Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

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Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:17 pm

So, it's no surprise that Dragon Ball has quite a few plotholes littered throughout it's story, but how have you self remedied these mistakes with the use of your own theories?

To get this started, lets begin with a classic, Trunks telling Gokuu that Artificial Humans #19 & #20 are come in three years instead of #17 & #18.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:21 pm

Insertclevername wrote:So, it's no surprise that Dragon Ball has quite a few plotholes littered throughout it's story, but how have you self remedied these mistakes with the use of your own theories?

To get this started, lets begin with a classic, Trunks telling Gokuu that Artificial Humans #19 & #20 are come in three years instead of #17 & #18.
Trunks never said 19 and 20 were the androids that destroyed his future.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:28 pm

#17 and #18 end up being the main artificial humans is more like a retcon then a plot hole.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:29 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Trunks never said 19 and 20 were the androids that destroyed his future.
Yes, he did. When he told Goku about them initially.

Wait, or was that your theory to fill the plothole? :wink:

Anyway, I guess this is less filling the hole than giving my opinion on how it should have been done, but I always thought it would have been simple to retcon this without having a plothole at all. Just say the changes made to the timeline changed the order and thus the numbering of the artificial humans. So that in his timeline, the boy and girl are referred to as #19 and #20, while in the main timeline, their production was moved up, so that the clown and old man are #19 and #20 instead. Simple. Easy. Seamless.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Saiga » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:31 pm

Insertclevername wrote:So, it's no surprise that Dragon Ball has quite a few plotholes littered throughout it's story, but how have you self remedied these mistakes with the use of your own theories?

To get this started, lets begin with a classic, Trunks telling Gokuu that Artificial Humans #19 & #20 are come in three years instead of #17 & #18.
#19 and #20 did actually show up in his timeline, but since he was never there for it he was going off second-hand information and didn't realize #19 and #20 were different Androids. IIRC he doesn't refer to any of theAndroids as #17 and #18 until they're identified as such in the manga, right? So he might not have known the right numbers of the future Androids.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by penguintruth » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:33 pm

How would Trunks even know what number they are? Did he stop and ask their names?
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by bleed0range » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:57 pm

How about that whole Tapion giving Trunks of the androidless future his sword only for him to... use it.... when he goes back in the past to kill Frieza to save a future where everyone was destroyed by the Androids. I would say that this isn't the case if they didn't play a little clip show right after the end. Ahhh but that's the movies.

How about the fact that it makes no sense that Trunks can go back to the future to destroy the androids if they're destroyed in the past unless it makes some kind of alternate timeline and if so how in the world does he get to choose which timeline he goes back to. If one of the others jumped in the time machine would it take them back to Trunks future? I hate how that makes no sense. lol.

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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:04 pm

It's pretty well explained and set it stone that time traveling will always create an alternate timeline independent of the one you come from. Part of the point is that Trunks believes that changing SOMEONE'S future is worth it, even if it won't help his own time.

As for returning to your own timeline, perhaps that's also just one of the laws of time travel physics.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:08 pm

I currently don't have the manga chapter on me, but does anyone know if Trunks or Gohan ever refer to the Artificial Humans as their respective numbers?
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Saiga » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:08 pm

I view the clip show as symbolic. Future Trunks had a sword, now Present Trunks has a sword (but not the same sword) and it's all nice and symbolic of him growing up to be similar or some shit.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by bleed0range » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:11 pm

VegettoEX wrote:It's pretty well explained and set it stone that time traveling will always create an alternate timeline independent of the one you come from. Part of the point is that Trunks believes that changing SOMEONE'S future is worth it, even if it won't help his own time.

As for returning to your own timeline, perhaps that's also just one of the laws of time travel physics.
I don't doubt that the timeline's split. Obviously he came from an alternate one. But if he changed the past, then he should technically be unable to return to HIS future. It would have changed what the future would be and he would thus be traveling into that future.

Of course I'm adhering to Back to the Future rules of time travel here, but I think it makes more sense. You can just throw your hands up and say "that's just time travel!" but it still seems kind of confusing.

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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:14 pm

Saiga wrote:I view the clip show as symbolic. Future Trunks had a sword, now Present Trunks has a sword (but not the same sword) and it's all nice and symbolic of him growing up to be similar or some shit.
Oh yeah, I agree as well. I feel that's one of those things that are just frequently misinterpreted as literal fact. Which is strange considering it would make absolutely no sense if it was literally how Trunks gets his sword.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by bleed0range » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:17 pm

Insertclevername wrote:
Saiga wrote:I view the clip show as symbolic. Future Trunks had a sword, now Present Trunks has a sword (but not the same sword) and it's all nice and symbolic of him growing up to be similar or some shit.
Oh yeah, I agree as well. I feel that's one of those things that are just frequently misinterpreted as literal fact. Which is strange considering it would make absolutely no sense if it was literally how Trunks gets his sword.
If that's true the the swords shouldn't be identical. What you're saying makes sense, but the decision to give him an identical sword and then show a clip of an older Trunks using what looks like the same exact sword is kind of... weird.

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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:19 pm

bleed0range wrote:I don't doubt that the timeline's split. Obviously he came from an alternate one. But if he changed the past, then he should technically be unable to return to HIS future. It would have changed what the future would be and he would thus be traveling into that future.

Of course I'm adhering to Back to the Future rules of time travel here, but I think it makes more sense. You can just throw your hands up and say "that's just time travel!" but it still seems kind of confusing.
As much as I'm also a huge Back to the Future fan, that's the whole point -- it's a completely different explanation of time travel. His past/present/future remains exactly the same, and only creates a new timeline branched off at the point that he arrives, one that he does not belong to.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:22 pm

bleed0range wrote: If that's true the the swords shouldn't be identical. What you're saying makes sense, but the decision to give him an identical sword and then show a clip of an older Trunks using what looks like the same exact sword is kind of... weird.
True, and I think that's where I felt Toei (or Toriyama since he did do the design) failed -- or at the very least, poorly -- conveyed their symbolism, which subsequently led to all the rumors and misinterpretation that Tapion appeared in Mirai Trunk's timeline.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by bleed0range » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:23 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
bleed0range wrote:I don't doubt that the timeline's split. Obviously he came from an alternate one. But if he changed the past, then he should technically be unable to return to HIS future. It would have changed what the future would be and he would thus be traveling into that future.

Of course I'm adhering to Back to the Future rules of time travel here, but I think it makes more sense. You can just throw your hands up and say "that's just time travel!" but it still seems kind of confusing.
As much as I'm also a huge Back to the Future fan, that's the whole point -- it's a completely different explanation of time travel. His past/present/future remains exactly the same, and only creates a new timeline branched off at the point that he arrives, one that he does not belong to.
But then that creates plot holes in and of itself (or a paradox rather) because if he kills the Cell that traveled back in time that started that whole mess then he basically undoes everything that just happened. That cell can no longer go back in time to ultimately be killed by Gohan. It means he should have let Cell go back in time still and only killed the androids.

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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:32 pm

No, because, again, you're applying Back to the Future's mutable timeline rules to this. In branching timelines, there can be no paradoxes because any alteration will exist in its own self-contained universe. Trunks from the future could take out his sword and stab his baby self until he's unrecognizable, but it would cause no paradox or affect the adult version in any way because they're entirely separate people.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Sin » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:36 pm

Well basically there should be infinite timelines, and I theorize the time machine can somehow record the timeline it has come from and travels that way.

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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Herms » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:40 pm

Insertclevername wrote:I currently don't have the manga chapter on me, but does anyone know if Trunks or Gohan ever refer to the Artificial Humans as their respective numbers?
When Trunks warns Goku about the androids, in the manga he specifically refers to them as 19 and 20 (in the anime he doesn't mention any numbers). Then of course later he has no clue who 19 and 20 are. 20 says he'll go wake up 17 and 18, and Piccolo says these must be the two Trunks knew. At this point Trunks now seems familiar with the designations "17" and "18", explaining that 17 is a boy with a scarf and 18 is a girl wearing clothes similar to his own. Can't remember if he shows any familiarity with the pair's numbers in Trunks: the Story or the Trunks TV special.
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Re: Dragon Ball plotholes and your theories!

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:45 pm

Herms wrote:
Insertclevername wrote:I currently don't have the manga chapter on me, but does anyone know if Trunks or Gohan ever refer to the Artificial Humans as their respective numbers?
When Trunks warns Goku about the androids, in the manga he specifically refers to them as 19 and 20. Then of course later he has no clue who 19 and 20 are. 20 says he'll go wake up 17 and 18, and Piccolo says these must be the two Trunks knew. At this point Trunks now seems familiar with the designations "17" and "18", explaining that 17 is a boy with a scarf and 18 is a girl wearing clothes similar to his own.
Woops, I meant in the flashback chapter where Trunks and Gohan are in the future, fighting the Artificial Humans. So, yeah, in that specific chapter, does Mirai Gohan or Trunks call them #17 or #18?
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