What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencies?

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What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencies?

Post by Gogeta 00 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:10 am

I really shouldn't be browsing forums right now with all of this work I have to do, but I had a topic that I thought might be worth discussing so here goes.

We know that Toei's filler causes many inconsistencies throughout the series. Obviously they could not help it that the author later chose to make an addition to his story that made something said in the filler inconsistent but surely they could have taken some precautions to make every effort possible to avoid any inconsistencies. So my question is what sorts of things could Toei have done to be more careful when they made their filler scenes?

The most obvious suggestion that I can think of is that they should have tried to avoid making any actual explanations for any of the things that happen in the Dragon Ball universe. They should have probably kept in mind that the author might want to provide an explanation for that thing later. Perhaps the best example is the episode in the original Dragon Ball where Kame Sennin explains the origin of the Dragon Balls. The origin of the objects that the series is named after is a pretty big plot point so maybe someone ought to have stopped and said, "Hey wait guys, isn't this something that Toriyama is probably going to explain at some point?".

Anyhow, it is obvious that filler couldn't really be avoided entirely, but what sorts of things do you guys think that Toei could have avoided to prevent their filler from resulting in inconsistencies down the road? Also as a second question, what sorts of things do you guys think Toei could have done to make their filler better in general?
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Akumaito Beam » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:43 am

As you mentioned I feel like the scale of what they chose to expand upon was just too big. Concepts like the origin of the balls or how Planet Vegeta was destroyed is just way too risky of a gamble. Then again even things as simple as taking the bomb out of Eight-Man ended up being a kerfuffle so I suppose it just may be unavoidable. I guess if you're going to try to explain anything the original author hasn't it's a good idea to leave it as open as possible so it's possible to hand wave it away. Then again something as simple as One Piece's Zoro cutting a steel chain with this swords became an issue in a later arc. I'm certain nobody writing the filer scripts saw that one coming. The only surefire way might be to run the scripts past the author but I can see that not working out for both time and monetary reasons.

As for making the filler better I always thought it would be smarter just to create filler arcs in lulls of action or the time gaps. Don't bog down the canon material with it.

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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by El Diabeetus » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:47 am

They could've taken breaks between arcs or waited later to animate the material. I wish Naruto, One Piece and even Bleach to an extent had (or get) Kai versions just so it can get more down to business. But, unlike Kai for DB, I would hope it gets treated with more respect than DB got from Toei (although I still love Kai due to the quicker pace and improved dub).

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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:03 am

SSJ4 Furanki wrote:They could've taken breaks between arcs or waited later to animate the material. I wish Naruto, One Piece and even Bleach to an extent had (or get) Kai versions just so it can get more down to business. But, unlike Kai for DB, I would hope it gets treated with more respect than DB got from Toei (although I still love Kai due to the quicker pace and improved dub).
I've been saying that for a while. Naruto and Bleach need Kai versions, especially Bleach which has the audacity to fuse filler and non filler content together with one such example being Renji VS the Arrancar, Yylfordt Granz (also a rather heavily censored episode compared to the manga).
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:11 am

To avoid inconsistencies all Toei had to do was alter the material of the comic to fit what their original storylines had previously established. There's no reason Doctor Gero couldn't have mentioned working with Doctor Frappe in the early Artificial Humans arc. Muten Roushi spent a good portion of episode #128 explaining to Maron the backstory with the Red Ribbon Army so it's not like there wasn't any room for recapping.

Filler arcs is one of the things Dragon Ball did pretty darn well. Bleach did one even better and created new casts and backstories to explore over longer periods, essentially adapting the same formulas used in the comic storylines with a few new twists.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Logan » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:14 pm

Do we know for sure that Toriyama had no involvement with the filler? I seem to recall reading somewhere that Yamucha's baseball career was an idea of his, despite its absence from the manga.

To tell you the truth I really enjoy the filler. At least for the Vegeta saga, anyway. I love the Arlia episode.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Looneygamemaster » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:28 pm

To tell you the truth I really enjoy the filler. At least for the Vegeta saga, anyway. I love the Arlia episode.
I liked some of the filler in the Saiyan arc too, because they at least tried to be important. But the Arlia episode is a big exception. It's a whole episode of what Toei does to hype up the villain--show them wreaking havoc. The problem is that almost every time, you can see the apathy. They know this isn't important, and they're not even going to pretend that they care about the people being killed. That's both boring and kind of uncomfortable.

Ahem. Anyway, Toei could have dodged inconsistencies the same way they could have fixed the pacing: show just a little care. But that's in short supply in DBZ, and is the main cause of its flaws.

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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Logan » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:01 pm

I must be the only person on this board that doesn't hate Toei. :lol:

Something could've been done to address the first story behind Planet Vegeta's destruction. Even something as simple as a throwaway line would've sufficed. Maybe retcon both stories into one.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by SaiyamanMS » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:48 pm

Logan wrote:Something could've been done to address the first story behind Planet Vegeta's destruction. Even something as simple as a throwaway line would've sufficed. Maybe retcon both stories into one.
It's been a little while since I watched it, but while it isn't exactly addressed directly, didn't Kaio make it pretty clear that he didn't want Goku knowing about Freeza on the way to Namek?

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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Gogeta 00 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:52 pm

JulieYBM wrote:To avoid inconsistencies all Toei had to do was alter the material of the comic to fit what their original storylines had previously established. There's no reason Doctor Gero couldn't have mentioned working with Doctor Frappe in the early Artificial Humans arc. Muten Roushi spent a good portion of episode #128 explaining to Maron the backstory with the Red Ribbon Army so it's not like there wasn't any room for recapping.

Filler arcs is one of the things Dragon Ball did pretty darn well. Bleach did one even better and created new casts and backstories to explore over longer periods, essentially adapting the same formulas used in the comic storylines with a few new twists.
This is a really great point that I never considered before. I wonder why they never thought to do this? I guess because it is really easy to forget about some miniscule filler character from much earlier in the series and probably didn't even realize that it caused an inconsistency. But you would think that with the larger issues in the series (origin of the Dragon Balls, destruction of Vegeta etc.) someone should have thought to try and cover up the inconsistencies.

For the record I don't hate filler at all. For the most part I like it; although a lot of it can be pretty painful (particularly every piece of filler in the Freeza and Namek arcs, the filler is one of the reasons why that is my least favourite arc of the Z portion of the series). The inconsistencies that really bother me are the ones that take place after something in the original story was established. Like Cell and co. having their bodies in the afterlife.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:11 pm

Naruto Shippuuden did just what I suggested, only intentionally. At the beginning of Naruto Shippuuden the Akatsuki had yet to seal the Six-Tails within the Gedou Madou statue. At this time in the comic the Six-Tails is already absorbed and the host, Utakata, is dead as a result. Years later for episodes #144-151 Utakata met Naruto in an original story arc. Both were unaware that the other was a Jinchuuriki, but the story arc tied into the next comic arc by exploring the bond between a student and teacher. Utakata, a reluctant teacher to Hotaru, learned the joys of being a master while also dealing with the personal conflict of being betrayed by his master. At the end of the arc Pain captures and seals the Six-Tails, killing Utakata as a result, to match the comic's Gedou Mazou. Recently, in episode #324 Utakata is revived through the Edo Tensei technique and Naruto recognizes him. Obviously the two never met in the comic chapters this episode adapted but in the TV series they did so dialogue is altered accordingly. When episode #151 aired the actual fight between Utakata and Pain was not shown, there was simply a cutaway to Utakata unconscious and being dragged off. Episode #324 added a cool fight scene, essentially bringing us full circle.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Logan » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:00 pm

SaiyamanMS wrote:It's been a little while since I watched it, but while it isn't exactly addressed directly, didn't Kaio make it pretty clear that he didn't want Goku knowing about Freeza on the way to Namek?
Not that I recall. But if that is the case, then I guess there's no open inconsistency.

Even though Movie 1 isn't part of the series per se, I think that something could've been done with regards to the Turtle Hermit, Bulma, Kuririn, and Piccolo knowing about Gohan before the series starts. I had an idea (guess you could say that it's my fanon) that Kami erased select bits of the others' memory per request by Goku to protect Gohan.

Another thing that just sprung to mind was the inconsistency with characters capable of surviving in space. If I remember correctly, Freeza gloats over being able to live in a vacuum, unlike a Saiyan like Goku. Obviously there are numerous instances where Goku/Saiyans are shown being perfectly fine off-planet. Perhaps it's a learned ability?
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Puto » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:29 am

The actual wording Freeza uses (in the Japanese original anyway) is that while he can survive in a vacuum, he doesn't know if a Saiyan could. Of course, the dub throws that out the window by flat out saying 'I can breathe in space and you can't'.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:04 pm

I think retconing them is the best idea since they don't have to ever mention them again. I do think Toei should have keep the origin story of Planet Vegeta the same seeing that they change it in GT. King Kai said that the Saiyans and Tsufurusian both share the same Planet while Bebi said that the Saiyans came from another Planet and see them coming from the Sky in the flashbacks in GT.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:34 pm

How about Toei writing little notes to Toriyama? I mean, something like:
"Toriyama-san, we're saying that the meteor which destroyed Planet Vegeta was thrown by their Kami"

Then Toriyama could reply:
"Fine"
"Nope, got plans for that"

But if he says "fine" he can't change it later in the manga unless he says:
"Hey guys, insert a line in which Kaio-sama says that the previous story was a complete lie because he didn't want Goku to know about Freeza, because he could try to seek revenge"
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Adamant » Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:29 pm

UltimateHammerBro wrote:How about Toei writing little notes to Toriyama? I mean, something like:
"Toriyama-san, we're saying that the meteor which destroyed Planet Vegeta was thrown by their Kami"

Then Toriyama could reply:
"Fine"
"Nope, got plans for that"

But if he says "fine" he can't change it later in the manga unless he says:
"Hey guys, insert a line in which Kaio-sama says that the previous story was a complete lie because he didn't want Goku to know about Freeza, because he could try to seek revenge"
You know that Toriyama mostly just made shit up as he went along, right? He never "had plans" for all that much.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:17 pm

Adamant wrote:You know that Toriyama mostly just made shit up as he went along, right? He never "had plans" for all that much.
I know, I know. This is precisely why I said it.
He made up the story, but he may have things planned for two or three chapters in advance (I mean, I suppose that he had already thought that Goku would die when he started the battle with Raditz). The "note" thing would have been useful in case he had something planned at any point.
And if he didn't, he could not use that again.

For example, imagine they tell him "hey, we're making an episode where we'll tell how Planet Vegeta blew up" and he's fine with that. Later, when he makes up that Freezer did it, Toei could say "well, you can't put such an important thing in the manga unless you give us a good reason to keep it in the anime". That would require Toriyama to be better supervised by Toei.
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:26 pm

Logan wrote:Another thing that just sprung to mind was the inconsistency with characters capable of surviving in space. If I remember correctly, Freeza gloats over being able to live in a vacuum, unlike a Saiyan like Goku. Obviously there are numerous instances where Goku/Saiyans are shown being perfectly fine off-planet. Perhaps it's a learned ability?
We've seen Goku & Bardock breathing in the stratosphere of Earth & Vegeta, but not in the vacuum of space. Toriyama also said that Saiyans can breath in the stratosphere because they are aliens, so they can survive in the stratosphere of a planet, but not in the vacuum of space.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by Logan » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:49 pm

Vegeta and Nappa were a good distance away from Arlia when it was destroyed. Far, far from the stratosphere. And I swear I remember an episode in Dragon Ball where he launches himself into space or something along those lines. Ideas, anyone?
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Re: What could Toei have done to avoid filler inconsistencie

Post by TheGmGoken » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:05 pm

Logan wrote:Vegeta and Nappa were a good distance away from Arlia when it was destroyed. Far, far from the stratosphere. And I swear I remember an episode in Dragon Ball where he launches himself into space or something along those lines. Ideas, anyone?
You mean against Mr. Rabbit? When Goku used the pole to put them on the moon which was destroyed by Roshi(YAY! The bunnies is alive!) . Though don't the space pods they have have oxygen? Or Vegeta and Nappa can just not die instantly. OR Toei fucked up.
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