Seriously, why was the Westwood Dub so bad?

[TVfan721]

I was re-watching old Android and Buu Saga clips on YT from the old Westwood Ocean Dub and what a terrible, terrible dub. The Mega Man music is hilarious and I can't believe the people in charge had no issue releasing this dub the way it was. What I really don't understand though is why the voice acting was so off. The Ocean Cast did an amazing job with Funimation but here, they sounded almost like they were acting the first time. Why is that? What went on behind the scenes and how on Earth was this terrible dub even allowed to be released the way it was? How come no one in power said "Hey guys, maybe this is a really bad idea taking music from an old Mega Man cartoon and putting in a completely different show" Just pathetic all around.

[Metalwario64]

In a nutshell: it was rushed, had terrible directing, and kept changing directors.

[TVfan721]

But the Ocean Cast were all top notch actors, shouldn't they have been able to still perform at a quality level despite terrible directing? I guess I don't understand much about voice directing, if someone can fill me in on that, please do.

[TheGmGoken]

It was rushed and the actors gave rushed performances. I heard that they could't do more than one take. But that might be a rumor or something. I do know it was rushed. Basically when Voice acting if you can't take your time and keep getting different direction for the voice. You're going to suck.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Basically when Voice acting if you can't take your time and keep getting different direction for the voice. You're going to suck.

Different direction apparently was a problem. Nobody's been able to provide me a link to this interview, so it may not be true...however, an (unconfirmed) interview with Scott McNeil said that they went through something like eight directors throughout their run. If you really want to screw an actor up, that's an easy way to do it. Directors are in charge of explaining the emotional context of a scene to the actors, because the actor will not have seen the script ahead of their coming into the booth. So, if you bring in one guy who tells him that it's like this, then bring in another guy who tells him it's like that, then bring in another guy who says both of them were wrong, wash, rinse, repeat........it'd be amazing if good performances came out of that.

[ErikB]

Basically when Voice acting if you can't take your time and keep getting different direction for the voice. You're going to suck.

Different direction apparently was a problem. Nobody's been able to provide me a link to this interview, so it may not be true...however, an (unconfirmed) interview with Scott McNeil said that they went through something like eight directors throughout their run. If you really want to screw an actor up, that's an easy way to do it. Directors are in charge of explaining the emotional context of a scene to the actors, because the actor will not have seen the script ahead of their coming into the booth. So, if you bring in one guy who tells him that it's like this, then bring in another guy who tells him it's like that, then bring in another guy who says both of them were wrong, wash, rinse, repeat........it'd be amazing if good performances came out of that.

This is what I've heard/read as well.
It's somewhat of a shame because Ocean does have some phenomenal talent on their roster. Hell, even look at the FUNi/Ocean dub days and some of the same actors are there giving some pretty admirable performances (some of the others...not so much). For the fact that Ocean won't be so limited with their supposedly imminent Kai dub, I'm actually pretty excited for that. I'll probably still favour FUNimation but Ocean, unhindered by tight schedules and bad direction, could do some fantastic work with the show.

Hmm...I do live in Vancouver; if I run into Scott McNeil again and actually realize who he is this time ( ), I'll ask him about it.

[NitroEX]

Terrible? The big green dub is terrible, the westwood dub is not.

I get that the majority of Americans are slowly discovering it in recent years and are a bit taken back by how different it sounds but I honestly think posts like this are gross exaggerations especially when you look back on how bad some of the performances were in the in house Funi dub. IMO there are some good performances in the westwood dub but of course we don't talk about that, let's talk about the megaman music which funny enough no one cared about when the show aired on TV.

[Metalwario64]

Terrible? The big green dub is terrible, the westwood dub is not.

Outside of a few performances (Drummond was better than Sabat until the Ultimate Uncut dub at least), I think it's below FUNimation's dub of those episodes. Lot's of really stiff, or outright crazy performances (Piccolo vs. 17 anybody?), and it was rushed even more than FUNi's dub was. You know it's bad when Kelamis sucks terribly, since he was really good in the first 3 movies and decent in the Saban era dub.

For what it's worth, I think the performances in the FUNimation-Ocean dub of the first two arcs is superior to FUNimation's in-house dub until around the Cell arc.

[NitroEX]

Lot's of really stiff, or outright crazy performances (Piccolo vs. 17 anybody?)

Not sure what you mean by crazy performances (I mean wasn't DBZ a pretty crazy show anyway?) but I never had a problem with McNeil's power up scream in the 17 fight. Out of all the dubbed versions I've seen of that fight he went above and beyond with the screams which most actors simply wouldn't have bothered with so I personally commend him for what he did. A criticism I can understand is that maybe the effects were lacking such as reverb on the screams but that's not the fault of the actors. And for anyone who thinks it's out of character McNeil always had demonic screams as Piccolo (Dead Zone anyone?)

Anyway, the dub did get a few things wrong but I think it did a number of things right however it's all personal preference at the end of the day. For example I find that the comedic scenes for the most part work better in the westwood version with the additional sound effects. It probably also has something to do with Ocean actors working more with comedy kids shows. I can always laugh at Don Brown's performance as King Kai and Mr Satan/Hercule but Chris Rager and Sean Schemmel's versions don't get a chuckle out of me.

[90sDBZ]

Terrible? The big green dub is terrible, the westwood dub is not.

I get that the majority of Americans are slowly discovering it in recent years and are a bit taken back by how different it sounds but I honestly think posts like this are gross exaggerations especially when you look back on how bad some of the performances were in the in house Funi dub. IMO there are some good performances in the westwood dub but of course we don't talk about that, let's talk about the megaman music which funny enough no one cared about when the show aired on TV.

Well I can't speak for others but I grew up with the Westwood dub and I hate it with a passion. It pretty much ruined the 2nd half of DBZ for me. I was loving DBZ when it was the Saban dub and the Funi inhouse dub but once it switched to the Westwood dub it was just awful. The Big Green dub is worse I agree but that's like having to choose between eating turd or vomit. The thing is that even if the performances had been good it still would have been very difficult to enjoy because of the awful music. The music is just so bad that I can't help but be distracted by how awful it is and it really takes me out of the show. Going from Faulconer to Megaman music was truly painful for me.

The Westwood dub is the reason I'm glad the UK got Funi Kai instead of Ocean. There's no need for us to be subjected to that trash again. Perhaps Ocean Kai will turn out to be good wherever it airs but that's not something I wanted to risk when I first heard Kai was airing in the UK. To be honest it's hard to feel positive about Ocean Kai after living through the trainwreck that was the Westwood Z dub. Yes there were some decent performances like Scott Mcneil as Piccolo and Brad Swaile as Teen Gohan and Brian Drummond(at times) but apart from that everything was either mediocre or terrible. In the Fusion and Kid Buu sagas they finally improved the music a lot but that was just too little too late.

[Blade]

The quality of both the acting performances and the dub on the whole increased dramatically towards the end of Z, as essentially for the first time during the entire production, the people involved were given delivery deadlines that allowed for some quality control.

[NitroEX]

Well I can't speak for others but I grew up with the Westwood dub and I hate it with a passion. It pretty much ruined the 2nd half of DBZ for me. I was loving DBZ when it was the Saban dub and the Funi inhouse dub but once it switched to the Westwood dub it was just awful. The Big Green dub is worse I agree but that's like having to choose between eating turd or vomit. The thing is that even if the performances had been good it still would have been very difficult to enjoy because of the awful music. The music is just so bad that I can't help but be distracted by how awful it is and it really takes me out of the show. Going from Faulconer to Megaman music was truly painful for me.

The Westwood dub is the reason I'm glad the UK got Funi Kai instead of Ocean. There's no need for us to be subjected to that trash again. Perhaps Ocean Kai will turn out to be good wherever it airs but that's not something I wanted to risk when I first heard Kai was airing in the UK. To be honest it's hard to feel positive about Ocean Kai after living through the trainwreck that was the Westwood Z dub. Yes there were some decent performances like Scott Mcneil as Piccolo and Brad Swaile as Teen Gohan and Brian Drummond(at times) but apart from that everything was either mediocre or terrible. In the Fusion and Kid Buu sagas they finally improved the music a lot but that was just too little too late.

You're entitled to your opinion but at the end of the day I never met one person like you in real life who thought the Ocean acting was "trash" or that the music was "truly painful". It's often the small minority that is the loudest online and I think that's the case here. As for Americans it's obvious to me why they dislike it and I don't blame them because it's not what was shown in their country. What gets me annoyed though is when you can't have a critical discussion about the Ocean dub without the first comment being something malicious and harping on about the music. I don't like the Faulconer score but I don't feel the need to inject my opinion on it in every discussion about the in house Funi dub.

[90sDBZ]

Well I can't speak for others but I grew up with the Westwood dub and I hate it with a passion. It pretty much ruined the 2nd half of DBZ for me. I was loving DBZ when it was the Saban dub and the Funi inhouse dub but once it switched to the Westwood dub it was just awful. The Big Green dub is worse I agree but that's like having to choose between eating turd or vomit. The thing is that even if the performances had been good it still would have been very difficult to enjoy because of the awful music. The music is just so bad that I can't help but be distracted by how awful it is and it really takes me out of the show. Going from Faulconer to Megaman music was truly painful for me.

The Westwood dub is the reason I'm glad the UK got Funi Kai instead of Ocean. There's no need for us to be subjected to that trash again. Perhaps Ocean Kai will turn out to be good wherever it airs but that's not something I wanted to risk when I first heard Kai was airing in the UK. To be honest it's hard to feel positive about Ocean Kai after living through the trainwreck that was the Westwood Z dub. Yes there were some decent performances like Scott Mcneil as Piccolo and Brad Swaile as Teen Gohan and Brian Drummond(at times) but apart from that everything was either mediocre or terrible. In the Fusion and Kid Buu sagas they finally improved the music a lot but that was just too little too late.

You're entitled to your opinion but at the end of the day I never met one person like you in real life who thought the Ocean acting was "trash" or that the music was "truly painful". It's often the small minority that is the loudest online and I think that's the case here. As for Americans it's obvious to me why they dislike it and I don't blame them because it's not what was shown in their country. What gets me annoyed though is when you can't have a critical discussion about the Ocean dub without the first comment being something malicious and harping on about the music. I don't like the Faulconer score but I don't feel the need to inject my opinion on it in every discussion about the in house Funi dub.

Well if we're talking about the majority of people or the average fan then most don't even seem to realise there was ever a change of dub at all. A lot don't even know it was originally in Japanese. As crazy as it sounds I've seen a lot of people who think the UK got Ocean for the entire series and actually think the Funi dub Ginyu-Trunks sagas were in Ocean dub. They actually can't tell the difference and bash the "American dub" without realising that a lot of the UK Broadcast was the American dub.

Anyway for what it's worth I can't deny that DBZ continued to be successful in the UK even when it switched to Westwood dub and my opinion of it will never change that. To be fair I think the average fan will accept anything that isn't laughably appalling to the extent of the Big Green dub. I think the only times that a dub change actually had a huge impact on the popularity of Dragonball were the Big Green dubs of the movies and to an extent the Blue Water dubs of DB and GT. Funi and Ocean do generally sound somewhat alike so both are usually accepted by the average fan regardless of what they saw first.

But I do get why Americans go on about the Megaman score during discussions. If the music was simply underwhelming or forgettable then it would be easier to look past. But to me personally it just sounds so awful that I'm forced to turn my attention to it and mention it during discussions. Music is just as important as the performances. It is the heart and soul of the show and if it sounds terrible then that prevents me from enjoying the show on any level. I know there are people who are able to enjoy it regardless of the music so more power to them. Despite preferring Funi I actually really wanted to like the Westwood dub back when it aired as it was meant to be an epic return of the original English cast. But I simply couldn't enjoy it even after repeated attempts which is a shame really.

[UltimateHammerBro]

To be fair, I've watched many clips of the Westwood Dub and I don't think that it's bad at all. Just rushed.
I don't think the music is that bad either. Does it change the show completely? Yes it does. But then again, doesn't Faulconer's music do it too?

The music, as 90sDBZ says, is the heart and soul of the show, and even though many people don't want to recognise it and get all mad when they're told, the original soundtrack will always be Kikuchi's. I love Faulconer's music, but not as a soundtrack for DBZ. To me, it makes it look like a "non-stop action, hardcore show", which it really isn't.

[90sDBZ]

To be fair, I've watched many clips of the Westwood Dub and I don't think that it's bad at all. Just rushed.
I don't think the music is that bad either. Does it change the show completely? Yes it does. But then again, doesn't Faulconer's music do it too?

The music, as 90sDBZ says, is the heart and soul of the show, and even though many people don't want to recognise it and get all mad when they're told, the original soundtrack will always be Kikuchi's. I love Faulconer's music, but not as a soundtrack for DBZ. To me, it makes it look like a "non-stop action, hardcore show", which it really isn't.

To be honest it's hard to get an idea of how bad it really is just from watching Youtube clips. When you watch every episode on TV with the same handful of tracks playing in every situation on every single episode all the way from the Android saga to the Majin buu saga it gets really grating on the ears. More so than even the Kikuchi placement in Kai. It makes that look well-placed by comparison. A lot of the Westwood dub music sounds like it's trying too hard to be dramatic and comes off as laughable. It literally drains every scene of all emotion as you've heard every track play throughout so many episodes.

Also what you said about Faulconer also changing the show. The difference between that and the Megaman music is that Team Faulconer actually successfully pulled off the whole action-show feel that Funi wanted, whether people agree with that change or not. The Westwood score was going for the same thing more or less except that it lacked the passion, emotion, effort, variety and quality of the Faulconer score. The Westwood score was literally just recycled music thrown together and was extremely limited in its variety. It all felt like filler. The Faulconer score was at least made for DBZ with an artistic vision in mind. The Westwood score had no artistic vision whatsoever.

[Metalwario64]

A criticism I can understand is that maybe the effects were lacking such as reverb on the screams but that's not the fault of the actors. And for anyone who thinks it's out of character McNeil always had demonic screams as Piccolo (Dead Zone anyone?)

I meant more along the lines of his battle cries where he made sounds like "ADDIDIDDIDIDADADADDIDIDIDDIDI". I have qualms with how FUNimation handled fight noises around that period too though "UGH URGH YAH UNGHGHH", but McNeil was really bad in that fight.

[Roland_ELoG]

I've seen a scattering of clips from the tail end of the series from Westwood (was that Ocean Group voices produced by Westwood?).

Maybe the fault is the direction, or maybe it's the editing. In scenes where Kirby Morrow has to scream at the top of his lungs for several solid seconds, you can hear the cuts/transitions between different takes stitched together.

The Westwood one also had replacement sound effects sometimes didn't it?

[Gonstead]

The Westwood one also had replacement sound effects sometimes didn't it?

It pretty much replaced about 99% of the normal sound effects with more cartoony sound effects.

If done RIGHT, it's actually pretty nice (Ocean Dub of World's Strongest for example simply placed new SFX over the old SFX) but to over-do it like the Westwood dub is bad.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Seriously, why was the Westwood Dub so bad?

Because someone other Masako Nozawa voiced Goku?

[penguintruth]

Let's be fair. It's not as though Funimation's in house dub was notably preferable. And let's go further, it's not that the Ocean-dubbed episodes before it were great, either.

That being said, I'll take Kelamis, McNeil, and Henderson over Schemmel, Sabat, and Nadolny most any day of the week. Even in the Westwood days (though Henderson was replaced by Michaels and Kelamis lost a few steps). I also quite enjoy Brad Swaile as the older Gohan,

It's not exactly a talent parade regardless. In either cast there are way more failures than successes. The worst thing about the Westwood dub? Too much Klassen. FFS, whoever thought to have him be Roshi must have been suffering from brain parasites at the time.