Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

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Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:30 pm

It's an unusual but increasingly common stance that I hear among fans in some of the other places I visit. I've seen it here on occasion too, and while it doesn't necessarily jive with me (given that the Toriyama-influenced Jump special was my favorite among all the movies), I think that it's entirely possible to make a good discussion about what Battle of Gods could have been under different circumstances.

The script, which (by my understanding) was originally written to be more dramatic, was tweaked by Toriyama during production to be a lighter, less consequential fluff piece. Is the movie's tone just right for you, or did you want something darker and more serious?

Discuss.


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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:37 pm

Yes and no in my opinion.

I love his design of Beers and prefer his version of SSJG over what was intended (something really muscular and with a cape or cloak).

I dont like some of the changes to the plot. I would have liked Beers to be some god that made races evil. I hate SSJG itself and the whole godly Ki thing, but love the concept of the 12 universes as it gives tons of stuff to work with in the future.

To sum up, its a 50/50 for me.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Bullza » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:43 pm

If he did ruin it I'd still probably take what was his idea than someone elses probably better idea.

I did like Battle of Gods but it did seem as though it was just a chnace to have a big reunion of the characters. There was no need to bring back Pilaf and co, there was too much humour and Dragon Ball's gag humour was never really that funny.

DBZ was better when it was more dramatic and serious rather than being goofy. I don't mind it being that way with Battle of Gods but if he does another movie I'd want it to be much more serious and not have all the characters in there just for the sake of it.

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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:48 pm

Absolutely not. If it werent for Toriyama, Battle of Gods would just be another movie. The average run time would just be doubled.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by MCDaveG » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:50 pm

Only thing I missed in this movie was Rubber Duck's cameo.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:53 pm

I don't necessarily think so. While I would like a little more drama I don't think we've reached the point where the more comedic fluff has become overbearing. I would say what hurt Battle of Gods most was Toei's small budget and lack of talent. Toei aside a average-level episode director to a movie with next to no budget. From a scripting point of view Battle of Gods worked.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Chuquita » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:59 pm

Nope. I really enjoyed the Toriyama-influence in the script and character designs (ssjg Goku's so cute X3 ). What I know of the original script reminded me too much of the Garlic Jr filler arc (only Goku and Vegeta would be there this time).

If anything dampened BOG, it was Toei's cheap budget. I know I've mentioned it before, but that CGI Capsule Corp building looks awful, as did much of the CGI work. What it needed was a bigger animation budget and for that budget to be used appropriately. Also a richer color pallet (like Strong World) would've been nice.


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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:15 pm

KentalSSJ6 wrote:Yes and no in my opinion.

I love his design of Bills and prefer his version of SSJG over what was intended (something really muscular and with a cape or cloak).

I dont like some of the changes to the plot. I would have liked Bills to be some god that made races evil. I hate SSJG itself and the whole godly Ki thing, but love the concept of the 12 universes as it gives tons of stuff to work with in the future.

To sum up, its a 50/50 for me.
I agree. I would like a more dramatic but I enjoyed the funny scenes much more than the serious scenes in BoG anyways. So that's a win-win for me. I hated Birsu(Seeing as he's just Goku with angry issues. Reminds me of Boo as well) and that SSG idea was terrible IMO. However the original SSG sounded like a Fan-made form to be honest. I also love the 12 universe idea. I hate the "rumor" plot(Don't know if it's true) that Birsu turned the Saiyans evil. Godly ki been around since Boo Arc. BoG just expanded on it. So Idc about that really. Though I hate BoG with a passion. I'll rather Toriyama's changes than what Toei had planned. Which leads me to this quote.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Absolutely not. If it werent for Toriyama, Battle of Gods would just be another movie. The average run time would just be doubled.
THIS SO FUCKING MUCH! I picture the movie as similar as Wrath of Dragon or Bojack. It would be Goku wanking and no Vegeta rage most likely. We would have a SSJ Gohan instead of Drunk Gohan. No Dragonball style comedy. LIZARD Birsu(WHAT THE FUCK!?).
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:22 am

AT helping out the movie made BOG the best DBZ film in a long time. The past DBZ movies were just rehash of old ideas or having Goku win in a one sided battle.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:26 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:AT helping out the movie made BOG the best DBZ film in a long time. The past DBZ movies were just rehash of old ideas or having Goku win in a one sided battle.
What was Wrath of Dragon, Broly movie 1, Broly movie 3, and Fusion Reborn was based on? The other ones are easy. But I can't see what these 4 was based off of.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:35 am

Id say Goku did the least amount of work in Cooler's Revenge.

Yeah he killed the main villain but he was incapacitated for nearly the whole movie and Piccolo killed all 3 of Cooler's henchmen.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:51 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:AT helping out the movie made BOG the best DBZ film in a long time. The past DBZ movies were just rehash of old ideas or having Goku win in a one sided battle.
What was Wrath of Dragon, Broly movie 1, Broly movie 3, and Fusion Reborn was based on? The other ones are easy. But I can't see what these 4 was based off of.
Movie 12 and 13 had some nice ideas. With Broli, he was just another surviving saiyan which we seen before and Bio Broli was Broli back again for the third time.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by bleed0range » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:24 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:AT helping out the movie made BOG the best DBZ film in a long time. The past DBZ movies were just rehash of old ideas or having Goku win in a one sided battle.
What was Wrath of Dragon, Broly movie 1, Broly movie 3, and Fusion Reborn was based on? The other ones are easy. But I can't see what these 4 was based off of.
Movie 12 is borrowing boo's form changes from boo saga... fat and stupid then sleek and evil. It's also borrowing crom gotenks antics with fat gogeta and fusion. Wrath rehashes the bibidi unlocking boo idea and even copies bibidis general design scheme... short and ugly wizard needs to release an evil presence on the world. Broly movie 1 and 3 are fairly original however.

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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by penguintruth » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:35 am

"Hey Mr. Toriyama, can we get something from you for this new DBZ movie we're working on?"

"Uh sure... here we go... gimme a sec... wait... here. Just a few things I jotted down, here's a sketch of the villain. Have fun."

And thus the movie was born.

Did he ruin it? Well, that assumes the movie is bad. I liked it.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Vijay » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:33 am

Haha. I liked how PenguinTruth explained! :)

To be honest though, its TOEI that ruined BoG.

Right from the sparse detail in the animation to the thin, almost non-existant plot: You name it. TOEI ruined.

No hard-feelings to BoG fans, but I recently watched DBZ Movie 12 : Fusion Reborn.

That movie alone owns TOEI's every latest crap : Plan to Eradicate the Saiyan, BoG, Yo! Son Goku returns! etc.

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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Big Momma » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:41 am

I loved the movie as it turned out, but I wouldn't have minded a little bit more drama. I definitely wouldn't say Toriyama ruined it, though.

I'm so glad he changed the SSG look from what it was going to be...
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by kei17 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:45 am

From what I heard about the original script written by Watanabe, I think Toriyama drastically improved it. Who wants to see a Dark Knight rip-off with DBZ characters? It would have been a big pile of shit considering most of the movies written by Watanabe have been criticized for their terrible stories.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Kakarot88 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:27 pm

To me the original script sounded cool but not like Dragon Ball Z. When I think of Dragon Ball Z I think of a sunny day with an epic fight not dark and brooding with rain and undertones of evil being infected in people which is where the original script sounded like it was headed...that stuff is more suited for Batman.
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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Saago » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:06 pm

When I saw Battle of Gods, I was genuinely perplexed. If I had had to guess how the movie, the first Dragon Ball Z theatrical movie in almost two decades, would be, that would probably have been the last thing I would have imagined. Then I thought how interesting it was for a Dragon Ball movie, of all franchises, to go against every single expectation the audience might have. Even before reading the recent interviews with Toriyama, in which he explains how he basically rewrote the whole movie (all we knew, originally, was that he was involved in some way), I knew that he was deeply involved.

The weird pace, the lack of dramatic tension, the anticlimatic feel... Basically everything people have criticized as being "strange", it all seemed obviously deliberate to me, and the last interviews with Toriyama lead me to think that I wasn't wrong. Battle of Gods is exactly the same as the rest of the Dragon Ball Z movies... only it is exactly the opposite. The movie is basically a deconstruction of the whole franchise in general and the rest of the movies in particular. This, certainly, doesn't make it a good (or bad) movie per se, but I do think it is an incredibly interesting approach. I've read countless people complaining, for instance, that the way Super Saiyan God is reached is completely anticlimatic and exactly the opposite of what a Super Saiyan transformation should be, or that Beerus' presence is not quite as threatening or urging as one would expect... and that's exactly the point. That's the whole point of the movie.

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Re: Did Toriyama "ruin" Battle of Gods?

Post by Big Momma » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:08 pm

Saago wrote:... and that's exactly the point. That's the whole point of the movie.
Thank you. That's very well said.
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