I can't omit the "c" in its spelling because the consensus is that it should be included. The modern spelling is "wrong" in that the Anglo-Saxons (the progenitors of English in some sense) originally didn't use it. But presto-changeo.


Maybe some of these arguments are somewhat hard for you to accept because you're not a native English speaker and in your mother tongue there aren't many examples of this kind of thing (or possibly none at all). I can think of heaps of examples of lexical "mutations" that have become standard through popular use, of which I have only given one.


But they changed it ...

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by SilverPlaqueVII » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:21 pm

OutlawTorn wrote:It shouldn't just be limited to Dragon Ball. If changing names of Dragon Ball characters is unacceptable, then changing the name of any dub of any property is unacceptable. Dragon Ball isn't more "sacred" than any other show out there. I can list a number of names from the Japanese dub of Transformers (The Transformers franchise, not the Diaclone/Microman lines from which it was based) which were changed:

Original / Japanese Dub

Cybertron / Cybertron (pronounced: "Seibertron" and often spelled as such to distinguish from the faction)
Autobot / Cybertron
Decepticon / Destron
Optimus Prime / Convoy
Rodimus Prime / Rodimus Convoy
Blaster / Broadcast
Kup / Cha
Devastator / Devastor
Hot Rod / Hot Rodimus
Metroplex / Metroflex
Trypticon / Dinosaurer

Waspinator / Waspeeter
Rattrap / Rattle
Cheetor / Cheetus
Terrorsaur / Terrorsaurer
I really like it. That also goes for Sailor Moon, Detective Conan, and Tetsujin 28-go. More specifically, the conventions could be typically corrected and Americanized under such typical circumstances (no "broken language" needed) .

That could never be meant for "Tsufuru-jin" which is exactly meaning "Tuffle" or "Ginyu Tokusentai" as "Ginyu Force".

Tetsujin 28-go / Giganator
Shotaro Kaneda | Jimmy Sparks
Dr. Shikishima | Dr. Bob Brilliant
Inspector Otsuka | Inspector Ignatz J. Blooper
Kenji Murasame | Dick Strong

Sailor Moon
Usagi Tsukino | Serena
Ami Mizuno | Amy
Rei Hino | Raye
Makoto Kino | Lita
Minako Aino | Mina
Haruka Tenoh | Amara
Michiru Kaioh | Michelle
Setsuna Meioh | Trista
Mamoru Chiba | Darien
Chibiusa | Rini

Detective Conan / Case Closed
Shinichi Kudo | Jimmy Kudo
Ran Mori | Rachel Moore
Kogoro Mori | Richard Moore
Kaito Kuroba | Phantom Thief Kid
Jelo Gutierrez Cantos (Dr. Fresh)
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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by The Tori-bot » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:56 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:A similar thing has happened with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Just popping in to say that even though pretty much everyone pronounces it "Jeck-ull", that doesn't make it any less wrong. That's always been one of my big pet peeves; it's his name, it shouldn't really evolve in the same way as other words, you're either saying it right or you're not. The TV show Jekyll actually makes a point of this (spoilers for said show): all of the characters in the modern day use the now-standard incorrect pronunciation, but in the flashbacks to the time of the original Dr Jekyll, Robert Louis Stevenson pronounces it correctly.
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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by TripleRach » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:59 pm

Some of the examples that people have cited are so old that the damage was done before our parents or even grandparents were born. And some of them are so common that they've been in dictionaries and encyclopedias all this time, too. I don't necessarily like those either, but attempting to change them at this point would require omnipotence, and I'm not there yet.

Not every battle is that hopeless, though. Plenty of people still fight common errors like "I could care less," "for all intensive purposes," "would of," and the mass misuse of "ironically." Including me, when I encounter them. So I think it's ridiculous to roll over and ignore every error just because languages evolve. But you do have to pick your battles, I guess.

And modern pop culture phrases seem like a much easier battle to fight than anything from Shakespeare or Ancient Greece. I've been complaining about "Luke, I am your father" since I was about 10 years old, when I saw Empire Strikes Back for the first time. It might not matter in the long run, but I can still try.
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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by OutlawTorn » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:10 pm

For a more modern example and, perhaps an even stranger one is America changing words which were already English for alternative English words, at least one of which completely eliminated the intended meaning. I am, of course, referring to "Harry Potter & the Sorcerer's Stone" which, in English, everywhere outside of the USA is "Harry Potter & the Philosopher's Stone" including the movies.

Nicholas Flamel didn't spend his life trying to create a "sorcerer's stone" and it's really the American editors to blame for thinking American reads are too stupid to know what a philosopher's stone is. I've heard such Americanizations disappeared as the books progressed (we got the unaltered books and movies in Canada), which is as it should be because it was never a book series about young witches and wizards in America but British witches and wizards. As there are some terms which are different between British and American English, the best solution would have been to include a glossary of terms which American readers may not have been familiar with.

In the end, though, with sigh-an vs. say-un it's like zed vs. zee. While it's pronounced "zee" in American English, it's "zed" almost everywhere else in English (just talking English here, not other languages), but even though American English was spun from British English you'll never convince Americans that "zed" is the proper pronunciation just as the reverse is true.

I definitely do think names should be preserved instead of Americanized (or "westernized," if you prefer) but the drawback I can see is there will always be a group of people who are so anal to constantly complain and/or mock the product if the name isn't pronounced exactly as it should.

I've come across places which were discussing the "Cardcaptors" version of Card Captor Sakura which would always harp on the fact that the name was pronounced "Suh-ker-ah." Then there's Outlaw Star, which... come to think of it, do people expect "Hot Ice" Hilda to be called "Hiruda" or Aisha Clanclan to be "Kurankuran" or Melfina as "Merufina" since that is how the names are pronounced in Japanese? I know Suzuka is pronounced incorrectly, as it's supposed to be more like "Suz'ka" but, from what I can see, despite some alternate pronunciations here and there, names are quite accurate.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:14 pm

Glad you brought up the Harry Potter examples as that's something that's always annoyed me. That is, the tendency to steamroll right over cultural differences as a way of making something more easily understood. Like you said, I read Harry Potter in part because it's fun, as an American, to get this look into British life, albeit a highly fictionalized life. And it drives me crazy that Scholastic, at least in the early days, tried to stamp out that British flavor by Americanizing words like "trainer," "jumper," etc. And that's when I fall into disagreement with the whole, "But the point is to give American readers/viewers the same experience, and they don't understand those concepts, so they have to be changed." I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. You know what I do/did when I would come across terms I didn't know? I'd find out what they meant. Or I'd figure it out through context, which really isn't that hard! And, hey, what do you know? I've learned something! What's the point of even experiencing foreign media if everything's been homogenized?

Now here's something I can get behind with George Lucas, or at least the younger George Lucas. He, like I, enjoyed foreign films when he was a young man, particularly Japanese films. And it always amazed him to watch a movie like Seven Samurai and have no idea what historical events or items or places were, and that he just had to figure them out. And he crafted the original Star Wars the same way: he just dropped you into a foreign world and expected you to figure out all the trappings without explaining them. In general, it's more fun that way, and it's more natural.

And for the record, I always refer to it as "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" even if no one else knows what I'm talking about. And I always read it that way in my head even when the text says otherwise. =P
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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:50 am

TripleRach wrote:
Not every battle is that hopeless, though. Plenty of people still fight common errors like "I could care less," "for all intensive purposes," "would of," and the mass misuse of "ironically." Including me, when I encounter them. So I think it's ridiculous to roll over and ignore every error just because languages evolve. But you do have to pick your battles, I guess.
I've not heard anyone use "for all intensive purposes" except rarely where folks cite it as a common error. Its incidence might increase in a few years, but usually people just say "virtually" or "effectively". "Couldn't care less" and "could care less" are both colloquial phrases (you won't see either in serious writing), so I don't see too big a problem there.


I doubt "would/could/should of" will be ever become standard because the way the preposition "of" is being used in that construction is really quite different from the way it normally is. But there's still a possibility it could develop another usage. The folks over at Merriam-Webster accept the "misuse" of "ironically" on the grounds that it was used that way as far back as the late nineteenth century or thereabouts. I used to find them too liberal at times, but a lot of other publications are beginning to share their views.


I think it's easy for us to say that the battle is not yet lost over "Saiyan" because we're in community centered on the original version. A lot of us know Japanese and where all the names come from. But elsewhere you'll find that things are very different.

The Tori-bot wrote:
Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:A similar thing has happened with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Just popping in to say that even though pretty much everyone pronounces it "Jeck-ull", that doesn't make it any less wrong. That's always been one of my big pet peeves; it's his name, it shouldn't really evolve in the same way as other words, you're either saying it right or you're not.
It really doesn't matter what type of word it is (proper noun, verb etc.) when it's part of pop culture or in popular use. It's probably not the best example, but it's only one I've given among many.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by desirecampbell » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:25 am

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:"Couldn't care less" and "could care less" are both colloquial phrases (you won't see either in serious writing), so I don't see too big a problem there.
No. One is a colloquialism, the other is a colloquialism misused. This is exactly the same as the saiyan/seyun debate: one is correct, the other is obviously and clearly incorrect but used frequently. Popularity doesn't equal correctness.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:55 am

desirecampbell wrote: No. One is a colloquialism, the other is a colloquialism misused.
Aren't most colloquialisms misuses or uses that have arisen from misuses? In any case, this is just semantics.

desirecampbell wrote: This is exactly the same as the saiyan/seyun debate:
Hardly. "Saiyan" is not a colloquialism; it's a proper noun. And with "could/couldn't care less", the original is still used more often than the mutation, and this is not likely to change.
desirecampbell wrote: Popularity doesn't equal correctness.
At this point, I don't know what to say to that.


I really don't feel like repeating myself, so go back and look at my previous posts. If you don't want to consider ideas like consensus and the evolution of language and just sit at home in front of your computer saying to yourself, "It's wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong.", I have no problem with that because I've said all I need to on the subject. My thoughts are out there, and you can take them or leave them.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Fox666 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:01 am

I don't think there is any "consensus" about this. Even official products in US are far from respecting the (mis)pronunciation of words you are proposing, and from time to time they go back to the japanese version.

And if you want to take language in account, don't forget this days there is something called Internet. No matter how many US fans pronounce something, there is an equal number of non-native English speaker who doesn't care about what happens in US at all. This forum is quite a good example, and it would never happen for this place to go for the US dubs.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by desirecampbell » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:36 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:
desirecampbell wrote: No. One is a colloquialism, the other is a colloquialism misused.
Aren't most colloquialisms misuses or uses that have arisen from misuses? In any case, this is just semantics.
No. Colloquialisms aren't "phrases that don't make sense", they're just phrases that are used frequently enough that the phrase itself is recognized more than the actual words. If a person says "I could care less" to convey that they don't care, they haven't invented a new colloquialism; they've failed at language.
Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:
desirecampbell wrote: This is exactly the same as the saiyan/seyun debate:
Hardly. "Saiyan" is not a colloquialism; it's a proper noun. And with "could/couldn't care less", the original is still used more often than the mutation, and this is not likely to change.
Not that saiyan is a colloquialism, that it's mispronounced frequently, and people defend the mispronunciation as legitimate. Your defence of "could care less" is analogous to defending "seyun".
Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:
desirecampbell wrote: Popularity doesn't equal correctness.
At this point, I don't know what to say to that. I really don't feel like repeating myself, so go back and look at my previous posts.
You've floated the idea that "saiyan" is a loan-word, and can now be considered an "English word" for purposes of spelling and pronunciation. I disagree.

That is the extent of your, and anyone else's argument that "seyun" may be correct. The counter argument is "no, it's not nearly popular, common, or old enough to be considered a loan-word". It's been in use only since the mid '90s, and not consistently, and not by the majority of the English speakers.

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Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by LiamKav » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:55 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. He doesn't get a free pass. At least not from me. I've rejected his spelling of "Bulma" in favor of "Blooma" because I don't think Toriyama necessarily knows what he's doing when translating his characters' names to a foreign language. He's been said to have forgotten who Tao Pai Pai is. If, in an interview, he were to be asked about the guy who rode a pillar, and he said, "That was General Blue, right?" that wouldn't mean people should fall down and go, "Oh, my gosh! A new revelation from Toriyama-sensei! It wasn't Tao Pai Pai who rode a pillar! It was Blue!" The fact is, a lot of the times, creators don't know what the hell they're talking about, even in regards to their own work. So I honestly feel I could reverse the question on you and ask, "Why do people accept Toriyama can make mistakes, but every random thing that Lucas spits out is considered gospel?"
I'm not getting at all how those two are the same thing. One is Toriyama not being able to remember a character he hadn't written about or drawn for at least ten years. The other is your perceived idea that he didn't do a good job romanising a character's name which he wrote on her clothes pretty much constantly for the entire time he was working on the manga.

Like, the response to the Tao Pai Pai thing is to say "Toriyama is silly and forgot". The Bulma/Blooma thing is personal opinion as to what he meant, and considering that sometimes his puns were just literally the English word (eg, "Trunks") and other times they were variations on an English word (eg, "Vegeta"), you can argue either way. (You could argue that Bulma's family names tend to be direct words so you should follow that path, but in that case you'd surely have to call her "Bloomers"? In any event, it's an opinion, and very different to the Tao Pai Pai thing.)
Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:I've not heard anyone use "for all intensive purposes" except rarely where folks cite it as a common error. Its incidence might increase in a few years, but usually people just say "virtually" or "effectively". "Couldn't care less" and "could care less" are both colloquial phrases (you won't see either in serious writing), so I don't see too big a problem there.
I'm curious as to what you mean by "serious writing". Are you saying that because no-one would use "could care less" in a research paper, then it doesn't matter that the phrase is wrong? Or do you not consider quotes in newspaper articles, or novels, or articles on magazines "serious writing"? Casual doesn't necessarily mean not serious.

And in this case, it may be a colloquialism, but "couldn't care less" has an actual, definable meaning which you can understand just by looking at the words. It's not like someone saying "too many cooks" and trailing off when talking to someone who only knows English as a second language, and then having to explain the rest of the saying. If you say that you are incapable of caring less about a subject under discussion, it is obvious what you mean. Saying that you could care less about it, when you mean the exact opposite... THAT then stops it being a turn of phrase and turns it into something else.

On the actual argument, can I bring in the capital of China? For decades we translated it as "Peking". And then one day we (the Western World) decided that wasn't a very good translation and so switched to "Bejing". Are the people arguing for "Seyun" saying that we should have stuck with Peking? And for the people who think we were correct to change the name, what do you think when you still see "Peking Duck" on a menu? Why have we only re-translated the word in some circumstances?

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