Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Roland_ELoG » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:45 pm

Gogeta 00 wrote:
ringworm128 wrote:I love how people here always complain about short posts and now that someone has made a long post they get crap for it.
I think that he was just making a playful joke.
Indeed. :) Gogeta00 doesn't make posts, he writes dissertations. I love it.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:49 pm

To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate. Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB? Are they any less of a fan than us? Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Gogeta 00 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:57 pm

Roland_ELoG wrote:
Gogeta 00 wrote:
ringworm128 wrote:I love how people here always complain about short posts and now that someone has made a long post they get crap for it.
I think that he was just making a playful joke.
Indeed. :) Gogeta00 doesn't make posts, he writes dissertations. I love it.
Haha thanks.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Thanos » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:07 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate. Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB? Are they any less of a fan than us? Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
I can't comment for certain on specific dubs apart from the American one... but personally, I think that if a dub retains accurate dialogue (or at least the dialogue maintains the same concepts), doesn't add any head-scratching, unwelcome, unneeded, superfluous plot-points and character alterations, and retains the soundtrack, then sure... if that's your preferred version, then yeah, I would still say we're a fan of the same product. I think even those who say you're not a "true" fan of the series if you only go by the dub would probably concede that fandom in the dub of Kai is legitimate fandom. There really isn't any issues with that--it's the same series, but with English voices. No changed soundtrack, no drastically different character personalities, no changing the mood or purpose of any scenes. As it should've been since 1995. It's a dub, not an American adaptation. Seems like common sense to me, and whatever FUNimation was smoking we will perhaps never know.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Looneygamemaster » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:16 pm

It's a dub, not an American adaptation.
A translated dub IS an adaptation. It can't be the exact same thing as the Japanese version.

You guys really don't give dubs enough credit.

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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Roland_ELoG » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:56 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate. Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB? Are they any less of a fan than us? Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
You have GOT to use some kind of formatting. I read this twice and I don't understand what you're trying to say.
A translated dub IS an adaptation. It can't be the exact same thing as the Japanese version.

You guys really don't give dubs enough credit.
I've got to agree with you there. I think any company in charge of localization should focus equally on accuracy and "flow." I know this is not a commonly held belief, but I do think that accurate translations end up sounding awkward and confusing.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Gogeta 00 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:35 am

TheGmGoken wrote:To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate. Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB? Are they any less of a fan than us? Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
I don't think this challenge is intended for me, since I am not claiming that a dub fan isn't a fan of Dragon Ball but the suggestion I offered based upon the claims of Adamant and Gaffertape may help to provide an answer here.

When we say that someone is a Dragon Ball fan it isn't exactly clear what we are saying that they are a fan of, since there are many different things called Dragon Ball which they could be a fan of (Original, Manga, English Dub, Spanish Dub, Arabic Dub, etc.). But it is clear that since everyone who can be called a Dragon Ball fan is a fan of at least one of these things. Furthermore it is clear that each of these things called Dragon Ball are distinct from each other. The problem is that due to each of these distinct versions sharing the same name when one says that you are less of a Dragon Ball fan then it isn't clear which version their referent is (are they a fan of the English dub or the Arabic for example) and so it isn't clear whether they are right or wrong since they could be referring to two different things.

So lets take your fan of whatever accurate dub of Dragon Ball you are referring to. Let's call his version of Dragon Ball A. And let's take a fan of the original Japanese version and call the original version J.

The person that you describe is clearly a fan of A for the reasons that you have suggested. But he is not a fan of J since he has limited exposure to it and may outright hate what he has seen of J.

Now given that he is a fan of A he is obviously less of a fan of J than a fan of J is, since he isn't even a fan of J at all. Likewise he is obviously more of a fan of A than the fan of J is since the fan of J is probably not a fan of A.

Thus if a fan of J accuses a fan of A of being less of a fan, or not a fan of J, he is saying something correct. But since A and J are both called Dragon Ball if he were to say that your character was not a fan of Dragon Ball it is really hard to tell on the surface if he is saying something correct or not. If by Dragon Ball he means version J then he is correct since your character is no fan of J. If he is saying that your character is not a fan of version A then he is incorrect, since you character is a fan of A.

To put it simply of both dub and sub fans it is correct to say that they are fans of Dragon Ball. But the things that they are a fan of are different things and their shared name causes confusions as to what they are actually a fan of. The dub fan is a fan of A and the sub fan is a fan of J. Therefore when a sub fan says that a dub fan isn't a fan of Dragon Ball he is likely saying that the dub fan is not a fan of J since J is the referent of his term "Dragon Ball" and therefore he is saying something correct.

So to give the mucky answer to your question: Your character is a fan of Dragon Ball.
To give the precise, accurate, and non-controversial answer: Your character is a fan of A.

Does this clarify things for you at all?
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by B » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:36 am

Looneygamemaster wrote:A translated dub IS an adaptation. It can't be the exact same thing as the Japanese version.
I would agree with this, except, there's a shit-ton of leeway between this and the Z dub.

The dub for Dragon Ball Kai isn't word-for-word the Japanese script, and yet it is still fairly excellent.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Roland_ELoG » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:38 am

B wrote:
Looneygamemaster wrote:A translated dub IS an adaptation. It can't be the exact same thing as the Japanese version.
I would agree with this, except, there's a shit-ton of leeway between this and the Z dub.

The dub for Dragon Ball Kai isn't word-for-word the Japanese script, and yet it is still fairly excellent.
Your mileage may vary; I find it stilted and awkward. ;)
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by El Diabeetus » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:50 am

Roland_ELoG wrote:
B wrote:
Looneygamemaster wrote:A translated dub IS an adaptation. It can't be the exact same thing as the Japanese version.
I would agree with this, except, there's a shit-ton of leeway between this and the Z dub.

The dub for Dragon Ball Kai isn't word-for-word the Japanese script, and yet it is still fairly excellent.
Your mileage may vary; I find it stilted and awkward. ;)
I would have to say the opposite. Yeah, Kai still isn't perfect but the best English dub out so far. I still wish they would've fixed the pronunciation for Saiyan (Sigh-yan/Cyan instead of Say-yan, which is plan wrong) and be more consistent with attack name choices. Also, would've liked Kaioh to be recast. Love Schemmel as Goku and now Nail (his Nail in Z used to sound like an awkward Christian Bale Batmam impression, despite Nail predating that Batman take) but still not a fan of his Kaioh.

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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by TheGmGoken » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:56 am

Roland_ELoG wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate. Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB? Are they any less of a fan than us? Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
You have GOT to use some kind of formatting. I read this twice and I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I've got to agree with you there. I think any company in charge of localization should focus equally on accuracy and "flow." I know this is not a commonly held belief, but I do think that accurate translations end up sounding awkward and confusing.
Other got it but I'll just change it a bit for you. English is not my naive language at all so sorry for bad English.
To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate.

Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB?
Are they any less of a fan than us?

Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
Gogeta 00 wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate. Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB? Are they any less of a fan than us? Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
I don't think this challenge is intended for me, since I am not claiming that a dub fan isn't a fan of Dragon Ball but the suggestion I offered based upon the claims of Adamant and Gaffertape may help to provide an answer here.

When we say that someone is a Dragon Ball fan it isn't exactly clear what we are saying that they are a fan of, since there are many different things called Dragon Ball which they could be a fan of (Original, Manga, English Dub, Spanish Dub, Arabic Dub, etc.). But it is clear that since everyone who can be called a Dragon Ball fan is a fan of at least one of these things. Furthermore it is clear that each of these things called Dragon Ball are distinct from each other. The problem is that due to each of these distinct versions sharing the same name when one says that you are less of a Dragon Ball fan then it isn't clear which version their referent is (are they a fan of the English dub or the Arabic for example) and so it isn't clear whether they are right or wrong since they could be referring to two different things.

So lets take your fan of whatever accurate dub of Dragon Ball you are referring to. Let's call his version of Dragon Ball A. And let's take a fan of the original Japanese version and call the original version J.

The person that you describe is clearly a fan of A for the reasons that you have suggested. But he is not a fan of J since he has limited exposure to it and may outright hate what he has seen of J.

Now given that he is a fan of A he is obviously less of a fan of J than a fan of J is, since he isn't even a fan of J at all. Likewise he is obviously more of a fan of A than the fan of J is since the fan of J is probably not a fan of A.

Thus if a fan of J accuses a fan of A of being less of a fan, or not a fan of J, he is saying something correct. But since A and J are both called Dragon Ball if he were to say that your character was not a fan of Dragon Ball it is really hard to tell on the surface if he is saying something correct or not. If by Dragon Ball he means version J then he is correct since your character is no fan of J. If he is saying that your character is not a fan of version A then he is incorrect, since you character is a fan of A.

To put it simply of both dub and sub fans it is correct to say that they are fans of Dragon Ball. But the things that they are a fan of are different things and their shared name causes confusions as to what they are actually a fan of. The dub fan is a fan of A and the sub fan is a fan of J. Therefore when a sub fan says that a dub fan isn't a fan of Dragon Ball he is likely saying that the dub fan is not a fan of J since J is the referent of his term "Dragon Ball" and therefore he is saying something correct.

So to give the mucky answer to your question: Your character is a fan of Dragon Ball.
To give the precise, accurate, and non-controversial answer: Your character is a fan of A.

Does this clarify things for you at all?
See unlike most people I don't believe in the whole he's the fan of Dragonball Z A or DBZ B! It's ALL DBZ. It's all the same story(English dub is debatable but as time went on Funimation became more accurate) and is all the same animation and in most cases Music. So I'm sorry to say that I disagree with you. If the Fan of "Dragonball A" has more posters, toys, dvds, and shirts while the other one just like the Dragonball "J" and that's it. Fan A is more of a fan than Fan "J". It's just how I see it. I don't believe on the whole you're a fan of Dub Dragonball! Okay what's so different about Latino, Korean, Cantonese, and English(From Cell Arc to Boo Arc) than the original Audio's Goku? Nothing at all since the dubs was some-what accurate to a degree(Depends on dub).
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Gogeta 00 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:54 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
See unlike most people I don't believe in the whole he's the fan of Dragonball Z A or DBZ B! It's ALL DBZ. It's all the same story(English dub is debatable but as time went on Funimation became more accurate) and is all the same animation and in most cases Music. So I'm sorry to say that I disagree with you. If the Fan of "Dragonball A" has more posters, toys, dvds, and shirts while the other one just like the Dragonball "J" and that's it. Fan A is more of a fan than Fan "J". It's just how I see it. I don't believe on the whole you're a fan of Dub Dragonball! Okay what's so different about Latino, Korean, Cantonese, and English(From Cell Arc to Boo Arc) than the original Audio's Goku? Nothing at all since the dubs was some-what accurate to a degree(Depends on dub).
Oh I see what you're getting at now I think.

I think that there are a few problems involved with not recognizing a distinction between the different dubs as being different versions of Dragon Ball. But for now I'll just offer my quickest and simplest. If we are to say that all of the different accurate dubs are the same thing (as you seem to be suggesting) then being a fan of Dragon Ball would mean that I would have to also be a fan of every accurate Dragon Ball dub. But I cannot call myself a fan of any of the dubs that I haven't seen, whether they are accurate or not. I know nothing of those dubs because I have never seen any of them before, I have no idea how well the voice actors portray the characters or anything else about it really. So I don't think that I could possibly consider myself a fan of that dub. Therefore since I am not a fan of any of the dubs that I have never seen I wouldn't be able to call myself a fan of Dragon Ball. In saying that I am no fan of the Arabic dub for example I am committed to the view that the Arabic dub is something different from the thing that I am a fan of. My non-fandom of a particular dub of Dragon Ball seems to guarantee that the different versions of Dragon Ball are not the same thing because if they were the same thing then being a fan of the Japanese dub would have to be the same thing as being a fun of the Arabic dub. But it isn't and thus I think it needs to be recognized that the two dubs are different things. Gaffertape explained this point quite nicely.

Also do you mind if I ask you to explain why you don't think that the different dubs are different versions of Dragon Ball? I am not sure I understand why you think this is problematic. It would help me understand your position a bit better. But only if you don't mind of course!
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Mewzard » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:04 am

I think the idea is: If you're a fan of some sort of version of Dragon Ball, you're a fan of Dragon Ball. Be it manga, Japanese Anime, some variant dub, Evolution, or that one old live action DB movie.

Think of it like the TMNT fandom.You can sub-divide that fandom into fans of the original Mirage Comics that started it (very noir, black and white with a good helping of violence, but also with some familiar character bits...), fans of the Fred Wolf Cartoon from the late 80s to mid 90s, fans of the Archie Comics based on the Fred Wolf Comics, fans of the Live Action Movies (and divide that by movie given how some fans act), fans of Saban's Live Action Ninja Turtles series, Fans of the Image Comics (which count as Volume 3 of the Comics, but Peter Laird didn't count them in his own series), fans of the 4Kids Cartoon, Fans of the Dreamwave Comics, fans of the CG Movie, Fans of the IDW Comics, Fans of the Nickelodeon Cartoon that's new, fans of the Konami Games, fans of the Music Tour, fans of the Playmates Action Figures.

The list goes on. It's an insanely divided fandom...but they're all fans of TMNT. Just different variations. Honestly, you'll find more people in the fandom that are fans of the 80s cartoon than the Source Material (even though in my view, it's infinitely superior, and quite awesome to read at any age), yet that doesn't discount any group as being lesser. They may argue it at times (because it's a hard fanbase to please), but they all care for the franchise in their own way.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Roland_ELoG » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:22 am

SSJ4 Furanki wrote:I would have to say the opposite. Yeah, Kai still isn't perfect but the best English dub out so far.
Well, that's why I say your mileage may vary. If opinions vary by so much, it's hard to say for sure it's the best version.
SSJ4 Furanki wrote:I still wish they would've fixed the pronunciation for Saiyan (Sigh-yan/Cyan instead of Say-yan, which is plan wrong) and be more consistent with attack name choices. Also, would've liked Kaioh to be recast. Love Schemmel as Goku and now Nail (his Nail in Z used to sound like an awkward Christian Bale Batmam impression, despite Nail predating that Batman take) but still not a fan of his Kaioh.
That's like trying to get people to stop saying "carry-okey." I gave up a long time ago. ;)
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Gogeta 00 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:37 am

Mewzard wrote:I think the idea is: If you're a fan of some sort of version of Dragon Ball, you're a fan of Dragon Ball. Be it manga, Japanese Anime, some variant dub, Evolution, or that one old live action DB movie.

Think of it like the TMNT fandom.You can sub-divide that fandom into fans of the original Mirage Comics that started it (very noir, black and white with a good helping of violence, but also with some familiar character bits...), fans of the Fred Wolf Cartoon from the late 80s to mid 90s, fans of the Archie Comics based on the Fred Wolf Comics, fans of the Live Action Movies (and divide that by movie given how some fans act), fans of Saban's Live Action Ninja Turtles series, Fans of the Image Comics (which count as Volume 3 of the Comics, but Peter Laird didn't count them in his own series), fans of the 4Kids Cartoon, Fans of the Dreamwave Comics, fans of the CG Movie, Fans of the IDW Comics, Fans of the Nickelodeon Cartoon that's new, fans of the Konami Games, fans of the Music Tour, fans of the Playmates Action Figures.

The list goes on. It's an insanely divided fandom...but they're all fans of TMNT. Just different variations. Honestly, you'll find more people in the fandom that are fans of the 80s cartoon than the Source Material (even though in my view, it's infinitely superior, and quite awesome to read at any age), yet that doesn't discount any group as being lesser. They may argue it at times (because it's a hard fanbase to please), but they all care for the franchise in their own way.
Again this is another nice way of explaining the point. This conditional that you start with:"If you're a fan of some sort of version of Dragon Ball, you're a fan of Dragon Ball." is pretty much bang on, and allows us to validly, soundly, and uncontroversially infer the fandom of any one who enjoys any version of Dragon Ball without also leading us to ridiculous or problematic conclusions.

The "are you a fan of Dragon Ball" issue is caused by a confusion between the versions that one may be a fan of and a tendency for people to privilege one version as being the only thing that we can truly call Dragon Ball. But in so far as every version of Dragon Ball is called Dragon Ball, then if we are a fan of any one version of Dragon Ball we can correctly say that we are a fan of Dragon Ball. I think that as you say it follows straightforwardly that being a fan of anything called Dragon Ball makes you a fan of Dragon Ball. What obviously doesn't follow (and here is where the confusions and arguments arise) is that if I am a fan of one thing called Dragon Ball then I am a fan of this other thing called Dragon Ball, or more simply it doesn't follow that my being a fan of Dragon Ball means that I am a fan of the Japanese dub, or the Arabic dub, or the English dub. All that follows from my being a fan of Dragon Ball is that I am a fan of one of the many versions of Dragon Ball.

EDIT: It just occurred to me when I was thinking about your Ninja Turtles comparison that we can make a strong inductive argument to support this criterion for determining fans of Dragon Ball as well. Induction is the form of reasoning where one reaches a general principle by examining what is common amongst each particular case. In this case we can induce the following general principle of what makes a fan by drawing comparisons between other fandoms which are similar to Dragon Ball:

"For any franchise which brings together multiple different versions of something under a single name, if x is a fan of one of the versions then x is a fan of the franchise."

Since the general set of fandoms which contain different versions under one name all seem to claim that a fan is someone who enjoys any one version (Ninja Turtles, Gundam, Batman etc.), and Dragon Ball is a fandom which contains different versions under one name, we can infer inductively that the same principle applies to Dragon Ball. From this general statement we can deductively infer the truth of the conditional offered by Mewzard (If you're a fan of some sort of version of Dragon Ball, you're a fan of Dragon Ball)

Premise one: "For all members of the set of franchises which bring together multiple versions under a single name, if x is a fan of one of the versions then x is a fan of the franchise." (inferred on the basis that all such fandoms seem to share this predominate view that being a fan of one version makes you a fan of the franchise)
Premise Two: "Dragon Ball is a member of the set of franchises which bring together multiple versions under a single name." (Something I take to be an obvious truth)
Conclusion: "If x is a fan of one of the versions of Dragon Ball then x is a fan of Dragon Ball." (A more formal way of putting Mewzard's premise)

Now I need to get the fuck to bed. I am legitimately crazy for continuing to add so much detail and argumentation into this discussion about a cartoon when I should only be focused on doing this with my school work right now.
Last edited by Gogeta 00 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by El Diabeetus » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:40 am

Roland_ELoG wrote:
SSJ4 Furanki wrote:I would have to say the opposite. Yeah, Kai still isn't perfect but the best English dub out so far.
Well, that's why I say your mileage may vary. If opinions vary by so much, it's hard to say for sure it's the best version.
SSJ4 Furanki wrote:I still wish they would've fixed the pronunciation for Saiyan (Sigh-yan/Cyan instead of Say-yan, which is plan wrong) and be more consistent with attack name choices. Also, would've liked Kaioh to be recast. Love Schemmel as Goku and now Nail (his Nail in Z used to sound like an awkward Christian Bale Batmam impression, despite Nail predating that Batman take) but still not a fan of his Kaioh.
That's like trying to get people to stop saying "carry-okey." I gave up a long time ago. ;)
Touché, but it would be nice to at least draw the line somewhere for the dub. They seemed to be afraid of alienating old fans, but it makes it a (arbitrary numbers for example purposes) 90% accurate dub rather than 99%-100% accurate. The only reason the Saiyan vs. Say-yan thing is annoying is, let's use a real example. The DBZ for Kinect trailer, people flipped shit because the narrator pronounced "Saiyan" 'wrong'. The irony being that they don't know the real pronunciation apparently. I hate 'carry-okey' (in regular speech I pronounce it correctly but usually give a disclaimer that I'm going to use the more correct one), but yeah, as you said people won't change how they pronounce things either. Bothers me about Kanto too in Pokémon, since it is literally named after the Kanto region of Japan or Raikou in Pokémon as well. At least Death Note's dub pronounced it right (Kanto), haha. But, it seems the you've dealt with the incorrect vs. correct pronunciation thing before too. So, I'm just giving my two cents. It maybe extremely nitpicky in real-life to use the proper Japanese pronunciations for all the commonly used Japanese terms and brands (at least in an American accent), but I still do it.

I've been watching Dragon Ball since '99 when I was 6-ish, but I like the Japanese and English versions. In my opinion (the beauty of opinions is we can agree or disagree and neither of us is wrong since its all perception based), I just think Kai conveys more of the original intent in English than the original Z dub.
Last edited by El Diabeetus on Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Super Sonic » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:51 am

Mewzard wrote:I think the idea is: If you're a fan of some sort of version of Dragon Ball, you're a fan of Dragon Ball. Be it manga, Japanese Anime, some variant dub, Evolution, or that one old live action DB movie.

Think of it like the TMNT fandom.You can sub-divide that fandom into fans of the original Mirage Comics that started it (very noir, black and white with a good helping of violence, but also with some familiar character bits...), fans of the Fred Wolf Cartoon from the late 80s to mid 90s, fans of the Archie Comics based on the Fred Wolf Comics, fans of the Live Action Movies (and divide that by movie given how some fans act), fans of Saban's Live Action Ninja Turtles series, Fans of the Image Comics (which count as Volume 3 of the Comics, but Peter Laird didn't count them in his own series), fans of the 4Kids Cartoon, Fans of the Dreamwave Comics, fans of the CG Movie, Fans of the IDW Comics, Fans of the Nickelodeon Cartoon that's new, fans of the Konami Games, fans of the Music Tour, fans of the Playmates Action Figures.

The list goes on. It's an insanely divided fandom...but they're all fans of TMNT. Just different variations. Honestly, you'll find more people in the fandom that are fans of the 80s cartoon than the Source Material (even though in my view, it's infinitely superior, and quite awesome to read at any age), yet that doesn't discount any group as being lesser. They may argue it at times (because it's a hard fanbase to please), but they all care for the franchise in their own way.
Agreed fully. (Though Next Mutation actually has fans?)

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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by Roland_ELoG » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:07 am

SSJ4 Furanki wrote:Touché, but it would be nice to at least draw the line somewhere for the dub. They seemed to be afraid of alienating old fans, but it makes it a (arbitrary numbers for example purposes) 90% accurate dub rather than 99%-100% accurate. The only reason the Saiyan vs. Say-yan thing is annoying is, let's use a real example. The DBZ for Kinect trailer, people flipped shit because the narrator pronounced "Saiyan" 'wrong'. The irony being that they don't know the real pronunciation apparently. I hate 'carry-okey' (in regular speech I pronounce it correctly but usually give a disclaimer that I'm going to use the more correct one), but yeah, as you said people won't change how they pronounce things either. Bothers me about Kanto too in Pokémon, since it is literally named after the Kanto region of Japan or Raikou in Pokémon as well. At least Death Note's dub pronounced it right (Kanto), haha. But, it seems the you've dealt with the incorrect vs. correct pronunciation thing before too. So, I'm just giving my two cents. It maybe extremely nitpicky in real-life to use the proper Japanese pronunciations for all the commonly used Japanese terms and brands (at least in an American accent), but I still do it.

I've been watching Dragon Ball since '99 when I was 6-ish, but I like the Japanese and English versions. In my opinion (the beauty of opinions is we can agree or disagree and neither of us is wrong since its all perception based), I just think Kai conveys more of the original intent in English than the original Z dub.
Japanese major of five years. Represent. ;)

I think intent is noble, but if the effect of watching it is awkward and doesn't flow well, I'll get fatigued from it. If that makes any sense. I can't watch a full episode of Kai in one sitting, but I could marathon the original show in English or Japanese.

Going forward though, I guess I don't care that much. I don't watch anime in English. The Japanese version is always there if you want to watch it! Might as well make the English script sound a bit nicer, or you end up with Gundam Wing.
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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by 90sDBZ » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:55 am

TheGmGoken wrote:To the people who say dub fans aren't real fans of DB. Please answer this. ENG dub ain't the only dub out there correct(Pretty obvious answer)? Okay now let's talk about some MORE accurate dubs but not 100% accurate. Say dubs that change some things but not the same amount as Toei. Instead of being 100% accurate the dub was 75 - 90% accurate. Ok say the person watched ONLY that dub and had ZERO resources for the JPN audio besides some short Youtube Clips. He or she buys EVERY DB shirt, toy, and poster they can find. Does that mean since they never saw the JPN audio(besides short clips) that they are NOT fans of DB but fans of a different DB? Are they any less of a fan than us? Hell PenguinTruth said early that DBZ is not in his Top ten anime(s). If that's the case then say this guy/girl(based on the scenario above) have DBZ has their Number 3 or 2nd favorite anime. You people who are saying that this person is NOT a Db fan but a fan of a different DB is LESS than a fan than PenguinTruth(Going by if they watched the same anime and the same amount). Please answer this for me.
You raise a good point there about there been lots of different dubs other than the English Z dub.

One thing I'd like to know is what if someone watches the Kai dub? Does that make them a "true fan" in the Official Almighty Unshakable Undebatable Be all End all Book of Anime Fandom aka Penguintruth's mind? Or what if someone watches and enjoys the Funi Kai dub but still prefers their Z dub? Does that make them half a fan? :think:

And also can fans of the Japanese Dragonball anime really be considered 100% true fans of Toriyama's Dragonball if they haven't read one page of Toriyama's own work? Can fans who are mislead by the anime into believing that Goku is stronger than Gohan and that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and thus end up making these claims in a powerlevel debate really be considered true fans? Or what about people who've read the manga but only in English? Are they lesser fans for not reading the Author's own actual writing?

Also I have question to those of you who watch and prefer the Japanese version. Have you been issued the official certificate of "True fan" from Toriyama himself and will that certificate be revoked if you suddenly decide you prefer the dub?

In all seriousness all of this "true fan" stuff is nonsense. In Penguintruth's mind you'll never be a fan if you don't like his Dragonball. There's no point in banging our heads against a brick wall trying to argue because in actual reality each and every one of us are Dragonball fans simply because the show is called Dragonball and we dedicate our time and wallets to it.

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Re: Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:09 am

90sDBZ wrote:One thing I'd like to know is what if someone watches the Kai dub? Does that make them a "true fan" in the Official Almighty Unshakable Undebatable Be all End all Book of Anime Fandom aka Penguintruth's mind? Or what if someone watches and enjoys the Funi Kai dub but still prefers their Z dub? Does that make them half a fan? :think:
Being incredibly patronizing and sarcastic in response to someone else's viewpoint isn't going to get you anywhere in a discussion. I know I don't have any interest in responding to that point.
90sDBZ wrote:And also can fans of the Japanese Dragonball anime really be considered 100% true fans of Toriyama's Dragonball if they haven't read one page of Toriyama's own work? Can fans who are mislead by the anime into believing that Goku is stronger than Gohan and that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and thus end up making these claims in a powerlevel debate really be considered true fans? Or what about people who've read the manga but only in English? Are they lesser fans for not reading the Author's own actual writing?
Browse a few other forums and see the absolute vitriol that gets spewed for even attempting to take something stated in the anime over the manga. Yes. Those viewpoints and attitudes are out there.
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