REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by Fulicer » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:21 pm

NessMudkip wrote:The only thing I find the English version has over the Japanese is the audio quality. In that the Japanese is only in mono and the English in stereo. I would love to see the Japanese version in stereo at some point.
Actually the number of channels doesn't make the sound quality worse. The original's master audio track was likely thrown away, except for the movies. Which is why the Japanese releases of the episodes (not movies) sound terrible -- they are from optical track stored with the film. A poorer quality source results in poorer quality sound (especially compared to recordings of the original broadcasts).

So audio quality is a problem with the Japanese version in general.

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by Pafupafu » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:25 pm

Let me just say this upfront. I GREATLY prefer the original japanese version.

Yet there are always reasons to dislike a certain version of any form of entertainment.

- The Music is very repetitive and often makes certain moments of the series feel less than they are because it is a recycled soundtrack. The pro here is that the Music is incredible, just a lot of the same themes repeated often.

- The title cards literally SPOIL the episode that follows.

- Japanese screaming, while very emotional, does not carry the same strength and depth as the deeper vocals of dubs.

- If you aren't fluent in Japanese, it is a completely different experience than watching just the animation as 30% or more of the time of each second, your eyes are READING.

- Certain Japanese "puns" throughout the series can really bring a separation between the viewer and the story as they go over their head.


There's really not much else. The series will always be Japanese first. It was made with the sole-intention to be presented to Japanese audiences. I'm sure there were always thoughts of translations etc. but the final product was a Japanese product. The only "dislike" of this version is defined by how you watch it.

Asking a Japan-native what they dislike about the Japanese Version is essentially asking them what they dislike about Dragon Ball period. It really depends on how you watch it and whether you can bypass a language barrier and set a preference.

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by Son_Gohan » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:48 pm

I'm trying to think of something that hasn't been said.

But to add to what's already been presented, I remember Nozawa's voice work on adult Future Gohan during his brief appearance in the anime being particularly bad. The voice she chose didn't suit Gohan's demeanor at all, and I think resembled Goku's too closely.

Regarding the music, I don't consider it very timeless or riveting. It rarely enhanced the atmosphere of a scene for me, where the only moments that really stick out and added some emotional weight were when Goku defeats Tenshinhan during their match in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, Gohan's first SSJ2 transformation, and during Gohan's climactic Kamehameha battle with Cell. Aside from that it didn't really grab my attention too much.

The opening and ending themes, as well as the eye-catch for the earlier eras in DBZ became really outdated as the story progressed. You could be in the middle of watching a serious scene, and then the happy music where little Gohan runs to his father's arms pops up, or have the same effect at the end of the episode, where the "ZENKAI Powa!" theme completely throws you off from whatever the episode was pertained to.

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by DragonBoxZTheMovies » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:47 am

Because it's different.

If you're first exposure to the series is in the form of Funimation's English dub, then Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat become Goku and Vegeta. To you, they are those characters and to hear anything different come out of those characters' mouths is like hearing Jeff's voice come out of Mike. Jeff has an awesome voice and all, but it just sounds wrong coming from Mike's mouth (who also has an awesome voice, otherwise I wouldn't have spent more than 300 hours listening to him).

That was a bad analogy, but I'm on holiday right now so it's hard to word things the way I want to. :P

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by Tzigi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:36 am

The titles, oh, the titles - in the series you get "A really long and redundantly redundant title spoling the whole story of this episode for you" and for the movies you get "An ever longer title - this time saying absolutely nothing about the content of the movie maybe apart from the fact that Goku will win". That's the only thing I really dislike in the original version. But it isn't anything specific to DB - every anime I can think of now has this (maybe apart from HxH with those 3-word episode titles).

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by coola » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:45 am

I don`t have a problem with Japanese version DBZ, Kai on the other hand, i just can`t handle current Horikawa Vegeta voice, when he is angry, he sounds like old man, trying to be angry, it really pain me to say this, since i loved Horikawa in Z, but, in Kai...
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by dbboxkaifan » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:24 am

I've noticed some users here say that the music is repetitive, well, it might be but not anywhere near as close as it was in Kai.

What if Toei used other Kikuchi music pieces from other series such as Doraemon, Ninja Hattori, Kiteretsu, Sakigake Otokojuku, Dr. Slump & Arale-chan, Kamen Raider and others would it have been better and with more variety for DBZ? I suppose so, but you'd still notice that all tracks were Kikuchi-fied and a very consistent soundtrack (except if they used an unfitting BGM for a scene).

Lastly, people complain that the music sounds old, but the cartoon series were produced in the 80's to the 90's so that's kind of obvious. Pumping it up with Faulconer Productions (US) or Ron Wasserman's (Canada) score weren't the original ideal score, but as replacements.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by Adamant » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:34 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
penguintruth wrote:It's not a difficult skill, reading subtitles.
Not at all.

The problem, however, isn't the difficulty. The problem is--in my opinion and in the opinion of people who use this argument, anyway--enjoyability, not difficulty. It's slightly less enjoyable in that it's one more task to do, rather than just sitting back and experiencing a show. Which is how the Japanese watch anime in Japan, after all...they watch it, they don't read it. The idea behind a dub is to replicate that mode of viewing for non-Japanese speakers.
Subtitles aren't purely related to "anime" and "Japanese", those are just examples. Focusing your argument solely on those just creates strawmen.
Do Japanese people watch Japanese cartoons in Japanese, without subtitles? Of course they do - it's their language, it's how these works were made... why would they do anything else? Why would it make sense for them to watch it in a different way? Why would that mean that "watching and understanding the dialogue without subtitles" is the important part, and that the original dialogue, the original voices and the original acting are just minor details?
People all over the world, Japan included, watch the same English-language TV shows as you do, the same way you do... but with translations of the dialogue on the bottom of the screen to help them understand it. Are they not watching the same thing as you? Would they be getting a similar experience as you if the dialogue was replaced by some cheap local actors talking over the original dialogue instead? Would you be experiencing the show just the same way if you muted it and had a friend read the script to you while you were watching?

A movie or an episode of a television show is the sum of its parts. Of course the intended way to enjoy the work was to just understand the dialogue as it was being spoken, but if you can't do so, surely the second-best thing would be to be presented with an explanation of what's being said, rather than have the dialogue replaced with entirely different dialogue you DO inherently understand.

Subtitles help you understand the original work as it stands, while dubbing over the work just... makes it a different work. One you do understand without help, yes, but still a different work. You're no longer experiencing what you were meant to experience.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:54 pm

Adamant wrote:
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
penguintruth wrote:It's not a difficult skill, reading subtitles.
Not at all.

The problem, however, isn't the difficulty. The problem is--in my opinion and in the opinion of people who use this argument, anyway--enjoyability, not difficulty. It's slightly less enjoyable in that it's one more task to do, rather than just sitting back and experiencing a show. Which is how the Japanese watch anime in Japan, after all...they watch it, they don't read it. The idea behind a dub is to replicate that mode of viewing for non-Japanese speakers.
Subtitles aren't purely related to "anime" and "Japanese", those are just examples. Focusing your argument solely on those just creates strawmen.
Oh certainly, I merely focused on animes since, this being Kanzenshuu, we're talking about animes...and four animes in particular (DB, DBZ, DBGT, and Kai).

As for your other comments...lots 'o great questions there (and since tone is sometimes lost in translation on an internet forum, allow me to clarify that I'm being serious here, not sarcastic...those are great questions). I'll try to answer all of 'em as best I can. My super-short answer to all of those questions is, "it's subjective and varies on a case-by-case basis." For the sake of giving longer answers, though...
Adamant wrote:Do Japanese people watch Japanese cartoons in Japanese, without subtitles? Of course they do - it's their language, it's how these works were made... why would they do anything else? Why would it make sense for them to watch it in a different way? Why would that mean that "watching and understanding the dialogue without subtitles" is the important part, and that the original dialogue, the original voices and the original acting are just minor details?
I never meant to imply that the original dialogue, the original voices, and the original acting are just minor details. I simply meant to imply that if one is not a native speaker, then even with subtitles, one's ability to fully absorb and experience the original dialogue, original voices, and original acting...is impeded. Subtitles bridge a gap, but they don't bring the same identical experience of watching something without the need for subtitles to understand it. If you need subtitles, that's a (perfectly acceptable) admission that you can't absorb everything on your own. It varies on a case-by-case basis how much that bothers people, which is why this issue will always be an issue of preference. For me, not being able to fully absorb the acting is a minor inconvenience that prevents me from truly loving and adoring a subtitled version of anything. Like I said, whenever I listen to something in Japanese, I have no clue how good the acting is. Maybe it's wonderful, maybe it's terrible...I have no idea without being able to speak the language. With dubs at least, whether the acting is bad or good, I can definitively form my own opinion because I do speak English.

For that matter, when it comes to the dubs of the four "Dragon Ball" animes, there are definitely performances that I felt were underwhelming, or that I'm not a huge fan of. I remain silent on which ones in particular because, since I do VO for a living, I feel it would be kinda rude of me to publicly say bad stuff about other voice actors. Especially nowadays when everything we say becomes permanently Google-able. This has the unintended side-effect of perhaps making me appear more pro-dub than I actually am, but suffice to say, there are performances in those dubs and in other dubs that I'm not a huge fan of.
Adamant wrote:People all over the world, Japan included, watch the same English-language TV shows as you do, the same way you do... but with translations of the dialogue on the bottom of the screen to help them understand it. Are they not watching the same thing as you? Would they be getting a similar experience as you if the dialogue was replaced by some cheap local actors talking over the original dialogue instead? Would you be experiencing the show just the same way if you muted it and had a friend read the script to you while you were watching?
Mmmm...they'd be watching the same thing, but they wouldn't be getting the same experience. As for whether or not they'd be getting a similar experience as me if the dialogue was replaced by "some cheap local actors talking over the original dialogue instead"...no, they'd be getting a different experience. I think there's something to be said about "some cheap local actors," as that's generally not the case with dubs any more, and most of them are handled in very professional environments with very skilled actors. Even if something is professionally and effectively dubbed, though, no, they would not be getting the same experience.

Getting the "same experience," though, may not necessarily be the highest item on everyone's priority list. That isn't the case with me, anyway. I want as similar an experience as possible to the original Japanese version whenever I watch a dub, but that's not at the top of my priority list. What's at the top of my priority list is hearing acting that I can feel. I'd rather feel the emotions of a character than just understand it. That's not to say that the issue of an accurate dub is irrelevant to me. It isn't. In the interest of honesty, though, my priority with dubs will always be hearing acting that I understand and feel, rather than just understand. Followed very closely by my personal no. 2 priority of experiencing a dub that's as close to the original Japanese version as possible.
Adamant wrote:A movie or an episode of a television show is the sum of its parts. Of course the intended way to enjoy the work was to just understand the dialogue as it was being spoken, but if you can't do so, surely the second-best thing would be to be presented with an explanation of what's being said, rather than have the dialogue replaced with entirely different dialogue you DO inherently understand.
I disagree. Again, it comes back to the issue of preferences. I'm not interested in hearing dialogue, I'm interested in hearing characters. I want to hear the acting, not the script. Since I'm not a native speaker of Japanese, that disconnect is a tad bothersome for me. I'm sure the acting's (probably) not terrible, as I've watched a lot of the original Japanese version and enjoy it, but I can't tell for sure. Furthermore, the idea of dialogue being "repaced with entirely different dialogue" is an assumption. Again, most dubs are professionally and accurately done nowadays. There are some exceptions, sure, but it's a tad all-encompassing to say that dialogue is "replaced with entirely different dialogue."
Adamant wrote:Subtitles help you understand the original work as it stands, while dubbing over the work just... makes it a different work. One you do understand without help, yes, but still a different work. You're no longer experiencing what you were meant to experience.
This is easily the bit that I'm most interested to discuss further...who's to say what I was "meant to experience"?

That is an actual question, by the way. From what I can tell, what I was "meant to experience" is rather subjective. As is the whole issue of preferring a sub or a dub. After all, it's not at all uncommon that a dubbing company has to get approval from the original company for everything from casting to writing. Granted, it varies on a case-by-case basis how much involvement the original company has with the various international dubs of their properties, but it's rare that a dubbing company is given free reign to dub whatever they want and however they want. Even if the dubbing company is given free reign, they need to be given the right to free reign from the original company. So in many cases, when I watch a dub, I'm watching what the original company gave their approval to produce. So technically, since they OK'd it, isn't that what I was meant to experience?

Or hey, maybe it isn't. I don't know. I don't know that there's a definitive answer to that question. Like I said, it's very subjective. I don't really know who's to say what we were meant to experience. From my point of view, I think we were simply meant to experience things...however it is that we happened to experience them.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:21 pm

Just to throw another interesting look at the subject into the mix: I'm [accidentally] re-watching Lost right now. Sun/Jin and Sayid focused episodes are mostly subtitled in languages I don't have a flying puck of a clue about, Korean and Arabic. Despite this, I'm able to easily follow the story and the physical inflictions of the actors. Lost is also a hugely popular American television, which I think is something to keep in mind regarding subtitles and the average bloke.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by dbboxkaifan » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:27 pm

Adamant @ It could also be for hard-hearing + deaf Japanese watchers so subtitles and close caption is very helpful, even for audible viewers it has its uses, such as if missing a line reading the subs covers those lost moments.

The Japanese DB fans who're deaf or so require subs to understand what's going on the series, so they're out of luck (on DVD, example). How hard can it be to write the same as being said.. Well, the only thing that could be a pain would be timing it correctly.

JacobyYBM @ Wow, I hated Lost's WTF ending. :P
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:29 pm

dbboxkaifan wrote:JacobyYBM @ I hated Lost's WTF ending. :P
At risk of going off topic, it wasn't a 'WTF' ending. It was entirely straightforward and made complete sense.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by dbboxkaifan » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:31 pm

Jacob, there were questions that were never answered and stupid me I thought the last episode was going to reveal the responses. This is why.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by wjbraden » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:25 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Just to throw another interesting look at the subject into the mix: I'm [accidentally] re-watching Lost right now. Sun/Jin and Sayid focused episodes are mostly subtitled in languages I don't have a flying puck of a clue about, Korean and Arabic. Despite this, I'm able to easily follow the story and the physical inflictions of the actors. Lost is also a hugely popular American television, which I think is something to keep in mind regarding subtitles and the average bloke.
Eh, that's kind of comparing apples and oranges here. Cartoons like DBZ can show characters' expressions, but they can't show body language like a live action production can. And for the most part, body language is universal, so just about anybody can pick up on that. Not so much with Cartoons like DBZ. Also, it's not like the whole show "Lost" is in subtitles. I don't think it would have been as popular if it was though.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel I'm losing something by having to read subtitles. I feel I'm concentrating more on the dialogue than the visuals. And while this may work with some animes that feature a lot of dialogue, it doesn't work with DBZ which has a lot to offer visually.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by GizmoKSX » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:18 pm

Adamant wrote: A movie or an episode of a television show is the sum of its parts. Of course the intended way to enjoy the work was to just understand the dialogue as it was being spoken, but if you can't do so, surely the second-best thing would be to be presented with an explanation of what's being said, rather than have the dialogue replaced with entirely different dialogue you DO inherently understand.

Subtitles help you understand the original work as it stands, while dubbing over the work just... makes it a different work. One you do understand without help, yes, but still a different work. You're no longer experiencing what you were meant to experience.
When translating a work across cultures, you can go for a literal translation that preserves and explains the original work, or you can rewrite it to capture the spirit of the work. The problem with the former approach is that it can be less effective on an emotional level. It's like telling a joke that goes over someone's head and having to explain it; they can grasp the concept, but it won't really be funny, because you delivered the setup after the punchline. This is a legitimate issue with works that were tailored for audiences of other places and times. Personally, I'll still take a subtitled presentation because I'd rather hear the original voice performances, but I'm not opposed to dubs with subtle changes meant to elicit the same reactions as the original versions. When Kaiou is delivering puns, is it really necessary to translate the original joke verbatim and include additional subtitles to explain the joke, or does a localized pun get the point across more effectively? It depends on whether you're watching the show for pure entertainment (which is more in line with the original presentation) or appreciating it as a historical work from another culture. Even subtitles play this balancing act, like Steve Simmons giving Goku his "hick" delivery.
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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by Pafupafu » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:07 pm

dbboxkaifan wrote:Jacob, there were questions that were never answered and stupid me I thought the last episode was going to reveal the responses. This is why.

LAPIDUS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrcF7dYADsw




I personally loved the ending. Best Television series ever made. Hands Down. But that video is so amazing.

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by OutlawTorn » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:06 pm

Adamant wrote:People all over the world, Japan included, watch the same English-language TV shows as you do, the same way you do... but with translations of the dialogue on the bottom of the screen to help them understand it. Are they not watching the same thing as you? Would they be getting a similar experience as you if the dialogue was replaced by some cheap local actors talking over the original dialogue instead?
If you're saying that there's no dubbing of, well anything that's not entirely correct. You can find both subtitled and dubbed versions of American shows in Japan. There are even clips of the French dub of Star Trek Voyager with mock subtitles to make it appear the characters are cursing up a storm.

To answer the question, though, while they would be watching the same thing but they would not be getting the same experience. It would be the same as watching DBZ in Japanese when it is not your native language and relying upon subtitles to understand the dialogue. This isn't an argument against subtitles, but I could not turn off the subtitles and know where one word ends and the next begins. Except for a few select words, I couldn't do that with the subtitles unless it was romanized translation of the Japanese words.
Would you be experiencing the show just the same way if you muted it and had a friend read the script to you while you were watching?
I don't know if you just have something against dubs in general, but there is a distinct difference between "reading" and "acting" and professional actors can pull off a performance during a table read of a script.

Either way, unless you are fluent in the native language of the program you are watching, you will not get the same experience as a native speaker of that language. There's nothing wrong with having a different experience, as two different people will have different experiences even if they are both native speakers of the language in question. One may like Trunks while the other may like Goten, it's not an exact science.

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by Sanity's_Theif » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:28 am

-I don't like having to read subtitles
-I can't stand Goku's japanese voice, when he yells it makes my ears bleed
-I can't stand the music, I think it mostly sounds like marching band music and doesn't fit the atmosphere well

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by rereboy » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:22 am

Pafupafu wrote:
- If you aren't fluent in Japanese, it is a completely different experience than watching just the animation as 30% or more of the time of each second, your eyes are READING.
As a citizen of a country that only subs virtually every piece of foreign media on TV, DVD and Bluray, and also has a fair amount of national media on those mediums (which obviously has no subs), I find this reason laughable.

You are simply not used to it.

Someone like me, who is more than used to it, doesn't notice any difficulty in following/reading the subs while enjoying the picture and the audio without the experience being negatively affected by it. In fact, for someone who is more than used to it like me, there are only advantages to that. I can experience the image and the audio perfectly as well as the subs. That means that the original audio is kept and I still understand what they are saying (if they are speaking in a language that I don't understand). I even wish that even our national media always had subs for those times when someone talks too fast or in a weird way and I can't understand what they said.

Not to mention that this method is very effective in making people comfortable with foreign languages. In my country there are tons of people that actually understand basic english without having ever officially learned it just because they watched a good amount of american/english shows and movies on TV.

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Re: REAL Reasons to Dislike the Original Japanese Version

Post by dbboxkaifan » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:37 am

rereboy @ I concur. People aren't used and then it leads to laziness of only watching it dubbed (or its original idiom which may be English, Spanish, French, etc).

I do agree with Pafu that I'm not having the same experience as someone who's watching Doraemon in Japanese in its authenticity because the subs are mediocre and instead of using the real names it uses the Chinese translation (Japanese > Chinese > English).

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