How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Kurillin-Sama
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Kurillin-Sama » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:49 pm

Tanooki Kuribo wrote:I think if if that's how you're used to saying it, that's fine as long as you know it's wrong.
lol, I can't help but laugh at people trying to make objective right/wrong statements about how to pronounce things.

Words get their pronunciation changed all the time about a million times as they go from language to language. The word 'Zen' is a butchering of the Chinese word, 'Chan' which is in turn a butchering of the Sanskrit word 'Dhyana.' Do you go up and tell a Zen Buddhist that he's pronouncing his religion wrong or do you accept that the word is said differently in Japan (and America)?

Have you heard them say the words 'dragonball' in the original Japanese? They 'mispronounce' it to the same degree that we 'mispronounce' Saiyan.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16593
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:53 pm

Is there any particular reason you're beginning to act antagonistic about this?

The Japanese phonetic system doesn't have the capacity to accurately reproduce the words "dragon" and "ball" without adapting them a bit to fit their language.

We can say "sigh" in "English" perfectly fine.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

Kurillin-Sama
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Kurillin-Sama » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:57 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Is there any particular reason you're beginning to act antagonistic about this?
I think you are reading antagonism where there is none. Disagreeing and arguing my point of view is not antagonistic.
The Japanese phonetic system doesn't have the capacity to accurately reproduce the words "dragon" and "ball" without adapting them a bit to fit their language.
Would you say that the Japanese pronunciation of 'dragonball' is incorrect then?

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5907
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:11 pm

Kurillin-Sama wrote:lol, I can't help but laugh at people trying to make objective right/wrong statements about how to pronounce things.
But there are objective right/wrong answers in this case. Yes, words in real life do change, but this isn't real life. It's a mostly static work of fiction. Also, my name is Lance. It is pronounced, well, pretty much how you would assume it is, just like the object. But let's say you look at it and somehow decide it's pronounce "Lahnkee" because you assume it's a hard "c" and a non-silent "e". Well, I'm sorry, but you would be objectively wrong. Maybe someone else you know has the name "Lance," and he pronounces it that way, but if you're talking about my name, then that's not the correct way to say it. And if you referred to this hypothetical friend of yours by pronouncing his name "Lanss," then you'd also be objectively wrong because that's not his name. And the same goes for "Saiyan."
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 7/6/20!)
Current Episode: Overloading on Gods - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 6!

Kurillin-Sama
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Kurillin-Sama » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:19 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Kurillin-Sama wrote:lol, I can't help but laugh at people trying to make objective right/wrong statements about how to pronounce things.
But there are objective right/wrong answers in this case.
I think the objectivity in this instance would be to say, 'Saiyan is pronounced THIS way in Japanese, objectively.' But you can't say 'Saiyan' is pronounced THIS way objectively period, if you understand what I'm saying.

Just like Aluminum is said one way in America and another way in England (there are a lot of examples of this), there is no one
'correct' way to say it, unless you wanted to say, 'This is the correct way to say it IN AMERICA' for example.

I do see where you are coming from, I just disagree.

User avatar
Rukura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:29 pm
Location: Space Lisbon, Space Portugal

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Rukura » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:20 pm

Kurillin-Sama wrote:Would you say that the Japanese pronunciation of 'dragonball' is incorrect then?
No, because they come from english words. Saiyan, however, does not come from an english word. It comes from a Japanese word, yasai. Do you wanna go up to a japanese person and tell them that they're pronouncing their own word wrong?

Hell, we have Horikawa singing the words "Saiyan Blood" in english.
Full checklist of all Xenoverse clothing pieces, accessories and Z-Souls (Many thanks to jrdemr for the Z-Souls sheet): https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8vxc8m0fehev ... .xlsx?dl=0

Kurillin-Sama
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Kurillin-Sama » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:27 pm

Rukura wrote:
Kurillin-Sama wrote:Would you say that the Japanese pronunciation of 'dragonball' is incorrect then?
No, because they come from english words.
I think I agree with you. Just like you wouldn't say a Japanese person is 'incorrect' the way they pronounce the word dragonball, you wouldn't say an English-speaking person is 'incorrect' the way they pronounce SAY-un.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5907
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:32 pm

Kurillin-Sama wrote:Just like Aluminum is said one way in America and another way in England (there are a lot of examples of this), there is no one
'correct' way to say it, unless you wanted to say, 'This is the correct way to say it IN AMERICA' for example.

I do see where you are coming from, I just disagree.
And I do see where you're coming from, but, like I just said, a fiction does not work the same as real-world language, like in your aluminum example. There is no evolution, no accounting for regional variances or the passage of time. Hell, real world language evolution has multiple pronunciations BECAUSE it's possible to be so subjective. Spelling, grammar, pronunciation... that's all open to whim. The rules are all subjective, able to be changed, made up by people. But, again, this is fiction, created by a single person. And Japanese is a phonetic language, so it's pretty easy to figure out what's right and wrong. To say, "This is the correct way to say it IN AMERICA..." hell, you could use that to justify any choice you make. You could say, "The correct way to pronounce Saiya-jin is Steve IN AMERICA!" Or, "The correct way to pronounce Tenshinhan is Timmy IN AMERICA!" At what point does it go from "correct" pronunciation to "just making shit up"?
Last edited by Gaffer Tape on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 7/6/20!)
Current Episode: Overloading on Gods - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 6!

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16593
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:33 pm

But not all English people pronounce it "Sayun". That precedent was set by a dude in Texas in 1996 and carries forward in one production of the show.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm certainly not saying that us correctly-pronouncing-"Saiyan" group are any majority. I think it's important to look at non-fans, though, or at least those with no real exposure to FUNimation's English dub and yet still speak "English". See: recent Kinect game trailer, GameTrailers' video reviews. They have a "correct" pronunciation, because without FUNimation baggage, that's a pretty obvious go-to first pronunciation.

I'd like to hear more about examples like aluminum though. What are the language roots of those words? How pervasive are alternate pronunciations? When did they start? Who started them?
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

Kurillin-Sama
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Kurillin-Sama » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:39 pm

VegettoEX wrote:because without FUNimation baggage, that's a pretty obvious go-to first pronunciation.
Is it? The 'AI' in America isn't automatically associated with a long I sound as far as I am aware. I don't see the word 'main' and think 'mine.'
I'm certainly not saying that us correctly-pronouncing-"Saiyan" group are any majority.
Do you mean pronouncing it the Japanese way? I'm not sure I know what this 'correctly-pronouncing' business is all about.
I'd like to hear more about examples like aluminum though. What are the language roots of those words? How pervasive are alternate pronunciations? When did they start? Who started them?
Are you serious or are you being facetious?

User avatar
penguintruth
Banned
Posts: 4861
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:49 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by penguintruth » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:45 pm

Kurillin-Sama wrote:It's an opinion? Not sure why I need to qualify it.
A lot of this going around on this forum.

An opinion does need to be qualified. Otherwise it's not an opinion. It's a reaction.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


Dragon Ball (Z) Kai Reviews!

Can I get a Schemen?

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:49 pm

Kurillin-Sama wrote: Would you say that the Japanese pronunciation of 'dragonball' is incorrect then?
The Japanese pronunciation of "Dragon Ball" is easier for Japanese speakers to say. Likewise, the dub prounciation of "Saiyan" is easier for English speakers to say without foreknowledge of the series (refer to my previous post). Also, bear in mind that FUNimation was marketing towards children in 96(?), not hardcore fans who were aware that "Saiyan" comes from a anagram of the Japanese word for vegetable.


Just to be clear, I'm not defending their choice here -- just saying that, considering the circumstances, it's not as egregious as some fans have said in the past (and not objectively incorrect). It's all well and good to call translations "wrong" or "incorrect", but it's a little cloudier with name adaptions like this one.



P.S. The dub pronunciation of "Kaioken" is stupid (and not quite comparable to what's being discussed now) because the dub, unlike Viz, ended up using some variation on "Kaio" ("King Kai"), and it would have been fairly easy for anyone watching the series then to make the link between his name and one of main techniques.

Kurillin-Sama
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Kurillin-Sama » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:53 pm

penguintruth wrote:
Kurillin-Sama wrote:It's an opinion? Not sure why I need to qualify it.
An opinion does need to be qualified. Otherwise it's not an opinion. It's a reaction.
I think you need to look up the definition of opinion, mate. It's a personal view, I don't need to qualify it anymore than I need to qualify the statement 'I like apples more than oranges.'

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5907
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:54 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:Likewise, the dub prounciation of "Saiyan" is easier for English speakers to say without foreknowledge of the series (refer to my previous post).
Now that really is subjective opinion. For evidence on how English-speakers can easily pronounce such sounds in such a pattern, please refer to my colleague, Dr. Bardock, the Super Saiyantist. :wink:
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 7/6/20!)
Current Episode: Overloading on Gods - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 6!

Kurillin-Sama
Newbie
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Kurillin-Sama » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:56 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:
Kurillin-Sama wrote: Would you say that the Japanese pronunciation of 'dragonball' is incorrect then?
The Japanese pronunciation of "Dragon Ball" is easier for Japanese speakers to say. Likewise, the dub prounciation of "Saiyan" is easier for English speakers to say without foreknowledge of the series
Yep, SAY-un flows off the tongue, SYE-un in English sounds like a redneck trying to pronounce SAY-un.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending their choice here -- just saying that, considering the circumstances, it's not as egregious as some fans have said in the past (and not objectively incorrect).
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Well... we have a guy I agree with anyway.

User avatar
Rukura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:29 pm
Location: Space Lisbon, Space Portugal

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Rukura » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:03 pm

Kurillin-Sama wrote:
Rukura wrote:
Kurillin-Sama wrote:Would you say that the Japanese pronunciation of 'dragonball' is incorrect then?
No, because they come from english words.
I think I agree with you. Just like you wouldn't say a Japanese person is 'incorrect' the way they pronounce the word dragonball, you wouldn't say an English-speaking person is 'incorrect' the way they pronounce SAY-un.
They don't have single consonant sounds to physically say "Dragon Ball". We can say Saiyan just perfectly.

The difference there is that they say our word as close as they can, but you're going out of your way to say their word incorrectly.
Last edited by Rukura on Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Full checklist of all Xenoverse clothing pieces, accessories and Z-Souls (Many thanks to jrdemr for the Z-Souls sheet): https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8vxc8m0fehev ... .xlsx?dl=0

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:07 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:Likewise, the dub prounciation of "Saiyan" is easier for English speakers to say without foreknowledge of the series (refer to my previous post).
Now that really is subjective opinion. For evidence on how English-speakers can easily pronounce such sounds in such a pattern, please refer to my colleague, Dr. Bardock, the Super Saiyantist. :wink:
Good point. English prounciation is a bit strange. But, among the seemingly endless number of exceptions, there are whole heaps of words that follow general rules. I think I said most "ai" words are pronounced "ey" in my last post (if I didn't, I'm saying it now). English speakers naturally do this because very common -- mostly native English -- words in the lexicon behave like his ("brain", "rain" etc.). There are exceptions ("science", "deign" etc.), as you said, but these are not common words that we often don't go whole days without saying. These everyday words are what influence our innate pronunciation of foreign terms on first seeing them.

User avatar
desirecampbell
Moderator
Posts: 4296
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by desirecampbell » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Kurillin-Sama wrote:Do you mean pronouncing it the Japanese way? I'm not sure I know what this 'correctly-pronouncing' business is all about.
I think you do know what it's about, and you're being purposefully obtuse in an attempt to upset people.

Stop doing that.

The pronunciation say-un is incorrect. Period. There's absolutely no way to argue that such a pronunciation is acceptable. Your argument breaks down into "English has pronunciation ambiguity". This argument holds no merit for words that are not English.

The Japanese language does not have the pronunciation ambiguity that English has. The word "saiyan" is derived from the Japanese word saiya (サイヤ). These characters have one, and only one, correct pronunciation: sa i ya.

The same way Gohan isn't "Goo-han", and Shuu isn't "Show", and Piccolo isn't "Piss-olo", and Nail isn't "Neil"; saiyan isn't "say-un".

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:18 pm

Need we say that it's absolutely incorrect? Can't we be satisfied with saying that they changed it and had no right to?

User avatar
jpdbzrulz4sure
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 967
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:13 am
Location: Lynnwood, Washington, USA
Contact:

Re: How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

Post by jpdbzrulz4sure » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:21 pm

desirecampbell wrote:...and Piccolo isn't "Piss-olo"...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P
Last edited by jpdbzrulz4sure on Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-Joey

Post Reply