Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5489
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Cipher » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:02 pm

ringworm128 wrote: You could apply that logic to pretty much anything. Someone on a diet? Better remove all the scenes of Goku and Buu eating food. Someone going through anger management? Better get rid of all the yelling and fighting. Someone who went to war and has PTSD might get into DB so we better get rid of the RRA and all guns so he doesn't have a flash back.
I don't this because it assumes either all things are equally harmful or nothing is. And that's not true.

It's not about triggering an individual. It's about contributing to a sense of societal jovialness over something that's really not funny at all. And to pre-empt yet another argument that it's okay to treat anything with levity -- it's important to recognize the difference between something people at large actually do acknowledge is horrible (violence, murder, etc.) and things people still dismiss regularly (molestation and any number of things women have to put up with daily). All issues are not the same issue.

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:11 pm

Cipher wrote: It's not about triggering an individual. It's about contributing to a sense of societal jovialness over something that's really not funny at all. And to pre-empt yet another argument that it's okay to treat anything with levity -- it's important to recognize the difference between something people at large actually do acknowledge is horrible (violence, murder, etc.) and things people still dismiss regularly (molestation and any number of things women have to put up with daily). All issues are not the same issue.
You've said in a previous post that people regularly dismiss rape and molestation, and now you've cut that down to just molestation, so just for the sake of promoting the discussion, which is it and can you provide any evidence to back those claims up?

rereboy wrote: In other words, TV shows and the like merely channel what is already there, just like they do with everything else. That's my whole point.

Stuff like that happens because people are racist or whatever is wrong with them. If TV shows and the like didn't exist, people would still be racist. Someone that is triggered by a TV show would most likely be triggered by something else. And guess what? People like that can't be isolated from all possible triggers, they can't be isolated from reality.

Blaming TV shows, videogames, movies, mangas, etc, is incredibly short sighted since any possible influence they may have by their own is the least important cause of undesirable behavior of them all and is pretty much negligible compared to the real underlying causes of such behavior.
So because people are going to be racist no matter what, it's okay to create TV shows that promote racism?

User avatar
Black_Anime_Fan
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:00 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois.
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Black_Anime_Fan » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:08 pm

I think there were more pervy moments than there needed to be. I love it.
Goku wrote:You haven't figured it out yet? I'm the Saiyan who came all the way from Earth for the sole purpose of beating you. I am the warrior you've heard of in legends, pure of heart and awakened by fury. That's what I am. I AM THE SUPER SAIYAN, SON GOKU!
DBZ ended after the Frieza Saga.

rereboy
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10261
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by rereboy » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:41 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote: So because people are going to be racist no matter what, it's okay to create TV shows that promote racism?
You misunderstood my point.

Anything that feels out of the norm, as in too much, will be shot down. A racist tv show survives in a racist society. In a society much less racist, it doesn't. TV shows and the like simply channel what already is present in the society. Anything that simply goes too much agaisnt it, especially in a way that is considered offensive, is shot down.

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10277
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:16 pm

ringworm128 wrote:Blacks were mistreated because America was founded by British people and the British weren't known for being open to other cultures same with Australia and Aboriginals.
There was racism in the Americas way before the British showed up.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

User avatar
Mewzard
I Live Here
Posts: 2006
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:02 pm
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Mewzard » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:38 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
ringworm128 wrote:Blacks were mistreated because America was founded by British people and the British weren't known for being open to other cultures same with Australia and Aboriginals.
There was racism in the Americas way before the British showed up.
Yeah, the Spaniards did a number on South and Central America (currently in Latin American History class) before Britain started founding colonies in the New World. Disease, conquest, the burning of ancient texts, a lot of bad stuff happened to the Americas.

On the matter of "perv" moments, Dragon Ball had quite a few, but it was just a part of what Toriyama found funny. The man also loved poop jokes (his sense of humor certainly wasn't the most sophisticated).
RIDER KIIIIIIICK!

User avatar
Ringworm128
I Live Here
Posts: 2929
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:27 am
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Ringworm128 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:44 pm

So because people are going to be racist no matter what, it's okay to create TV shows that promote racism?
Just because something is treated lightly or made fun of doesn't mean it promotes it. I doubt Toriyama thought "geez molestation in real life would be just dandy, I'm gonna promote the idea with my manga." Just like how John Romero probably didn't think "the world needs more gun violence" when he made Doom.
and things people still dismiss regularly
Again, since when is molestation treated lightly? As I said apart from child molesters they're considered the worst by most people.
If you have to write a small thesis every time you respond to a post you're not an intellectual, you're just bad at making your point.
https://youtu.be/QkwPrKLK0cE

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5489
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Cipher » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:56 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:You've said in a previous post that people regularly dismiss rape and molestation, and now you've cut that down to just molestation, so just for the sake of promoting the discussion, which is it and can you provide any evidence to back those claims up?
I mean, sexual assault (I've probably waffled on molestation/rape in this thread because both are sexual assault and there's no hard line) is horribly underreported and notoriously difficult to prove, our culture slut-shames like crazy and general fear that such incidents will happen to them and not be taken seriously is something that weighs on the minds of most women I've ever talked to seriously (not that I can speak for them). But yes, I'm sure I could find something more statistics-based to back that up as plenty of voices have spoken to these concerns.

User avatar
Fionordequester
I Live Here
Posts: 2781
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:33 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Fionordequester » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:26 pm

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/show ... ost8170840

Thought that might be relevant, and helpful to Cipher.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

User avatar
TheGmGoken
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10591
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by TheGmGoken » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:06 pm

The more I read from this thread. The more I wonder. What if DB was made with Highschool of the Dead, Rosario Vampire, Needless, Yoko from TTGL, or Desert Punk fan-service. I'm glad we just got the amount we did. That would be horrible.
I DO NOT HAVE A TWITTER
Son Goten

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:01 am

Cipher wrote:I mean, sexual assault (I've probably waffled on molestation/rape in this thread because both are sexual assault and there's no hard line)

I think it's common sense that rape involves sexual intercourse and molestation does not.
Cipher wrote: is horribly underreported and notoriously difficult to prove, our culture slut-shames like crazy and general fear that such incidents will happen to them and not be taken seriously is something that weighs on the minds of most women I've ever talked to seriously (not that I can speak for them). But yes, I'm sure I could find something more statistics-based to back that up as plenty of voices have spoken to these concerns.
That would help, because at this point it's all sounding fairly anecdotal. You're making some fairly big claims here ("horribly underreported", "shut-shames like crazy").
rereboy wrote: Anything that feels out of the norm, as in too much, will be shot down.
What do you mean by "shot down"? Condemned? It's possible for something to be condemned by the mainstream and yet still supported by a small number of people. Outlawed? It's possible for something to circulate illegally or on the fringe, as on the internet.

User avatar
dprez
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1381
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by dprez » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:12 am

Not enough. No just kidding but seriously from the start it was hilarious to me and I thought it fit perfectly. It's part of the charm of Dragon Ball. Japan is just like that anyway it seams haha...

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 3974
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:45 am

To answer the thread question: I don't think so. Compared to some other modern day anime I've seen (Sekirei, High School of the Dead, and the anime version of Rosario + Vampire, etc) the series is actually pretty tame.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

rereboy
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10261
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by rereboy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:34 am

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote: What do you mean by "shot down"? Condemned? It's possible for something to be condemned by the mainstream and yet still supported by a small number of people. Outlawed? It's possible for something to circulate illegally or on the fringe, as on the internet.
It either doesn't have the ratings/audience to keep going or, if its offensive, its literally taken down, or it only exists as a small thing that only some people with radical views care about (like a internet blog or something).

And something little with a small audience that only circulates illegally or on the fringe, as on the internet, is so not what I was talking about... I was talking about how its wrong and short-sighted to blame entertainment for some undesirable behavior instead of the actual real and importance causes, since entertainment only acts as a channel for what already exists in the society and any effect it has in actually creating/propagating undesirable behavior is negligible compared to the causes that actually created that behavior within the society in the first place.

You misunderstood completely what I was trying to say by stating that I thought that it was OK for racist programs to exist, and I explained that was not my point at all and that, since they channel the society, they naturally do not prosper if society at large doesn't agree with that entertainment.

Piccolo Daimaoh
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5407
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:40 am

rereboy wrote: I was talking about how its wrong and short-sighted to blame entertainment for some undesirable behavior instead of the actual real and importance causes, since entertainment only acts as a channel for what already exists in the society and any effect it has in actually creating/propagating undesirable behavior is negligible compared to the causes that actually created that behavior within the society in the first place.
But it isn't negligible. Media play an important role in people's behavior. For example, studies have linked violent video games to aggression in young people. No reasonable person would say media are the only cause, or even the main cause, but it's a cause that can't be ruled out, especially when it comes to people's well-being. Violence is something most people are against, yet violent video games and movies are readily available. This is obviously because they don't directly promote violence; they simply depict it. The problem arises when children, for whatever reason, struggle to tell the difference between the two.

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10798
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:28 pm

rereboy wrote:since entertainment only acts as a channel for what already exists in the society and any effect it has in actually creating/propagating undesirable behavior is negligible
I disagree. Entertainment is not the primary cause, obviously, but it is a huge one. Entertainment is the most popular and fastest-spreading way to disseminate information.

rereboy
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10261
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by rereboy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:38 pm

Rocketman wrote:
I disagree. Entertainment is not the primary cause, obviously, but it is a huge one. Entertainment is the most popular and fastest-spreading way to disseminate information.
But if you are going to blame entertainment than you might as well blame any way to transmit information. Including talking. See my point? Entertainment, like you said, just transmits the information that is collected ultimately from the society. It just channels it. Whatever really creates the unwanted issues and behavior is almost always something else. Entertainment very rarely creates something by itself because its only well-accepted by the society when its doesn't deviate too much from what society wants and thinks its good. If its not, it never prospers. And again, by this I'm not defending racist shows or whatever, I just don't believe entertainment is really the cause of such things. Its more like a symptom.

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10798
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:16 pm

You think talking can't convince people to do horrific things...?

User avatar
Ajay
Moderator
Posts: 6132
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 6:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Ajay » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:37 pm

Rocketman wrote:You think talking can't convince people to do horrific things...?
If the individual is susceptible to influence on a detrimental level then that's largely the fault of the individual.

Charles Manson convinced people to do horrendous things but those who committed the acts are still mentally unwell and just as at fault.

You can't place the blame entirely on something like media because it managed to trigger something in unwell individuals in the first place.
Follow me on Twitter for countless shitposts.

Deadtuber.

User avatar
Gyt Kaliba
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8834
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:38 am
Location: Arkansas
Contact:

Re: Do you think Dragon Ball had too much perv moments ?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:38 pm

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:The problem arises when children, for whatever reason, struggle to tell the difference between the two.
You're right about this, but that's still not entertainment of any kind's fault - that's on the parents. If their child can't tell the difference between what's real and not, than either they haven't done their job as a parent and not taught them to do that (or not allowed them to have 'inappropriate' materials if they can't tell the difference), or there's a greater problem that already exists. Entertainment can be a trigger, yes...but not the cause. And seeing as how anything can be a trigger, it still feels off to me to blame something for existing.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:If the individual is susceptible to influence on a detrimental level then that's largely the fault of the individual.

Charles Manson convinced people to do horrendous things but those who committed the acts are still mentally unwell and just as at fault.

You can't place the blame entirely on something like media because it managed to trigger something in unwell individuals in the first place.
Pretty much this, well said.
My Writing Endeavors - Twitter
"There are two kinds of folks who sit around thinking about how to kill people. Psychopaths, and mystery writers. I'm the kind that pays better." - Richard Castle, 'Castle'

Post Reply