Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods"

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by GoldLiger » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:11 pm

Freeza Soldier #156 wrote:
GoldLiger wrote: Unless you know Mr. Toriyama himself and explained the reason WHY he hasn't yet reveal his reasons for this fact then it will be AU to any TRUE DB fan who closely follows the continuity of the original work 25 to 30 years ago.
Great. Someone else who thinks they can say whether or not someone is a true fan. We're all here because we are true fans of DB. I'm a true fan of DB; have been for over a decade and I consider BOG and FnF part of the manga storyline. Why? Because Toriyama wrote them and said that they were part of the manga storyline, that's why.
That mentality is wrong and you know it. Because Road to Ninja's storyline was created by Kishimoto-sensei himself along with him drawing the Prologue chapter to it as well. But the events are a AU/Parallel Timeline. It sold well despite that is was an AU/PT. The fact that Toriyama-sensei made a rookie mistake in not reviewing the source material(Buu saga in the manga) he made a mistake with the key element to the continuity.
rereboy wrote:In the manga, Zarbon never tells Vegeta that Freeza had transformations, even though Vegeta later says so. Also, Trunks warns Goku about androids #19 and #20 but later Trunks only knows androids #17 and #18. Did Toriyama lie then too?
Are you sure the manga said 17 and 18 or just two androids?
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:13 pm

GoldLiger wrote:
Freeza Soldier #156 wrote:
GoldLiger wrote: Unless you know Mr. Toriyama himself and explained the reason WHY he hasn't yet reveal his reasons for this fact then it will be AU to any TRUE DB fan who closely follows the continuity of the original work 25 to 30 years ago.
Great. Someone else who thinks they can say whether or not someone is a true fan. We're all here because we are true fans of DB. I'm a true fan of DB; have been for over a decade and I consider BOG and FnF part of the manga storyline. Why? Because Toriyama wrote them and said that they were part of the manga storyline, that's why.
That mentality is wrong and you know it. Because Road to Ninja's storyline was created by Kishimoto-sensei himself along with him drawing the Prologue chapter to it as well. But the events are a AU/Parallel Timeline. It sold well despite that is was an AU/PT. The fact that Toriyama-sensei made a rookie mistake in not reviewing the source material(Buu saga in the manga) he made a mistake with the key element to the continuity.
THE key element? The number of wishes that Shenron can grant is now THE KEY ELEMENT to the continuity?
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:16 pm

And again, these same kinds of mistakes were made time and time again during the original manga serialization. You have a case where a wish is made in less than a year. The androids are given two different sets of numbers. Gohan's age is changed. Hell, Kikoho is written with two different sets of kanji.

I'm not for either side of any theoretical argument when it comes to categorizing these movies as canonical or not, but please be aware (and then let's not forget, once you are aware) that all these same kinds of things happened in the original manga. Logically, extending your argument out, the manga can't be within its own continuity at that point.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Freeza Soldier #156 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:17 pm

GoldLiger wrote: That mentality is wrong and you know it. Because Road to Ninja's storyline was created by Kishimoto-sensei himself along with him drawing the Prologue chapter to it as well. But the events are a AU/Parallel Timeline. It sold well despite that is was an AU/PT.
This point really has nothing to do with what I said. It was explicitly stated that Road to Ninja was an alternate reality story. Nowhere did I say that just because Toriyama wrote it, it doesn't meant it can't be an AR, if he said it was AR then it would be AR. However, he said that he wrote the story "as if it were a continuation of the manga while it was still in serialization", so basically, this is part of the manga storyline.

No one is saying you have to accept any of this, just that you don't have any right to throw the "you're not a true fan" card because someone does.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by rereboy » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:18 pm

GoldLiger wrote:
rereboy wrote:In the manga, Zarbon never tells Vegeta that Freeza had transformations, even though Vegeta later says so. Also, Trunks warns Goku about androids #19 and #20 but later Trunks only knows androids #17 and #18. Did Toriyama lie then too?
Are you sure the manga said 17 and 18 or just two androids?
Yes. Trunks warned Goku specifically about #19 and #20. Its a famous plothole in the manga because Toriyama originally planned for them to be the villains, but he then introduced the other androids and made Trunks refer to #17 and #18 as the androids he had warned them about.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by GoldLiger » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:22 pm

GoldLiger wrote:
rereboy wrote:In the manga, Zarbon never tells Vegeta that Freeza had transformations, even though Vegeta later says so. Also, Trunks warns Goku about androids #19 and #20 but later Trunks only knows androids #17 and #18. Did Toriyama lie then too?
Are you sure the manga said 17 and 18 or just two androids?
I checked my and indeed it was 19 and 20. But those where tiny mistakes that can be corrected later. The mistakes I meant are those that is the key elements to the story of Dragon Ball in GENERAL. Shenron's abilities have always been explained to the exact details in the manga. BoG forgot this key fact and that is why it is an AU.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:24 pm

See my above example about a wish being made in less than a year (was it Red Ribbon era-ish?). EDIT: Yeah, it's only about 8 months pass between Oolong's wish and start of the Red Ribbon arc.

That's exactly the same category as what you're saying for Battle of Gods (Dragon Balls and wishes, being inherent to the story itself, and therefore a major part...?). And so again, logically, extending your argument out, the manga cannot be canonical to itself or within its own continuity because of this egregious error.

I'm sure you're able to understand how silly that sounds, right?
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:25 pm

GoldLiger wrote:
GoldLiger wrote:
rereboy wrote:In the manga, Zarbon never tells Vegeta that Freeza had transformations, even though Vegeta later says so. Also, Trunks warns Goku about androids #19 and #20 but later Trunks only knows androids #17 and #18. Did Toriyama lie then too?
Are you sure the manga said 17 and 18 or just two androids?
I checked my and indeed it was 19 and 20. But those where tiny mistakes that can be corrected later. The mistakes I meant are those that is the key elements to the story of Dragon Ball in GENERAL. Shenron's abilities have always been explained to the exact details in the manga. BoG forgot this key fact and that is why it is an AU.
Ha! Since when? Toriyama made up the dragon's abilities and limitations as he went, just like everything else in the manga. There was never any one time where all of the rules for the Dragon Balls were just put on display.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by GoldLiger » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:26 pm

Freeza Soldier #156 wrote:
GoldLiger wrote: That mentality is wrong and you know it. Because Road to Ninja's storyline was created by Kishimoto-sensei himself along with him drawing the Prologue chapter to it as well. But the events are a AU/Parallel Timeline. It sold well despite that is was an AU/PT.
This point really has nothing to do with what I said. It was explicitly stated that Road to Ninja was an alternate reality story. Nowhere did I say that just because Toriyama wrote it, it doesn't meant it can't be an AR, if he said it was AR then it would be AR. However, he said that he wrote the story "as if it were a continuation of the manga while it was still in serialization", so basically, this is part of the manga storyline.

No one is saying you have to accept any of this, just that you don't have any right to throw the "you're not a true fan" card because someone does.
Yes but unlike Kishimoto-sensei, Toriyama-sensei lied about it being a part of the timeline of the manga. His actions speak differently to his words. Look at Kishimoto-sensei for an example. Boruto(Bolt)'s name was originally stated to be called the other word for Menma(forgot it but there is an interview about it). Just because an author says one thing now doesn't make it true UNTIL it is done through action.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Freeza Soldier #156 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:29 pm

GoldLiger wrote: Yes but unlike Kishimoto-sensei, Toriyama-sensei lied about it being a part of the timeline of the manga.
Yes, because that was his diabolical plan all along. It's not like he just has a poor memory, as has been the case...forever. :roll: I love how you conveniently seem to keep skipping over Mike's valid point. Anyway, this argument is kind of ridiculous. It's all opinion. If you want stuff to be AU, it's AU. I want it to be part of the manga, it's part of the manga. It's all good.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by GoldLiger » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:30 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Ha! Since when? Toriyama made up the dragon's abilities and limitations as he went, just like everything else in the manga. There was never any one time where all of the rules for the Dragon Balls were just put on display.
Yes but you have to remember that this manga ended 20 years ago plus these facts are within the official databooks signed by Toriyama-sensei himself. Meaning that those abilities that Shenron has from the manga can not be change without prior notice. Heck they had time to do this in the Return of Goku and Friends special plus the few minutes of the movie prior to Emperor Pilaf's appearance.
Freeza Soldier #156 wrote:
GoldLiger wrote: Yes but unlike Kishimoto-sensei, Toriyama-sensei lied about it being a part of the timeline of the manga.
Yes, because that was his diabolical plan all along. It's not like he just has a poor memory, as has been the case...forever. :roll: I love how you conveniently seem to keep skipping over Mike's valid point. Anyway, this argument is kind of ridiculous. It's all opinion. If you want stuff to be AU, it's AU. I want it to be part of the manga, it's part of the manga. It's all good.
Memory problems is not an excuse when you have both an editor and the original source of information(the original manga itself). Did you forget that he stated that BoG followed the exact continuity of the ORIGINAL MANGA? If he was writing an new manga from scratch then okay that excuse is valid.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:35 pm

GoldLiger wrote: Yes but you have to remember that this manga ended 20 years ago plus these facts are within the official databooks signed by Toriyama-sensei himself. Meaning that those abilities that Shenron has from the manga can not be change without prior notice. Heck they had time to do this in the Return of Goku and Friends special plus the few minutes of the movie prior to Emperor Pilaf's appearance.
Sure they can. Anything that the author decides to do trumps any kind of supplementary material. Why would stuff that's "signed by Toriyama" have more bearing than stuff that he made himself?

And I like how you continue to ignore everything Mike has brought up.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by GoldLiger » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:43 pm

VegettoEX wrote:See my above example about a wish being made in less than a year (was it Red Ribbon era-ish?). EDIT: Yeah, it's only about 8 months pass between Oolong's wish and start of the Red Ribbon arc.

That's exactly the same category as what you're saying for Battle of Gods (Dragon Balls and wishes, being inherent to the story itself, and therefore a major part...?). And so again, logically, extending your argument out, the manga cannot be canonical to itself or within its own continuity because of this egregious error.

I'm sure you're able to understand how silly that sounds, right?
Except they did not wish to be babies they wish for youth. Plus Pilaf said he couldn't get a job like this(as kids). Meaning the wish happened recently(like a year or so back). Plus they have a Dragon Radar to find said Dragon Balls. Whether or not you bring up counters it doesn't change the fact that Pilaf's first wish happened AFTER Dende upgraded Shenron.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:47 pm

Your response makes no sense.

You've presented us with a legitimate concern that the number of wishes in Battle of Gods do not seem to line up with what's presented in the manga. Therefore, this disrepency (according to you) must infer some type of continuity problem.

I've presented you with an equally-substantial error from the original manga itself, also regarding the same set of Dragon Balls, where two wishes are made in less than a year's time at a point where Shenlong only grants one wish and only grants another wish after a year has passed.

You have not responded at all to how this presents a continuity error with the original manga itself (as penned by Akira Toriyama himself, and quite nearly right at the beginning of the series itself), and how this therefore makes the manga not within its own continuity.

Again, you must understand how silly this sounds.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by GoldLiger » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:48 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
GoldLiger wrote: Yes but you have to remember that this manga ended 20 years ago plus these facts are within the official databooks signed by Toriyama-sensei himself. Meaning that those abilities that Shenron has from the manga can not be change without prior notice. Heck they had time to do this in the Return of Goku and Friends special plus the few minutes of the movie prior to Emperor Pilaf's appearance.
Sure they can. Anything that the author decides to do trumps any kind of supplementary material. Why would stuff that's "signed by Toriyama" have more bearing than stuff that he made himself?

And I like how you continue to ignore everything Mike has brought up.
Because we are going "stuff he made 25+ years ago" against "stuff he made now". He stated in the interview that BoG followed the continuity of the ORIGINAL MANGA. Had he stated that this was a new story that was based 5 years after the events of the Kid Buu destruction then we would have known that is was an AU/PT story. But he said that it was a semi-sequel to the original work. No matter how much you want to defend his actions, Toriyama-sensei was supposed to follow the facts of his original work to the letter.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:54 pm

GoldLiger wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
GoldLiger wrote: Yes but you have to remember that this manga ended 20 years ago plus these facts are within the official databooks signed by Toriyama-sensei himself. Meaning that those abilities that Shenron has from the manga can not be change without prior notice. Heck they had time to do this in the Return of Goku and Friends special plus the few minutes of the movie prior to Emperor Pilaf's appearance.
Sure they can. Anything that the author decides to do trumps any kind of supplementary material. Why would stuff that's "signed by Toriyama" have more bearing than stuff that he made himself?

And I like how you continue to ignore everything Mike has brought up.
Because we are going "stuff he made 25+ years ago" against "stuff he made now". He stated in the interview that BoG followed the continuity of the ORIGINAL MANGA. Had he stated that this was a new story that was based 5 years after the events of the Kid Buu destruction then we would have known that is was an AU/PT story. But he said that it was a semi-sequel to the original work. No matter how much you want to defend his actions, Toriyama-sensei was supposed to follow the facts of his original work to the letter.
The original manga didn't follow the facts of his original work to the letter. I don't see how you fail to realize that.

And who are you to decide what Toriyama was "supposed" to do? It's his work. He can do what he wants.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Freeza Soldier #156 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:57 pm

GoldLiger wrote: Because we are going "stuff he made 25+ years ago" against "stuff he made now". He stated in the interview that BoG followed the continuity of the ORIGINAL MANGA. Had he stated that this was a new story that was based 5 years after the events of the Kid Buu destruction then we would have known that is was an AU/PT story. But he said that it was a semi-sequel to the original work. No matter how much you want to defend his actions, Toriyama-sensei was supposed to follow the facts of his original work to the letter.
You are basically just reposting the same nonsense over and over again. As has been stated to you several times (which you've chosen to conveniently gloss over), there have been inconsistencies in DB's "key elements", as you call them, since the original serialization of the manga. It's an unfortunate side effect of Toriyama not planning ahead and making the story up as he went along.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by GoldLiger » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:01 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Your response makes no sense.

You've presented us with a legitimate concern that the number of wishes in Battle of Gods do not seem to line up with what's presented in the manga. Therefore, this disrepency (according to you) must infer some type of continuity problem.

I've presented you with an equally-substantial error from the original manga itself, also regarding the same set of Dragon Balls, where two wishes are made in less than a year's time at a point where Shenlong only grants one wish and only grants another wish after a year has passed.

You have not responded at all to how this presents a continuity error with the original manga itself (as penned by Akira Toriyama himself, and quite nearly right at the beginning of the series itself), and how this therefore makes the manga not within its own continuity.

Again, you must understand how silly this sounds.
Are you talking about the events of the Buu saga in which 2 wishes were used at the exact same time to revive those who died against Vegeta at the WMAT when he became Majin Vegeta? The third wish happened in which they wished for the memory of Majin Buu be erased from the memories of the people.... wait a minute... After verified the sources. I can now say that BoG is indeed in a parallel world to the manga.
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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by Freeza Soldier #156 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:05 pm

He was talking about this:
VegettoEX wrote:See my above example about a wish being made in less than a year (was it Red Ribbon era-ish?). EDIT: Yeah, it's only about 8 months pass between Oolong's wish and start of the Red Ribbon arc.

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Re: Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:07 pm

No. I don't know what you keep bringing up entirely separate things for. They have nothing to do with anything, and it only leads me to believe you don't actually understand the conversation that is taking place.

At the beginning of the series, Shenlong can only grant one wish, and can only do so after a year has passed since the last wish. Oolong wishes for panties during the Pilaf arc. Only eight months later, the wish to restore Bora to life is made during the Red Ribbon Army arc.

This is a plothole with the same level of severity as the (possible) error within Battle of Gods (where only one wish is made; possibly two, if you count both Pilaf's wish and then a wish to learn more about Super Saiyan God). This plothole is within the original manga itself.

(Furthermore, taking your own concerns even more seriously, this error was at a point where the rules had only just recently been explained; we're not talking 20+ years later here.)

By your own logic, this means the the manga is not within the same continuity as itself. This is a ridiculous statement, and one you're forced to analyze from an out-of-universe perspective.

There was never anything wrong with your questions about the possible errors within Battle of Gods. My whole point here is that you do not seem to want to address the same types of errors within the manga itself. Any time you respond, it's about something else entirely, if not dismissive.

Do you understand what I am saying?
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