Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

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Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Ketchup_Revenge » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:47 am

Original depiction:
Image
Image

Flame-like aura with no electric bolts.

More recent depictions:
Image
Image

His more recent depictions go against everything that we think we know about Super Saiyan auras. Currently, In the first Super Saiyan form, he clearly depicts a more streaky aura with electrical bolts, more indicant of Super Saiyan 2. What gives???
I wipe it off the tile, the light is brighter this time, everything is 3D blasphemy.
My eyes are red and gold, the hair is standing straight up, this is not the way I picture me.
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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Insertclevername » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:51 am

You mean the lightening/sparks? I don't know. It confuses me too and I'm not a fan of it. It just gives people further reason to actually confuse Super Saiyan 1 with Super Saiyan 2Grade V lol.
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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Ketchup_Revenge » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:05 am

Insertclevername wrote:You mean the lightening/sparks? I don't know. It confuses me too and I'm not a fan of it. It just gives people further reason to actually confuse Super Saiyan 1 with Super Saiyan 2Grade V lol.
I actually don't mind it at all, but I just wish that he used that originally. Even Vegeta and Onio in Neko Majin display this aura with "lightning", so this isn't just a Goku thing. I was just curious if anyone had heard a reason for it.
I wipe it off the tile, the light is brighter this time, everything is 3D blasphemy.
My eyes are red and gold, the hair is standing straight up, this is not the way I picture me.
I can't control my shakes, how the hell did I get here? Something about this, so very wrong.
I have to laugh out loud, I wish I didn't like this. Is it a dream or a memory?

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Kaboom » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:09 am

I think it's just a matter of evolving art styles more than anything else. Maybe, and this is a very slim chance, Toriyama does mean to imply in later things like Neko Majin that Goku's gotten so strong that he shows some SSj2 traits while in SSj1, or he's achieved some sort of "advanced SSj1" thing where the two forms kind of blend together. But again, not likely. I doubt there's much thought put into it beyond "lightning bolts in the aura look cool."

In the original DB manga, at least, there's consistency, and that's the only place where it's "important." After all, I sincerely doubt anyone's going to be debating the in-universe powers and intricacies of Neko Majin.
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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by NeoKING » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:34 am

Because Akira Toriyama does this cool thing where he doesn't give a f-ck.

Honestly, it's because he's lazy, lol. His art has gotten much more simpler, so instead of super flaming battle aura, we get more refined lightning bolts. Doesn't really matter though, SSJ1 and SSJ2 are pretty much the same compared to SSJ3, which is unique in it's appearance.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Saiyan Prince Vegeta » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:19 am

I'd like to see how he would try to distinguish SSJ2 from the newer art style of SSJ with characters like Vegeta who's hair doesn't really change.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:15 am

The Daizenshuu say that about the first change of the aura is because Goku became a Super Saiyan Full Power, though while we only have officially confirmed Goku & Gohan as the only Super Saiyan Full Power, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Perfect Cell, Future Cell, Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, and Vegetto had the same aura (and Goten even had the "round eyes", a trait only visible in the Super Saiyan Full Power form). So, maybe all these characters became Super Saiyan Full Power, or Toriyama decided to change the aura starting from the Cell Games, and the Daizenshuu got it wrongly because the change happened with the first appearance of Super Saiyan Full Power.

As for the second change, Vegetto had sparks as a Super Saiyan in the manga as well. So, maybe it's because Goku has gotten so strong, that his ki produces lightning, like Vegetto did (not saying that Goku reached Vegetto's level, or even got close). But then again, Vegetto's aura produced lightning only in one panel, when he transformed, while Goku's aura in Neko Majin passively produces lightning. Though one could say that Vegetto's aura didn't passively produced lightning because he was just toying with Boo and wasn't showing his full power. So, maybe when a Super Saiyan has reached a certain level of power, and goes all out, his aura produces lightning.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Marco Polo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:10 am

Toriyama obviously simply forgot. Recently he didn't even remember the color of 18's hair...

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:43 am

Marco Polo wrote:Toriyama obviously simply forgot. Recently he didn't even remember the color of 18's hair...
He was drawing the Super Saiyan aura all the time, while he was rarely coloring his characters.

Besides, do we have proof that Toriyama made #18 with purple hair? I don't remember any, and it sounds really strange, since he should have seen colored #18 during the movie's production.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Cold Skin » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:05 am

As long as there's lightning, I consider it Super Saiyan 2.

The hair is a difference that is too subtle to be taken in account for me, so all that I need to know is: Super Saiyan has no lightning, Super Saiyan 2 has lightning. No need to look for more.
Whether the characters choose to enter Super Saiyan or directly Super Saiyan 2 state is all up to them depending on the situation.

Here, it is obvious to me that Neko Majin and Goku both enter Super Saiyan 2 directly, even though they don't need to refer to it by a numbered name since it pretty much shows what a Super Saiyan is like, 1 or 2 alike.
If I were them, and I felt the need to enter the Super Saiyan 2 against an opponent, I would still present it like "I present you the Super Saiyan state" or "see? I can become a Super Saiyan too", not mentionning any number.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Marco Polo wrote:Toriyama obviously simply forgot. Recently he didn't even remember the color of 18's hair...
He was drawing the Super Saiyan aura all the time, while he was rarely coloring his characters.

Besides, do we have proof that Toriyama made #18 with purple hair? I don't remember any, and it sounds really strange, since he should have seen colored #18 during the movie's production.
If I'm not mistaken, it was said by the movie cast at the convention in December.

And he couldn't have seen it through the movie's production since it was before the movie staff had drawn anything, when they asked Toriyama to provide them with character designs.
Then Toriyama showed C-18 with purple hair, and the staff had to tell him it was a bit of a stretch compared to her original blond hair, probably like "huh... okay, but... we'll draw her just like you designed, with the new clothes and all, but with blond hair, okay? Cause you know... she always had blond hair so far." and Toriyama was probably like "really? Oh well, maybe I do confuse her with another female cyborg in another manga of mine". :D

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:33 am

Cold Skin wrote:As long as there's lightning, I consider it Super Saiyan 2.

The hair is a difference that is too subtle to be taken in account for me, so all that I need to know is: Super Saiyan has no lightning, Super Saiyan 2 has lightning. No need to look for more.
Whether the characters choose to enter Super Saiyan or directly Super Saiyan 2 state is all up to them depending on the situation.

Here, it is obvious to me that Neko Majin and Goku both enter Super Saiyan 2 directly, even though they don't need to refer to it by a numbered name since it pretty much shows what a Super Saiyan is like, 1 or 2 alike.
If I were them, and I felt the need to enter the Super Saiyan 2 against an opponent, I would still present it like "I present you the Super Saiyan state" or "see? I can become a Super Saiyan too", not mentionning any number.
There is a big difference between Goku's Super Saiyan hairstyle & Super Saiyan 2 hairstyle, and the hairstyle that Goku has in Neko Majin Z is 100% NOT his Super Saiyan 2 hairstyle.

Image

Cold Skin wrote:If I'm not mistaken, it was said by the movie cast at the convention in December.

And he couldn't have seen it through the movie's production since it was before the movie staff had drawn anything, when they asked Toriyama to provide them with character designs.
Then Toriyama showed C-18 with purple hair, and the staff had to tell him it was a bit of a stretch compared to her original blond hair, probably like "huh... okay, but... we'll draw her just like you designed, with the new clothes and all, but with blond hair, okay? Cause you know... she always had blond hair so far." and Toriyama was probably like "really? Oh well, maybe I do confuse her with another female cyborg in another manga of mine". :D
Oh, all right then. Then I guess it's true after all.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by soulnova » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:04 am

I thought you guys were going to debate the general evolution of the details on the hair, but you went with the sparks... :eh:
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Marco Polo » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:15 am

There isn't much to debate regarding the details on the hair. The style of Goku and Vegeta's hair changed all the time in the series.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by soulnova » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:32 am

There isn't much to debate regarding the details on the hair. The style of Goku and Vegeta's hair changed all the time in the series.
:eh: Isn't that the whole point of this thread? "Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?"

In any case, the two answers we can assume from AT would be: "Because it looks cool" and "I forgot".
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Cold Skin » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:08 pm

I think of it more like "he stopped changing the hair for Super Saiyan 2" rather than "he started putting lightnings for Super Saiyan 1".

Apart from Cell Game Gohan, the hairstyle is a detail that can pretty much go unnoticed (a matter of "how many bangs they have in front of their forehead" or "how thin their hair spikes are" - it's especially hard to notice with Vegeta for example), while the lightnings are the most striking and important part to make a difference between the two states. If you had to keep one of those elements to make the difference, it would not be the hair, it would be the super-lightnings all over, and it wouldn't be surprising if Toriyama's memory made that choice exactly! :wink:

If he forgot one thing, it's that hairstyle has a minimal change in Super Saiyan 2, more likely than forgetting Super Saiyan 1 doesn't have lightnings. 8)
I totally see him thinking "and we'll make them Super Saiyan 2 directly, I remember there were cool, powerful-looking lightnings" totally forgetting there was any hairstyle difference between 1 and 2. :)

But we'll never know for sure, I guess with that in-between drawing (just one characteristic element out of two), anyone is free to border on the Super Saiyan 1 side or the Super Saiyan 2 side.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Kaboom » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:19 pm

I think I'm starting to agree with Cold Skin, especially with the idea of "Toriyama's memory making the choice" as to which part of SSj2 was more distinct and worth preserving. The lightning bolts really do stand out and visually define Super Saiyan 2 more than any of its other traits.

Though at the same time, that sort of thing would probably only hold true for Goku and Vegeta. I'm sure if Toriyama was tasked to draw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games, he probably wouldn't give him his SSj1 hair.
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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:29 pm

Sparks just signify power IMO. Their are clear differences between SSJ and SSJ2 so I don't see a problem here, except for Vegeta. They need to do something with Vegeta's hair like make it spread out more and have it be more pointed or something. We could also just assume that Goku mastered his SSJ2 form thus making for a more calm look which would make his face and hair the way it is.
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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Ketchup_Revenge » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:18 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Sparks just signify power IMO. Their are clear differences between SSJ and SSJ2 so I don't see a problem here, except for Vegeta. They need to do something with Vegeta's hair like make it spread out more and have it be more pointed or something. We could also just assume that Goku mastered his SSJ2 form thus making for a more calm look which would make his face and hair the way it is.
I would agree with that if there wasn't the fact that Neko Majin has sparks in his aura as well, which from the pictures and the way he talks about it, is suggested to be his own version of Super Saiyan. And since it's a parody, I highly doubt that Toriyama would create a whole bit of information about Neko Majin's transformations. Also there's the fact that Goku transformed first, and Onio displays these same traits when he transforms, and he was probably never a Super Saiyan 2. It doesn't make sense for Toriyama to almost never show a form of Super Saiyan (SSj2) in the original manga series and then suddenly have that one as the only one that appears in his parody manga. And Toriyama's not one to remember his own details. If he didn't even remember Launch, to me it's very possible that he could've forgotten about Super Saiyan 2 entirely. It seems likely to me that he he may believe that SSj and SSj3 are the only two SSj forms, and all the other ones that he came up with don't exist.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:As for the second change, Vegetto had sparks as a Super Saiyan in the manga as well.
Vegetto only had sparks due to the ki explosion when he transformed, they weren't sustained like SSj2/SSj3 or this suggested newer design of Super Saiyan.
I wipe it off the tile, the light is brighter this time, everything is 3D blasphemy.
My eyes are red and gold, the hair is standing straight up, this is not the way I picture me.
I can't control my shakes, how the hell did I get here? Something about this, so very wrong.
I have to laugh out loud, I wish I didn't like this. Is it a dream or a memory?

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:01 pm

Ketchup_Revenge wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:As for the second change, Vegetto had sparks as a Super Saiyan in the manga as well.
Vegetto only had sparks due to the ki explosion when he transformed, they weren't sustained like SSj2/SSj3 or this suggested newer design of Super Saiyan.
... Read the rest of my post.
Cold Skin wrote:I think of it more like "he stopped changing the hair for Super Saiyan 2" rather than "he started putting lightnings for Super Saiyan 1".

Apart from Cell Game Gohan, the hairstyle is a detail that can pretty much go unnoticed (a matter of "how many bangs they have in front of their forehead" or "how thin their hair spikes are" - it's especially hard to notice with Vegeta for example), while the lightnings are the most striking and important part to make a difference between the two states. If you had to keep one of those elements to make the difference, it would not be the hair, it would be the super-lightnings all over, and it wouldn't be surprising if Toriyama's memory made that choice exactly! :wink:

If he forgot one thing, it's that hairstyle has a minimal change in Super Saiyan 2, more likely than forgetting Super Saiyan 1 doesn't have lightnings. 8)
I totally see him thinking "and we'll make them Super Saiyan 2 directly, I remember there were cool, powerful-looking lightnings" totally forgetting there was any hairstyle difference between 1 and 2. :)

But we'll never know for sure, I guess with that in-between drawing (just one characteristic element out of two), anyone is free to border on the Super Saiyan 1 side or the Super Saiyan 2 side.
I disagree. A transformation is a transformation, not an aura change. Goku's appearance is exactly the same as a Super Saiyan, so, he didn't transform beyond Super Saiyan. What Goku got is an aura change, not an appearance change.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Why did Toriyama change the design of the Super Saiyan?

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:13 pm

Even just between the original depictions the design is changed. So perhaps your question is simply why did he decide to add sparks to it now? If Neko Majin is supposedly a gag manga then trying to draw some correlation to power as it pertained to Dragonball's story is probably giving it far more thought than Toriyama cared to.

Vegetto's appearance in the manga with the trait serves to indicate that he didn't have it in mind with just the sole purpose of keeping forms distinct. So taking that into account, it shouldn't come as any shock when the dynamics of his art has always been laid bare. In this case, I think it was done for simple aesthetic.

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