Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

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Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by thatdbzguy » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:23 am

Going from Freeza's complete lack of personal backstory and repetitive fighting to Cell's lack of a goal and boringness to Buu being an annoying brat in some forms and bland as hell in others, why did Toriyama seem to just not try with the villains in DBZ?

I understand that DBZ isn't story heave at all, and I'm not asking for some background sob story for every single villain, but good lord, when I go back and read the manga or watch the anime, the poor handlement of the villains sticks out like a sore thumb.

What do you think?
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by RocktheDragon » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:33 am

thatdbzguy wrote:Going from Freeza's complete lack of personal backstory and repetitive fighting to Cell's lack of a goal and boringness to Buu being an annoying brat in some forms and bland as hell in others, why did Toriyama seem to just not try with the villains in DBZ?

I understand that DBZ isn't story heave at all, and I'm not asking for some background sob story for every single villain, but good lord, when I go back and read the manga or watch the anime, the poor handlement of the villains sticks out like a sore thumb.

What do you think?
Personally, I very much enjoy almost all of the villains. My favorite would probably have to be Freeza, and the villain that I appreciate the least is Cell.

I think they all serve their purposes as being a presence to band the Z fighters together, and I enjoyed the fact that many of Toriyama's creations had various transformations as well. With Maijin Buu, it got to the point where I think Toriyama was very self-aware of making almost every villain have transformations that it become more of a joke and spoof of that approach.

So to answer your question, everything was pretty much satisfactory to my tastes. Cell always had a defined goal to me, and that was a result of his "being" being a mixture of different individuals, which I guess makes his motives a bit hard to pin down. But my main problem with Cell was just that he seemed a little bland, at least compared to all of the other villains.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:45 am

Cell goal was be the ultimate life form in the Universe. If Cell destroy the Earth, he would travel across the universe and become stronger by absorbing another powerful fighter. I think Freeza and Cell had good goals. I can agree with Buu not having any real goals, but his character was fun enough for me to enjoy it.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Ringworm128 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:47 am

Freeza doesn't need a backstory, he's an evil tyrant who sells planets that he takes over that's all we need to know. And it's pretty obvious Freeza is the way he is simply from his upbringing.

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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Hades » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:54 am

I'd say Buu was handled best out of the lot: Ancient Horror that would have Freeza shit himself and actually lives up to that reputation (though were it up to me, I'd have had Buu's backstory be that it was created to be a weapon in DB's equivalent of Ragnarok)
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:10 am

thatdbzguy wrote:What do you think?
I think they weren't "poorly handled". No need to be condescending with your opinions. The question should be "Do you think villains were poorly handled in DBZ?" instead of "Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?" as if that was a fact.

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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by B » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:07 am

They don't need backstories; they have personalities. Admittedly, Cell might be a low rent Freeza, but he has such a distinct design and varied goals it can be ignored. That's where Toriyama shines; what can't be conveyed through story or dialog is there in his amazing art.

A pretty interesting contrast between Cell and Freeza is Cell's perceived perfection is real; he doesn't believe anyone or anything is better than him. Freeza is far more pragmatic. He knows he is powerful, but he's cautious. Cell would have never wiped out Planet Vegeta, and instead would've opted to take them all on as Super Saiyans if he could.

There's not a lot to say about Buu. He is ridiculous... and that is the point. I like that he's ridiculous. As far as a "threatening" villain goes, where do you go after Freeza and Cell(ETA: Toei's movie villains post-Cell are essentially monsters[Broly, Janemba, Hildegarn, Android 13], and Bojack, I suppose, is in the same vein as Freeza and Cell)? We've had a pretty natural progression of antagonists in terms of their threat level, which is kind of amazing considering how damned long the series is(I'd argue Piccolo Daimao brings the hammer down faster and scarier than Vegeta, though). And if you factor in Battle of Gods, Beers is a decent next step after Buu. He's a combination of serious and silly, and his design is pretty unique amongst DB characters in general and not just the enemies. I think Toriyama has always had a good head on his shoulders in regards to things like this. I like his comment that those "ears" he gives his enemies are simply the type of feature he believed monsters in his dreams had.

So... they weren't handled poorly at all! They all fulfilled their purpose and serviced their arc.
Last edited by B on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Looneygamemaster » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:06 am

You say "DBZ" specifically. Were the villains in DB really that much different? I mean, Daimao's my personal favorite, but he's just as flat and "bwahaha evil" as anyone in Z. And that's fine. For what DB's trying to be, villains don't need depth--just wicked charm.

Mind you, I did find problems with each of the "Big three" Z villains (Freeza loses his menace after Goku becomes Super Saiyan and Cell and Buu both have moments where they become Freeza copycats). But to say that they're "handled poorly" is an exaggeration.

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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by thatdbzguy » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:13 pm

Looneygamemaster wrote:You say "DBZ" specifically. Were the villains in DB really that much different? I mean, Daimao's my personal favorite, but he's just as flat and "bwahaha evil" as anyone in Z. And that's fine. For what DB's trying to be, villains don't need depth--just wicked charm.

Mind you, I did find problems with each of the "Big three" Z villains (Freeza loses his menace after Goku becomes Super Saiyan and Cell and Buu both have moments where they become Freeza copycats). But to say that they're "handled poorly" is an exaggeration.
How is making your villains copycats of a previous villain not poor handlement?
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:26 pm

Yeah they are just evil for the sake of being evil, and they generally become less interesting when the actual fight begins.

For Freeza, it was the constant instant transformations that turned me off. For Cell, after he beats Trunks it doesn't seem like he has a proper goal anymore and becomes boring.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:34 pm

Why does Freeza need a backstory? Are we going to try and boil his behavior down to one event?
he has a proper goal
Define proper goal. I'd say instilling fear and destroying stuff is as suitable and realistic a goal for that sort of being as most other goals.
Freeza loses his menace after Goku becomes Super Saiyan
Given how menacing he is for as long as he is, and how brutal he was, it's fitting that he gets his comeuppance.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Looneygamemaster » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:43 pm

How is making your villains copycats of a previous villain not poor handlement?
When you make it work in spite of that.

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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:57 pm

Looneygamemaster wrote:Cell and Buu both have moments where they become Freeza copycats
As if Freeza wasn't a Vegeta copycat.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Fionordequester » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:12 pm

They weren't poorly handled though.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Insertclevername » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:27 pm

Looking at most of the recent stuff that's been coming out, I now appreciate the lack of backstories for the proper villains.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:32 pm

It's all about the execution. I guess in that case Toriyama just ain't good with backstories.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Saiga » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:37 pm

There aren't very many villain back-stories that I can get behind. At best, it's usually apathy. And at worst, Obito Uchiha.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:56 pm

Well with Obito its the execution that ruined it. Way too much monologue, flashback, and I'd another see another reason other than the Rin subplot.
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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by MediaFanGirl93 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:07 pm

Every villain is obsessed with destroying Earth in this anime for no reason.

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Re: Why Were Villains Handled So Poorly in DBZ?

Post by Saiga » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:26 pm

MediaFanGirl93 wrote:Every villain is obsessed with destroying Earth in this anime for no reason.
That's not true. Piccolo Daimao was born out of God's hate for humanity, Piccolo Junior showed no desire to destroy Earth, Raditz wanted to wipe out humanity for profit, the only time Vegeta wanted to destroy Earth was out of vengeance, ditto for Freeza, Cold wanted to destroy Earth to be pragmatic, Cell said he honestly didn't care either way, none of the Boos are obsessed with Earth's destruction - Pure Boo just did it because he could. And I don't think anyone prior to Daimao expressed an interest in destroying Earth.
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