Did the series need Saiyans?

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Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Gonstead » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:12 am

Re-watching the first two movies as of late along with some of the fight with Raditz, I've been finding that I really enjoy the more martial arts aspect that's present in those films and fight than all of the other fighting present in Dragon Ball Z.

And then there's my problem with Saiyans themselves. To me they really take away from that specialty that is presented with Goku and to a lesser extent Gohan.

Born with a tail? Saiyan.

Turn into a great monster at the glance of a full moon? Saiyan.

Exceptionally powerful and gifted in fighting and martial arts? Saiyan.

Son has potential to be a great fighter? Human-Saiyan hybrid power.

A big diet? Saiyan.

Ever since Goku's fight with Vegeta, he's just never really been the same to me. Beforehand, he was perfectly happy with his life and did maybe the occasional workout here and there to stay in shape but then comes the revelation of his origins and the fight with Vegeta, he seems to just become obsessed with getting stronger. To me that's when he loses the charm that he had.

This probably just sounds like a bunch of jibberish to any more knowledgeable fans but I at least hope you guys are getting what I'm trying to say in this initial post.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Fizzer » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:24 am

But Goku always wanted to become stronger than everyone else, his dream throughout Dragon Ball was to become Tenkaichi. I understand your point about how his personality and everything special or unusual about him changed to just "he's a Saiyan", but I think his ambitions were always the same. Personally, I think it's quite cool that after such a long time, rather than at the beginning of the series, it's revealed that his power is due to being an alien, the great ape and stuff start to make sense, and he's left fighting other members of his species who have actually battled in space and know their powers much better than he does. Would the series have worked if it would have carried on being like Dragon Ball, rather than suddenly going all sci-fi? Absolutely, Dragon Ball is amazing.

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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Gonstead » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:26 am

The first two movies seem like they might have worked greatly as sagas in DBZ, especially Movie 1.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:27 am

I think the Saiyans really improved this series, because beforehand Goku was practically the only one who could get things done. At least with the introduction of the Saiyans we had other characters who could pull their own weight.

And Goku always trained to become the strongest he could be, that never changed.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Michsi » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:28 am

I understand what you mean to say, though I'm not sure that the shift you are talking about is solely caused by having introduced the notion of saiyans. DB's greatest turning point was when the author decided to add sci-fi elements to the plot. Goku wasn't just a strange human, he was an alien. Piccolo was no longer a mystical, magical demon, he was also an alien. But yeah, I disliked how the saiyans took over the story later.

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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Fizzer » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:29 am

Oh, though without Saiyans, there would be no Super Saiyan, and I would lost the single most memorable moment of my childhood.

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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:32 am

Michsi wrote:I understand what you mean to say, though I'm not sure that the shift you are talking about is solely caused by having introduced the notion of saiyans. DB's greatest turning point was when the author decided to add sci-fi elements to the plot. Goku wasn't just a strange human, he was an alien. Piccolo was no longer a mystical, magical demon, he was also an alien. But yeah, I disliked how the saiyans took over the story later.
Hey, Piccolo is still a mystical, magical demon. He's just been upgraded to mystical, magical, alien demon. :P But your point is not lost on me.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Gonstead » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:34 am

Fizzer wrote:Oh, though without Saiyans, there would be no Super Saiyan, and I would lost the single most memorable moment of my childhood.
Well, there can still be Super Saiyan. Just... refer to it as something not to do with Saiyans.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Fizzer » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:57 am

Gonstead wrote:
Fizzer wrote:Oh, though without Saiyans, there would be no Super Saiyan, and I would lost the single most memorable moment of my childhood.
Well, there can still be Super Saiyan. Just... refer to it as something not to do with Saiyans.
We've all seen the video of the guy who thinks he's a Super Saiyan... Imagine the damage it would do if it was called a Super Human! :P

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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:44 am

Well, seeing as Super Saiyan is such an integral part of the series, a big part of the reason why it's so popular (especially in North America) and how many of us are still fans today...

Yes. Yes, it did. I don't know why people continuously moan about the series shifting to a more sci-fi-oriented theme. It worked. It was still rough around the edges and sacrificed some of the martial arts elements that made DB so great before, but Toriyama pulled it off. It just needed a bit more balance, especially in terms of how Toriyama handled the non-Saiyan characters (mainly the Earthlings; Piccolo kept up well for a while) and how they ranked up against Gokuu and co. It's almost funny to look back at when Muten Roushi said Gokuu, Piccolo, Tenshinhan and God were probably the four strongest warriors in the world.

And by the Freeza and Cell arcs, Piccolo and Tenshinhan weren't even Gokuu's rivals anymore and had since been eclipsed by him and Vegeta, his new rival...and God had been left behind and had fuck all to contribute to the plot, apart from merging with Piccolo.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:46 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote:It's almost funny to look back at when Muten Roushi said Gokuu, Piccolo, Tenshinhan and God were probably the four strongest warriors in the world.

And by the Freeza and Cell arcs, Piccolo and Tenshinhan weren't even Gokuu's rivals anymore and had since been eclipsed by him and Vegeta, his new rival...and God had been left behind and had fuck all to contribute to the plot, apart from merging with Piccolo.
Eh, I don't even think that's as big a deal as everybody makes it out to be. They all had their moments in the spot light.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Avenged » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:54 pm

Gonstead wrote: Ever since Goku's fight with Vegeta, he's just never really been the same to me. Beforehand, he was perfectly happy with his life and did maybe the occasional workout here and there to stay in shape but then comes the revelation of his origins and the fight with Vegeta, he seems to just become obsessed with getting stronger. To me that's when he loses the charm that he had.

This probably just sounds like a bunch of jibberish to any more knowledgeable fans but I at least hope you guys are getting what I'm trying to say in this initial post.

Have you seen DragonBall at all? Goku was always looking for the next way to become stronger and even ditched his friends for years after defeating King Piccolo to train. It wasn't until he settled down with Chi Chi that he became comfortable with the times of peace. And even when he was killed during the fight with Raditz, he decided to train that whole year before the other Saiyans arrived instead of spending it with his loved ones.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:06 pm

Saiga wrote:I think the Saiyans really improved this series, because beforehand Goku was practically the only one who could get things done. At least with the introduction of the Saiyans we had other characters who could pull their own weight.
Not sure I agree with this. Really the only difference was that the story constantly removed Goku so that we could spend a long time watching everyone else fail miserably at nearly every conceivable goal, or at best manage to just barely hold things together, until Goku arrived to set everything right. Except for that one time it was Gohan.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Kendamu » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:16 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Saiga wrote:I think the Saiyans really improved this series, because beforehand Goku was practically the only one who could get things done. At least with the introduction of the Saiyans we had other characters who could pull their own weight.
Not sure I agree with this. Really the only difference was that the story constantly removed Goku so that we could spend a long time watching everyone else fail miserably at nearly every conceivable goal, or at best manage to just barely hold things together, until Goku arrived to set everything right. Except for that one time it was Gohan.
That seems to be pretty par for the course with Shonen, though. "Oh, it's the title/main character? Let's not have him do anything important for like... one year."

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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by penguintruth » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:20 pm

The series went from comedy wuxia to wuxia to sci-fi wuxia.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by dbboxkaifan » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:26 pm

Cyans were cool in the begging, got even cooler with the Super Cyans transformation and then by Majin Boo's arc the kids could go Super Cyans without any training whatsoever.

"Need" is subjective, "want" yeah.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:27 pm

Kendamu wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Saiga wrote:I think the Saiyans really improved this series, because beforehand Goku was practically the only one who could get things done. At least with the introduction of the Saiyans we had other characters who could pull their own weight.
Not sure I agree with this. Really the only difference was that the story constantly removed Goku so that we could spend a long time watching everyone else fail miserably at nearly every conceivable goal, or at best manage to just barely hold things together, until Goku arrived to set everything right. Except for that one time it was Gohan.
That seems to be pretty par for the course with Shonen, though. "Oh, it's the title/main character? Let's not have him do anything important for like... one year."
That wasn't necessarily a judgment on the story. I'm just saying I disagree that the other characters began to be able to pull their own weight more than earlier in the story. They were just given more visible opportunities to fail.
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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by OutlawTorn » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:58 pm

Avenged wrote:And even when he was killed during the fight with Raditz, he decided to train that whole year before the other Saiyans arrived instead of spending it with his loved ones.
I don't really understand this, he had to sacrifice himself in order to defeat Raditz so he clearly wasn't strong enough to be a match for two even more powerful Saiyans who were on their way. Then he's dead with a deadline (pun not intended) of one year ti train with King Kai before the threat arrives. Piccolo has Gohan in training during that year so he can fight and despite training with King Kai, Goku is... well... dead and can't exactly spend that year with his loved ones.

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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Cipher » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:28 pm

There's no real way to answer this. The addition of Saiyans is such an integral part of the second half of the series, it's hard to imagine the story being even remotely similar without them.

Saiyans certainly did provide something for the general public to latch onto (the image of a Super Saiyan, and even just the word "Saiyan," is its own pop-culture phenomenon by this point), but it's hard to say whether some other aspect of the series could have taken their place or not.

All we know is it became a wild success, and it had Saiyans. That doesn't say anything about what it might have been otherwise; we'll never know.

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Re: Did the series need Saiyans?

Post by Avenged » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:58 pm

OutlawTorn wrote:
Avenged wrote:And even when he was killed during the fight with Raditz, he decided to train that whole year before the other Saiyans arrived instead of spending it with his loved ones.
I don't really understand this, he had to sacrifice himself in order to defeat Raditz so he clearly wasn't strong enough to be a match for two even more powerful Saiyans who were on their way. Then he's dead with a deadline (pun not intended) of one year ti train with King Kai before the threat arrives. Piccolo has Gohan in training during that year so he can fight and despite training with King Kai, Goku is... well... dead and can't exactly spend that year with his loved ones.
They could have wished Goku back as soon as he died, it's not like they made a wish and HAD to wait a year before using the Dragonballs again. He could have trained on Earth but instead decided to train with King Kai, therefore had his friends and family wait a year before he was brought back to life. Goku was always one step ahead of everyone else in terms of training, he underwent the training on Korin Tower and Kami's Lookout before the rest of the Z senshi did. Sure he only trained in other world to fight the Saiyans, but it had a lot to do with him wanting to push himself even further regardless of who his opponent was.
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