English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

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English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by BurakkuForesuto » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:27 pm

I've noticed a lot of things on that wretched site Youtube, as well as other forums and blogs. Whenever I go on a video on Naruto or Bleach's English dub, people say those dubs are horrible and an abomination. They say how annoying Stephanie Sheh is at Orihime, neglecting the fact that she's probably more so annoying in Japanese, that Naruto's English VA sound like a woman, that he's annoying, that "believe it" is annoying making ad-hominems at her, even without citing the fact that Junko Takeuchi is also not a man, that she is a bit annoying as well. They also don't seem to care that the dubs of those shows are uncut, have an accurate script, with no music replacements. :?

This also happens with Death Note to a smaller extent. However, when DBZ's dubs(Ocean or Funimation in house) do anything wrong, no-one cares. You'll see people praising the shitty Bruce Faulconer "music" or the Levy "music" and to a lesser extent, even the music that was made for different shows like Mega Man and Monster Rancher. You'll see people praising Sean Schemmel, even though he sounded constipated throughout the in house dub, even though he had no experience, even though he admits regularly in interviews that he sucked in the Z dub. You'll see people praise the Ocean Group Gokus, Kelamis and Cornett, even though Cornett sounds so bland and serious as Goku and Kelamis was just a rip off at that in the take over. People praise Kelamis for sounding like Nozawa in the movies, but that is also a red flag. For one, Nozawa isn't that good as Goku either. She sounds forced, unnatural, irritating and Kelamis is just channeling that in English. Secondly, what "works" in Japanese does not work in English. Dubs should never copy the original VO unless they can do it well, like Jamieson Price as Joji Nakata characters or Lia Sargent as Dorothy sounding just like Akiko Yajima in Big O.

None of those guys fits Goku's innocence, compared to Naruto's English VA as Naruto who is near perfect in capturing the tone of the character IMO, but for some strange reason the superhero Gokus are what matter, while the VA who captures Naruto's personality is snubbed. :cry:

This is not even getting into the script, the other VAs, the replacement music, the bad edits, but why do people go up in arms to trash the dubs of Naruto and Bleach, while praising and reviling the DBZ dubs? If it's because of time frame, well DBZ's dub aired in English over 7 years after it aired in Japan and about 5-6 years in France. Naruto's dub only has a 3 year frame and Bleach's dub is a 2 year frame.

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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:31 pm

While you're welcome to your feelings about dubs/adaptations, you're not welcome to disparage other communities here.

Furthermore, you're posting on a website whose global community focuses primarily on the original Japanese version of the franchise. You're mostly preaching to the choir.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by Herms » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:44 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Furthermore, you're posting on a website whose global community focuses primarily on the original Japanese version of the franchise. You're mostly preaching to the choir.
I don't know, these days most of the regular forum-goers here seem to either be out-and-out dub fans or neutral to the dub. People who flat-out refuse to give the Funi dub the time of day are getting comparatively rare. Of course, we're still the ones running the joint, so there's that.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by TheAldella » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:54 pm

I find this interesting as well. Post Chunin Exams dub Naruto is almost up to snuff with today's standards with Kai. They're still doing a spectacular job in terms of acting and scripting, so I don't understand what the deal is with that.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by Blade » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:14 pm

BurakkuForesuto wrote:I've noticed a lot of things on that wretched site Youtube, as well as other forums and blogs. Whenever I go on a video on Naruto or Bleach's English dub, people say those dubs are horrible and an abomination. They say how annoying Stephanie Sheh is at Orihime, neglecting the fact that she's probably more so annoying in Japanese, that Naruto's English VA sound like a woman, that he's annoying, that "believe it" is annoying making ad-hominems at her, even without citing the fact that Junko Takeuchi is also not a man, that she is a bit annoying as well. They also don't seem to care that the dubs of those shows are uncut, have an accurate script, with no music replacements. :?

This also happens with Death Note to a smaller extent. However, when DBZ's dubs(Ocean or Funimation in house) do anything wrong, no-one cares. You'll see people praising the shitty Bruce Faulconer "music" or the Levy "music" and to a lesser extent, even the music that was made for different shows like Mega Man and Monster Rancher. You'll see people praising Sean Schemmel, even though he sounded constipated throughout the in house dub, even though he had no experience, even though he admits regularly in interviews that he sucked in the Z dub. You'll see people praise the Ocean Group Gokus, Kelamis and Cornett, even though Cornett sounds so bland and serious as Goku and Kelamis was just a rip off at that in the take over. People praise Kelamis for sounding like Nozawa in the movies, but that is also a red flag. For one, Nozawa isn't that good as Goku either. She sounds forced, unnatural, irritating and Kelamis is just channeling that in English. Secondly, what "works" in Japanese does not work in English. Dubs should never copy the original VO unless they can do it well, like Jamieson Price as Joji Nakata characters or Lia Sargent as Dorothy sounding just like Akiko Yajima in Big O.

None of those guys fits Goku's innocence, compared to Naruto's English VA as Naruto who is near perfect in capturing the tone of the character IMO, but for some strange reason the superhero Gokus are what matter, while the VA who captures Naruto's personality is snubbed. :cry:

This is not even getting into the script, the other VAs, the replacement music, the bad edits, but why do people go up in arms to trash the dubs of Naruto and Bleach, while praising and reviling the DBZ dubs? If it's because of time frame, well DBZ's dub aired in English over 7 years after it aired in Japan and about 5-6 years in France. Naruto's dub only has a 3 year frame and Bleach's dub is a 2 year frame.
The main reason for this parity, in my experience, is that a lot of fans of Dragonball Z first experienced the Anime via the dub. In many cases, as it was mine, Dragonball Z served as a gateway-drug into Anime fandom in general, and therefore my first experience of the likes of Naruto and One Piece were fansubbed versions of the Japanese original, whereas with Dragonball Z it was the other way around.

It's almost unfair to make a comparison to make between the fan attitudes towards the dub of a show like Dragonball Z, which was widely popular in the Western world and was most likely the first version that a lot of the people who enjoy it experienced, and Naruto - that never caught on North America as it did Japan. Most fans who experience the dub of a show like Naruto were in fact initiated with the Japanese original via the way of fansubs online. By the same token, the majority of the strongest negative opinion towards the dub of Dragonball Z tends to come from the oldest fans of the series who first experienced the Japanese original. See the pattern here?

When people like something, they don't like to see it changed or messed with by the hands of people that they deem to be unworthy or unskilled. Quite often it doesn't matter how objectively good or bad a dub of anime is, certain fans are always going to dislike it anyway - simply because it's different to the format that they know and love.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:51 pm

Herms wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Furthermore, you're posting on a website whose global community focuses primarily on the original Japanese version of the franchise. You're mostly preaching to the choir.
I don't know, these days most of the regular forum-goers here seem to either be out-and-out dub fans or neutral to the dub. People who flat-out refuse to give the Funi dub the time of day are getting comparatively rare. Of course, we're still the ones running the joint, so there's that.
Well, as someone who started lurking (not participating, but lurking) around the Kanzenshuu forums in 2006, I believe I have noticed people softening up on the dub. I have no way of scientifically proving why, but here are my speculations:

-The release of the Dragon Boxes. Part of the hatred towards the dub--not all, but part of it--seemed to stem from FUNimation's marketing emphasis on the dub while simultaneously giving little to no thought for the original Japanese version. It was like their marketing had this tone of, "Pfft, screw the original, this radically changed version is what we know you want to see!" This only encouraged people who hated the dub to hate it even more. Along the same lines, they were also a little dishonest and borderline-condescending in how they marketed the Season Sets, which again had a little bit of that "We know this is what you want" tone. With the release of the Dragon Boxes, it was not only a welcome move from fans of the original Japanese version, but it was also a symbolic way of FUNimation saying that they haven't forgotten the original version--or it fans--and that it does matter. Now that the dub is no longer being shoved down people's throats, people went from loathing the dub to thinking, "Eh well, it's just not my cup of tea."

-The Kai dub. Not just the actual dub itself, but also the behind-the-scenes interviews and thoughts of those involved with it that show they really do care about bringing the original version to life in English, even if they don't always succeed. It became clear that some of those involved with the original DBZ dub were as unhappy about it as fans of the original Japanese version were, which helped to humanize them a bit, rather than them being viewed as mouthpieces for FUNimation's (at times) condescending, "We know the radically altered dub is the version you really want to see"-style marketing. Those who wanted to see a loyal dub finally got one. Not loyal enough for some people, and that's fine, but it was loyal enough for many.

Which is not to say that people who didn't like the dub before suddenly do. In fact, you'll still find plenty of people who will point out the dub's shortcomings. However, it seems to me that the "vile hatred" of all those years ago has gradually switched to...just respectfully preferring the other version.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:18 pm

The original DBZ dub didnt have any irritating voices. Even Freeza's voice was still barable among the rest of the cast. DBZ doesn't feature any "stephanie-sheh" whiny characters or cartoony-squeakers that modern anime seems to be overflooded with. Maybe thats its.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by Shnuki » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:30 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:cartoony-squeakers
Puar.

Yeah, I know, he hardly ever appears after the 23rd tournament, but I don't think I ever heard such an exaggerated squeaky voice before.

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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by baneofdemon22 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:46 pm

Puar is male?

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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by Shnuki » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:51 pm

In the original version, yes. He got his gender swapped in the English dub, though.

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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:56 pm

To be fair, I agree with the title of this topic. Translation mistakes and errors like the ones in the Funi dub would have been bashed if they weren't Funi-made. I know about it: I've seen a million critics to my local dub for mistakes that weren't even half bad as Funi's. But hey, this is the internet we're talking about.

I don't hate the Funi DBZ dub: I just think it's waaaaaaaaaaay overrated by nostalgia. I understand nostalgia pretty well, but I think that I have a non-biased view towards Funi, not having grown with it. On the other hand, I think the Kai dub is spectacular.

And I LOVE Funi when they make a good job. I started watching Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood in Japanese with subs, then I heard a clip of the English dub and switched to English. That's pretty rare to find among non-native English speakers.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:50 pm

I'm not really sure what you're talking about. A lot of people hate the english dub of Dbz. In fact, several of the people on this website are actually very vocal about how much they hate the Z dub.

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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:53 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I'm not really sure what you're talking about. A lot of people hate the english dub of Dbz. In fact, several of the people on this website are actually very vocal about how much they hate the Z dub.
This website, or the community that posts to the forum?

Because, honestly, I can't remember the last time I've gone into a tirade about my feelings on FUNimation's English dubbing of the franchise, because my old-age-apathy far outweighs pretty much anything else. Fairly certain the same goes for the other three dudes, and when it does come up, it's usually just to correct misinformation, totally separate from personal feelings.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by superkakarrot2 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:54 pm

I hate how so many people are okay watching the original Japanese version for most animes but watch DBZ dubbed. It's so hypocritical.

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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:59 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I'm not really sure what you're talking about. A lot of people hate the english dub of Dbz. In fact, several of the people on this website are actually very vocal about how much they hate the Z dub.
This website, or the community that posts to the forum?

Because, honestly, I can't remember the last time I've gone into a tirade about my feelings on FUNimation's English dubbing of the franchise, because my old-age-apathy far outweighs pretty much anything else. Fairly certain the same goes for the other three dudes, and when it does come up, it's usually just to correct misinformation, totally separate from personal feelings.
I was referring to some of the members of the website. There's people like Penguintruth for example that do a lot of dub bashing around here, which is perfectly fine since they are entitled to their opinion and I think they do sometimes have a point, but it goes to show that the english dubs of Z have their fair share of haters.

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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:08 pm

The person you're talking about is not a member of this website. They are an individual that happens to post on this website's forum along with lots of other forums, responds to lots of other podcasts, etc.

There are only four staff members of this website. I think that needs to be a very clear distinction.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:08 pm

VegettoEX wrote:The person you're talking about is not a member of this website. They are an individual that happens to post on this website's forum along with lots of other forums, responds to lots of other podcasts, etc.

There are only four staff members of this website. I think that needs to be a very clear distinction.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:09 pm

superkakarrot2 wrote:I hate how so many people are okay watching the original Japanese version for most animes but watch DBZ dubbed. It's so hypocritical.
I don't think that's hypocritical. One can prefer watching certain shows dubbed and others subtitled. What I find hypocritical is when people say "anime should, and must, be watched in Japanese because blah blah blah" and then start talking about "how DBZ in Japanese is crap, Goku sounds like a girl, the music sucks, the English version is over 9000 times better !!!!1"

That's hypocritical to me.
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by linkdude20002001 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:26 pm

I think that's what superkakarrot2 was trying to say too. But I could be wrong.

Really, the thing I hate most about the fandom of Japanese comics and anime is exactly this. I don't even know how to articulate just how upset it makes me when I'm having a conversation with some snobby "Otaku" who will tell me I'm such a "kuso baka desu" (or something) for watching English dubs, but then sudden the subject turns to DBZ(!!!!) and now they switch to sounding like those Americans(?) who "can't read subtitles" and "can't listen to girly Japanese voices that hurt my ears".
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Re: English dubs of DBZ get away with what others can't?

Post by B » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:47 pm

DBZ is from a time when internet modems were potatoes. Obtaining it wasn't as easy as a few clicks and it was before the big anime boom, which Z was a part of. By and large, you weren't going to find a mess of people who have heard of it. The English version introduced and indoctrinated a lot of people to the series. Years go by, and you've got people watching anime the same day it airs in Japan, and dubs become more and more irrelevant.

It's really all a case of "the version I saw first is the best, because I saw it first." A large enough group of people had seen Naruto and BLEACH before they were dubbed.
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