Discussion on who's the most important character in Z

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Conan the SSJ
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Discussion on who's the most important character in Z

Post by Conan the SSJ » Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:09 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Conan the SSJ wrote: Regaurding Gohan, I personally love the idea that he's getting the most forms/characters, Z is his show IMO.
Z is Goku's show. Gohan is the special guest star.
Goku's shows are original DB and GT, the Z series is centered around Gohan's growing, maturing, and power, and Toriyama had stated he intended for Gohan to be the ultimate hero against Buu. Though his baka editor and majority of fans in Japan were pressuring him to bring Goku back. Think about it how the show's sagas progressed.

The Saiyan saga was basicly the birth of Gohan's training and hidden power peeks, he eventually proved he had the power to take down the likes of even Vegeta. The Namek/Frieza sagas gave us MANY peeks into his mysterious hidden powers while Goku was either in outer space or in the Rejuvination Chamber, and showed that even when Frieza was in his final form, Gohan still had the stamina and power to go one on one with him after all he went through. The Garlic Jr. saga alone, while pure filler, proved that Gohan could save Earth without Goku, and Toei gave us a treat of how much more his show Z was. Next came the Android arc, which the first 50% of it had Gohan as a mere side character and focused on Trunks, Vegeta, and Goku, it did show that Gohan ultimatly became the youngest Super Saiyan (until Goten and Present Trunks that is) and in the Cell Games, Goku gave full faith to him that he could beat Cell, which he did and became the hero of Earth. Finally came the Buu arc, which skipped straight to his high school years and an unfortunate drop of power (which he later regained in the first battle with fat Buu), as Gohan was taken out of action by Buu, Kaioshin saw the potential in Gohan of him being the one to "draw the Z sword and end the universe's supreme evil", Gohan hence fourth drew the Z sword, shattered it (freeing Old Kaioshin), and Old Kaioshin saw the same potential in Gohan his decendant did. With the end of Z approaching, Gohan had his highest possible hidden powers unlocked by Old Kaioshin, and thus became the strongest unfused "good" character in the show (next to Goku's 100% SSJ3), he was supposed to defeat Buu, however Toriyama's editor and nit-picky fans balled the poor guy with demands for Goku to be the hero, thus Buu absorbed Gohan and eventually killed him with Earth, however Gohan did get one last significant importance in Z: rather anyone likes it or not, he alone had to of given at least over half the energy for Goku's ultimate Genki-dama against Kid Buu.
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Post by MajinMetroid » Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:35 pm

I agree that Gohan should have been the one to kill Buu. I really sucks that Toriyama didn't have the freedom to write it all as he wanted to. The ending of the Buu fights was kind of like the end of Return of the Jedi. The Death Star was already destroyed in A New Hope and Goku had already used the Genki Dama as a finisher on many other villians, depending on whether you take into consideration the movies.

I think a much more real, fulfilling character arc for Gohan would have had him dying, sacrificing himself, not unlike Vegeta earlier but succeeding. His death would sort of set right all the times he let people down in the past. Then perhaps Goten and Trunks becoming the center of a third show.

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Post by Rocketman » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:39 pm

The problem with "Gohan was supposed to be Z's hero" is that it doesn't take into account the original ending for Z, which was Super Saiyan Goku killing Freeza, being lost in space, and Piccolo as the strongest of Earth's warriors.

The second half of DBZ, I can see how the focus tried to shift to Gohan, but the first half is Goku's.

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Post by *PINHEAD* » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:08 pm

It was evident from the beginning that Son Gohan was meant to be a sort of "replacement" to Goku. First, he surpassed his father in power level when he broke out of Raditz's space pod. Then he beat Vegeta to a pulp. Then he had his "hidden powers" awakened by Saichourou (sp?). Then the whole deal with Cell and Majin Buu.

But keeping Goku as the main star gives more closure to the series. Perhaps if the manga itself had been named Dragon Ball Z, Gohan could've became the main character. But since it remained as one series, it was only fitting that the original main character retain his spot. It's just a shame Gohan became what he was at the end.
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Post by ChaotixXero » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:43 pm

Gohan always wanted to be a scholar didn't he? I liked it that Goku finished buu off with the Genki Dama. But it really is dissapointing that the creator couldn't make his series the way he wanted because of the fans.

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Post by Rocketman » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:36 pm

ChaotixXero wrote:Gohan always wanted to be a scholar didn't he? I liked it that Goku finished buu off with the Genki Dama. But it really is dissapointing that the creator couldn't make his series the way he wanted because of the fans.
No, it's not. If he did, DB would have ended with the 10th graphic novel, which would probably be after the Baba Saga.

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Post by ChaotixXero » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:58 pm

I meant the Buu saga not the other ones....

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Post by Last Son of Krypton » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:09 pm

From the beginning of Z to the end of the Frieza saga I would say Goku was the most important character. After Frieza, however, I don't really know who it would be. The case could be made for Gohan because he was the one to kill Cell after Goku died. I'll have to think about it.

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Post by masenko » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:45 am

I would've loved for the series to end with SS Goku, however, the build-up as to what a super saiyan actually is was under-developed (Vegeta's quick mentionings). The only thing I would've missed would be SS2 Gohan, but hey, Toriyama is still the man.

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Post by Dayspring » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:02 am

Actually I still think it's Goku. Z is more of a transition stage from Goku to the next generation of protectors. In the Radditz arc, Gohan just manages to fall flat of defeating Radditz with a single blow. So Goku comes in and saves the day. Against Nappa, Piccolo saves him, causing Gohan to go all out and still fail. At this point, Goku comes in and saves the day. Granted, Oozaru Gohan saved the day against Vegeta, but that's only because Goku's body was crushed and it would have been a cop-out to use Oozaru Goku. Against the Ginyu Force, Gohan fails and Goku saves the day. Against Freeza, Gohan (healed by Dende) fails and Goku saves the day.

Even in Trunks' timeline it's like this: Goku's not there because of his heart disease, so what happens? Everybody dies. Gohan's left to train the next generation of fighter, Trunks, but when it comes time to prove their salt, both get their asses handed to them repeatedly.

Back to mainstream, Gohan FINALLY saves the day! Yay! Ergo everything in Z was about him all along! Wrong. Next saga comes along and Gohan is useless. Goku saves the day by friggin' travelling across the afterlife (albeit with complete help given by Baba) and teaches Trunks+Goten fusion (for those not noticing a pattern, "training the next generation of fighters"). But they get cocky and now Gohan, at the apex of his might and glory, fails and gets assimilated. The end.

Oh wait! What do I mean "the end?" Silly me! Goku comes and saves the day! But to continue with what I've been saying all along, a new wave of protectors, Earth's inhabitants themselves, save the world from Buu, to symbolize that Goku finally achieved his goal in getting somebody else to save the day! Huzzah!

Flash forwards ten years and it turns out that Goku's been spending years training yet another of the next generation of Earth's protectors, Pan. But that's not the core of this last saga. The main point is the last budoukai, where Gohan does absolutely nothing, thus further disproving the theory that Z's all about him. What happens in this mini-saga? Goku takes off to train another fighter to become Earth's protector in his stead!

I think you all get my point by now. So if I absolutely must chose one single person, I'd still say Goku since it's clearly about Goku and the next generation of fighters. Then GT was a cop-out in every way so still Goku. :P
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Post by Gamingdevil » Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:31 am

Dayspring wrote:Actually I still think it's Goku. Z is more of a transition stage from Goku to the next generation of protectors. In the Radditz arc, Gohan just manages to fall flat of defeating Radditz with a single blow. So Goku comes in and saves the day. Against Nappa, Piccolo saves him, causing Gohan to go all out and still fail. At this point, Goku comes in and saves the day. Granted, Oozaru Gohan saved the day against Vegeta, but that's only because Goku's body was crushed and it would have been a cop-out to use Oozaru Goku. Against the Ginyu Force, Gohan fails and Goku saves the day. Against Freeza, Gohan (healed by Dende) fails and Goku saves the day.

Even in Trunks' timeline it's like this: Goku's not there because of his heart disease, so what happens? Everybody dies. Gohan's left to train the next generation of fighter, Trunks, but when it comes time to prove their salt, both get their asses handed to them repeatedly.

Back to mainstream, Gohan FINALLY saves the day! Yay! Ergo everything in Z was about him all along! Wrong. Next saga comes along and Gohan is useless. Goku saves the day by friggin' travelling across the afterlife (albeit with complete help given by Baba) and teaches Trunks+Goten fusion (for those not noticing a pattern, "training the next generation of fighters"). But they get cocky and now Gohan, at the apex of his might and glory, fails and gets assimilated. The end.

Oh wait! What do I mean "the end?" Silly me! Goku comes and saves the day! But to continue with what I've been saying all along, a new wave of protectors, Earth's inhabitants themselves, save the world from Buu, to symbolize that Goku finally achieved his goal in getting somebody else to save the day! Huzzah!

Flash forwards ten years and it turns out that Goku's been spending years training yet another of the next generation of Earth's protectors, Pan. But that's not the core of this last saga. The main point is the last budoukai, where Gohan does absolutely nothing, thus further disproving the theory that Z's all about him. What happens in this mini-saga? Goku takes off to train another fighter to become Earth's protector in his stead!

I think you all get my point by now. So if I absolutely must chose one single person, I'd still say Goku since it's clearly about Goku and the next generation of fighters. Then GT was a cop-out in every way so still Goku. :P
You know, you're entirely right, even though it was probably the fault of Toei and the fan boys, the entire Dragonball series are about Goku.
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Post by MajinMetroid » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:09 pm

Why label the series with who it's about anyway? Their definitly about more than just one person and that's one of its strengths, the numerous characters and how different they are from each other. Each fighter has done their fair share in each fight, but Goku is always there when things get over everyone else's head. You really can't argue that Goku isn't the main character, but in my opinion it's not a huge deal.

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Post by gallagtor » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:03 pm

ChaotixXero wrote:Gohan always wanted to be a scholar didn't he? I liked it that Goku finished buu off with the Genki Dama. But it really is dissapointing that the creator couldn't make his series the way he wanted because of the fans.
Cough cough George Lucas cough. And look how that turned out. Anyway, it would be interesting to see DBZ rewritten to fit Toriyama-sensei's original vision. I think that Gohan would have been a better fit for main character toward the end.

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Post by Gamingdevil » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:10 pm

Well his original vision was to quit after Freeza was defeated, so Gohan wouldn't be much of a hero either way. It was Toei in the first place that kept him going.
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Post by Son Goku » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:14 pm

Isn't that why the Freeza fight dragged on for a long time? Since they didn't know if that was truly the end or not?
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Post by Bejiita » Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:51 pm

I'm going to say Vegeta because my username is.

Not. But seriously, it does feel good when he easily over powers enemies, seeing him mash up Android 19 and Cell's 2nd form is funny, and even when he goes all out on Fat Buu, that's cool, plus all the battles he has on Namek.

The most important would be Goku though, obviously.

Even though I like Gohan, I think Goku is well and truly the saviour and most important. He's always there to save the day, even if it isn't him in battle, it was his doings that drew out Gohan's power to beat Cell, let alone training him, but still...

People can say Gohan was intended to be the 'hero' because Toriyama was going to end it at Cell saga, but then again you can say he wanted Goku to be the hero because he was going to finish Z at the Freeza saga. So where the Buu saga comes it's only right to end it the way it was first inended to be, Goku as the one.

I ain't going into detail about he's noble, brave and so on because it's a cartoon character, Goku being the saviour is the way it should be in my opinion, all of he's entrances are awesome, be it when he arrives to fight Vegeta and Nappa, and twice in the freeza saga, first, when he get's off he's ship to fight the Ginyu Force, and secondly, to fight Freeza.

I still think Gohan ending Cell and Z ending there still would have been great.
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Post by Sun_Wukong » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:10 pm

Bejiita you could be half right. Vejiita was brought in as a new rival for Goku, since his old one, well, went soft. But the focus of DB will always be Goku. Everything has revolved around him, even the hatching of Buu. If he hadnt fought Vejiita, Babidi wouldnt have had enough energy to hatch him

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Post by Son Goku » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:40 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:Vejiita was brought in as a new rival for Goku
Actuall, Vegeta was brought in as a villan, but, due to popular demand, he was turned into Son Goku's rival.
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Post by Adnan » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:20 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:Well his original vision was to quit after Freeza was defeated, so Gohan wouldn't be much of a hero either way. It was Toei in the first place that kept him going.
First off, hey everyone. It's been a while but I'm back. :D A bit more busy these days but I'll find some time to hop in once in a while.

While it's true that Toriyama intended to stop after Freeza, Toriyama had been dropping hints right from the start that Gohan was someone of great potential (examples like the fights against Raditz, Vegeta and Freeza) and would definitely end up being the strongest of the fighters considering he was that much more powerful than when Goku was the same age.

So while I agree that Goku was the star of the show, Toriyama wanted to highlight Gohan (though in a subtle manner) as being the one who would eventually become the most powerful of all.

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Post by Gamingdevil » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:37 am

Adnan wrote:So while I agree that Goku was the star of the show, Toriyama wanted to highlight Gohan (though in a subtle manner) as being the one who would eventually become the most powerful of all.
If I am not mistaking, Piccolo even mentions it when they are sparring before the Saiyans arrive, that might be just some dub mistake though :?
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