Thoughts on how to turn SSJ

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Thoughts on how to turn SSJ

Post by Dayspring » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:40 pm

Just thought I'd ask what you think are necessary requirements to turn super saiyan are.

We've all heard the shpeal before: only those with a pure heart that has become consumed with rage can become super saiyans. Vegeta was the exception because he was pure evil. Blablabla.

My thoughts are that all Saiyans have the ability to become super saiyan. It's simply another transformation like going Oozaru. My thought are that you must reach a certain strength and then simply train your anger. Note that, thanks to the narrator and later a comment made by Jeece, we know that the strongest Saiyan EVER only had a max PL between 30,000 and 60,000.

My guess is that you simply have to surpass your limits and enter an intense state of rage. Do that, and any Saiyan can become a super Saiyan. As a result though, only the super elite would probably be then only ones capable of going SSJ.

I also feel that Bardock would have been able to go SSJ, since he's a low level saiyan renowned for his exceptional strength (as a low level warrior). In other words, I feel he succeeded in surpassing his limits, but didn't reach a level of anger sufficient enough for him to make the change.

Thoughts?
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Post by *PINHEAD* » Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:45 am

I've always wondered about attaining the Super Saiyan state (if I recall correctly, the first thread I started here last summer was about Super Saiyans).

I see it as a trait all Saiyans are born with. My opinion on the Super Saiyan state is based largely on my views of ki in Dragon Ball in general.

I see ki as this life force the body holds. Some ki that the body uses is kept in reserve while some is used to apply to the body to make it function, give it strength, etc. A fighter basically taps into that ki reserve to give him an extra boost in power when needed.

Super Saiyan, then, is yet another ki reserve. However, this one can only be tapped into by extremely applying oneself to it. Therefore, it can for the most part be tapped into when one is exceedingly angered. I guess that pure heart thing just makes it easier to transform. So once a Saiyan has become acustomed to tapping into this power, they can eventually do it at will with ease.
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Re: Thoughts on how to turn SSJ

Post by Zackarotto » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:19 am

Dayspring wrote:We've all heard the shpeal before: only those with a pure heart that has become consumed with rage can become super saiyans. Vegeta was the exception because he was pure evil. Blablabla.
I never liked that part. He was obviously not pure hearted, but Vegeta was certainly not pure evil. Ever. My guess is that Toriyama set that "pure" thing to stop every saiyan from golding up the hair every time they got pissed off. But that's why you can say they have to vastly exceed their limits, right?

And then Toriyama ruined it by letting Trunks and Goten go super saiyan over nothing. I can picture him laughing maniacally over that right now.

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Post by Sun_Wukong » Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:29 pm

I think Toriyama constantly retaconned stuff like that just to piss off the fans.

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Post by Rocketman » Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:15 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:I think Toriyama constantly retaconned stuff like that just to piss off the fans.
Like George Lucas.

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Re: Thoughts on how to turn SSJ

Post by Dayspring » Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:30 pm

Zackarotto wrote: And then Toriyama ruined it by letting Trunks and Goten go super saiyan over nothing. I can picture him laughing maniacally over that right now.
I kind of accept that happening when you look at the circumstances of their childhood. Picture Vegeta and Goku being able to have their all-out battles anytime they wanted. That's pretty much what happened with Goten and Trunks. They don't have the kind of bond Krillin and Goku or Tenshinhan and Chaozu have; theirs is a more fierce competitive friendship, probably because of their Saiyan heritage.

Added to that, they're literally surrounded by SSJs and stories of how they're related to other SSJs. Goten lives with Gohan and is often told about how powerful is father was, while Trunks lives with Vegeta and was probably told often by his mother how powerful (and cute) the future version of himself was. It's really not that impossible to imagine Trunks nticing that Vegeta always enters a state of rage in order to transform. He probably spent weeks, maybe even months, with Goten trying to enter the super saiyan state.
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Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:38 pm

I agree that all Saiyans have the potential to go Super Saiyan, by surpassing their limits physically and emotionally. I don't really bother with the pure heart lines they fed in the story, but I see it as "pure" meaning being true to yourself, or the real deal. Someone with a heart like Freeza's for instance would never be able to obtain Super Saiyan, or another example being someone who has no discipline and only goofs off all of the time couldn't become one. This is because their hearts aren't capable of feeling any real emotions, any anger, and so they're not pure. I doubt Vegeta would have ever become a Super Saiyan if he hadn't met Goku.

As for Trunks and Goten, I see that as merely a funny joke by Toriyama-san. But I believe that the boys were just prime examples of the new generation of warriors that was developing on Earth. Like Vegeta noticed with Gohan early on, when Saiyajin blood mixes with other races, a new breed is created with far greater powers than ever before. The farther the Saiyan line would continue, the more powerful their race would become.

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Post by Rocketman » Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:29 pm

MyVisionity wrote:As for Trunks and Goten, I see that as merely a funny joke by Toriyama-san. But I believe that the boys were just prime examples of the new generation of warriors that was developing on Earth. Like Vegeta noticed with Gohan early on, when Saiyajin blood mixes with other races, a new breed is created with far greater powers than ever before. The farther the Saiyan line would continue, the more powerful their race would become.
It could also be seen as accelerated evolution.

The Saiyan race is doomed to dwindle down to nothing anyway, might as well ensure that even that tiny bit will carry on.

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Re: Thoughts on how to turn SSJ

Post by Zackarotto » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:36 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Zackarotto wrote: And then Toriyama ruined it by letting Trunks and Goten go super saiyan over nothing. I can picture him laughing maniacally over that right now.
I kind of accept that happening when you look at the circumstances of their childhood. Picture Vegeta and Goku being able to have their all-out battles anytime they wanted. That's pretty much what happened with Goten and Trunks. They don't have the kind of bond Krillin and Goku or Tenshinhan and Chaozu have; theirs is a more fierce competitive friendship, probably because of their Saiyan heritage.

Added to that, they're literally surrounded by SSJs and stories of how they're related to other SSJs. Goten lives with Gohan and is often told about how powerful is father was, while Trunks lives with Vegeta and was probably told often by his mother how powerful (and cute) the future version of himself was. It's really not that impossible to imagine Trunks nticing that Vegeta always enters a state of rage in order to transform. He probably spent weeks, maybe even months, with Goten trying to enter the super saiyan state.
I never really thought about it in that light before. Thanks for that. When you've only had one way of seeing something, it can be really interesting to see it in a different point of view after several years.

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Post by Xyex » Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:11 am

I look at Super Saiya-jin as a form of hyper evolution. I mean, Saiya-jins are geared toward survival. They're powerful, they have the Oozaru form to make them even more powerful, and then if they do get beat down they become even stronger from it after healing. Everything about them is survivalistic, and Super Saiya-jin is just another facet of that.

On realistic example, an average person can often display (though temporary) extreme feats of strength when pushed far enough, and the adrenilne gets to be really flowing. Super Saiya-jin is the same thing but taken to the next level. When they're pushed against the wall, pushed right to the breaking point, but completely refuse to accept it, they transform to match the situation.

It's not really power reliant in my opinnion. You could have a power of 50 or of 50 billion, doesn't matter. You just have to be at that breaking point. Goku probably got close a few times when he was younger, but nothing ever truly broke him until Namek.

Vegeta let his pride get in the way, he even gave up against Freeza. He never broke until he thought he'd reached his limits, that he would never be able to surpass Goku and re-claim his titles as the strongest Saiya-jin.

Gohan just had all the right buttons pushed by Goku. During their training he saw, though Goku's help, what could happen if he wasn't strong enough. And he remembered what had happened before when he wasn't strong enough. And so that broke him.

With Future Trunks (anime at least) it's pretty much the same as Goku I'd bet. Gohan's death was merely the final straw that broke him, that pushed him into that corner. But, with the likes of Goten and Trunks, I just figure they were born that way. I mean, their parents could already transform, and since I see it as a hyper evolution, having it effects the DNA and would thus be passed along to their children. (One reason I have a problem with GT is that this little element is semi-broken.)
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Post by Zackarotto » Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:37 am

Xyex wrote:I look at Super Saiya-jin as a form of hyper evolution. I mean, Saiya-jins are geared toward survival. They're powerful, they have the Oozaru form to make them even more powerful, and then if they do get beat down they become even stronger from it after healing. Everything about them is survivalistic, and Super Saiya-jin is just another facet of that.
That's good and true and everything, but they did a great job surviving when Freeza came around.
Xyex wrote:It's not really power reliant in my opinion. You could have a power of 50 or of 50 billion, doesn't matter.
Haha, but who the hell thinks they need to go SSJ when their power is already at 50 billion?

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Post by Magnaboss » Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:42 am

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Also being a fictional character can help.

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Post by *PINHEAD* » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:41 pm

As I posted before, I think that Super Saiyan is a "reserve" of ki that can be tapped in to, specifically when angered. So even if a character's "base" form is at [insert incomprehensible number] power, tapping into that reserve still gives them that extra push. It's not necessarily dependent on power, but having a lot of power and training certainly does help.

As for Son Gohan's "mystic" power-up, that old geezer mentioned it being similar, but stronger than the Super Saiyan form. That said, I view this power-up in the same way I view the Super Saiyan state--a bunch of ki one can tap in to. That's why Gohan didn't turn Super Saiyan after that power-up; tapping into his "mystic" state surpassed any Super Saiyan state he could achieve at the time.
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Post by Li'l Lemmy » Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:24 pm

*PINHEAD* wrote:As I posted before, I think that Super Saiyan is a "reserve" of ki that can be tapped in to, specifically when angered. So even if a character's "base" form is at [insert incomprehensible number] power, tapping into that reserve still gives them that extra push. It's not necessarily dependent on power, but having a lot of power and training certainly does help.
I've always wondered if said reserve . . . or rather, just how much can be tapped into and at what age . . . would multiply exponentially with each new generation. Certainly the Saiyans would continue to increase in power and ability, but would their DNA become so drastically charged with time that . . . say, we would see very young SSJ2s? This is what I thought was being signaled with young Trunks and Goten, who are able to transform early on with little effort, but perhaps they would be the exception rather than the rule. I think their ability comes (at least in part) from the lifetimes of training and hard work their fathers put into it, so in a way I believe it makes sense.

I'm not sure that Trunks or Goten would have had such an easy time had they been conceived before Goku or Vegeta learned how to transform, but since I think we can all agree that the kids' mixed blood played a hand in making it easier, I still believe that they would have found this ability faster than their fathers did, perhaps around Gohan's age when he trained to reach that state.
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Post by The S » Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:40 pm

Ki in humans is stored in the Tan Dien, which is located in the waist (between the navel and the groin). However, we don't know about Saiyans, as it may be quite different. A Saiyan may have multiple chambers for storing ki, and perhaps their ki is stored in different places, like the head or something. Or, quite possibly, Saiyans don't have ki but an equivelant that's actually something different.
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Post by Akira » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:56 pm

I think you all have hit on some excellent points. Super Saiyan is potentially achievable by any saiyan. The method of how to was forgetten, and the legend stated there had only been one to do it previously. What you need to do to answer this question is look at what all the saiyans had in common when they made thier first transformation:

-Exhaustion, out of power - YES
Son Goku - Been fighting with Freeza for hours
Vegeta - Training on a deserted world for days
Son Gohan - Training with Goku in ROSAT til he was spent
Future Trunks - Had been training with Gohan and attempting the transformation for hours, then knocked out by Gohan

-Severe desperation, life or death struggle, all or nothing - YES
Son Goku - Piccolo wounded, Krillin killed, Gohan targeted for death
Vegeta - Broken and bleeding from excessive training, hopelessness at ever overcoming Goku.
Son Gohan - Super Saiyan powered Kamehameha headed right for him, feelings of inferiority and failure to help friends in dire situations
Future Trunks - Gohan killed, the androids killed countless people, no way to ever end the nightmare

It seems to me these are the common factors that determine a transformation or not. Severe exhaustion coupled with extreme circumstances and desperation. It's more than just extreme anger. I think it also requires that you have far exceeded normal limitations of power already as a prerequisite. I do agree that Goku was on the verge of it a couple times before. When Krillin was killed the first time his hair spiked up a couple of times (Now, I know it was made well before SS was written into the story, but it is one of the only times Goku goes nuts like that and his hair itself twitches, which seems to support the idea.) Goku had the power necessary for a long time. Roshi and the others were there, so while Goku experienced extreme anger then, he only had that feeling of desperation for a second or so, which quickly became anger. He set out to kill Tambourine at that point.

Vegeta was right partially about Goku when he tried to analyze him during the Buu era. Goku was made powerul because of friends and loved ones. It was the fear of losing them and going berserk over the thought of it that made him a Super saiyan. Vegeta had the power on Namek to do it as well. His motivations were different, he just wanted to surpass Freeza and overthrow him. He was psychologicaly raised to see Freeza as the all powerful force in the galaxy so when he thought he couldn't win, it was like a child giving in to an abusive foster parent in a sense.

Goku had only just then heard of Freeza on the way to Namek. His experiences included the slaughter of a vicious militant conqueror and his army, as well as the one considered strongest on earth, Piccolo Daimao, and narrowly defeating Vegeta in battle. The thought of a fight with this Freeza just seemed like a new challenge to overcome. Freeza almost drowned him in the Anime and he thought of his family and was able to use Kaioken x20 in a final vain effort to match Freeza's battle power before having to resort to Genki Dama and eventual desperation & transformation to Super Saiyan.

Krillin, Gohan, and the rest were the ones that thought/said one had to have a Pure heart to become a Super Saiyan. Vegeta never said anything about that when he explained the legend. Krillin knew Goku had to have a pure heart to ride Kinto'un, and probably just subconsciously construed that as something that only Goku had that would allow him to become Super saiyan. Vegeta was mocking it when he said he was pure evil, he was tossing thier idea aside like trash. In reality it is nothing but significant base power, sheer desperation of the most extreme kind that usually follows severe exhaustion.

Finally on the subject of Trunks and Goten, I hate to interject pesonal feelings into a converation, but I sincerely despise that stupid "DNA passed on because thier parents were super saiyans at time of conception."

First off, there is no proving that Vegeta was a Super Saiyan when Trunks was concieved. He could have become a Super Saiyan a mere week before Androids 19 and 20 arrived. It would sure seem so as he still seemed to have to make some serious effort to change in front of them before he instinctively was able to do it faster and faster with subsequent changes to the form.

That alone ought to cast doubt on such utter nonsense. Although it is a fictional world, and you can say anything is possible, there is nothing in reality that passes traits or gained strength to a new generation of offspring, only the same genetic potential that they may or may not have. There is nothing in Toriyama's world that suggests it either. Nothing more than a pitiful theory made up by some fansub watching teen in the 1990's and perpetuated accross the internet.

I sincerely enjoyed and agreed with the explanation given in this thread. It was two saiyans, friendly rivals, fighting on a regaular basis. This gave them ample opportunity to grow fast with a constant opponent that was always on the same level with them. Not to mention SS2's in both families to spar with on occation.

When Goku was young he had the likes of Jackie Chun (Master Roshi), Tenshinhan, Tao, Piccolo Daimao and such so his power only advanced as much as the people he fought. Youth pick things up faster than adults, Gohan fought with Piccolo Junior and in a year advanced past the rest of the strongest humans on earth. (This also probably had something to do with mixed blood of Saiyan/Human hybrid as well) Goten and Trunks were fighting and being trained sooner than Goku or Gohan had been. Children advance faster and learn things faster. These factors help explain thier rapid advancement. They were products of thier environment an the caliber of people they had on hand to fight.

So what of thier desperation to become Super Saiyan? Children often throw temper tantrums, sometimes of the most severe kind. It would seem that could trigger them to transform early like that. The main thing to remember with them is having a constant challenge in each other. That was an excellent point to consider and my hat off to the member who mentioned it first in this topic.

Vegeta and Goku rarely had equal fights, and never a constant challenge. It was a rare opportunity for the boys, and also explains thier rapid advancement right under the noses of everyone else.

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