Did Goku Need More Development?

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thatdbzguy
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Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by thatdbzguy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:56 pm

So I was watching a DBZ panel featuring Chris Sabat, Eric Vale, and Monica Rial, when an interesting topic came up. A fan asked Chris Sabat what he thought of Vegeta's development over the series, which Sabat said was his favorite thing about DBZ. However, he took it a step further and said that he didn't like Goku and didn't think he was a good character because he remained largely static throughout all of DBZ. (He also said that Goku actually got worse, if anything.)

Now, regardless of how you feel about Goku, you have to admit that he did remain pretty much the same throughout Z. My question though, is if you think that Goku actually needed more character development if he wanted to be a good main protagonist? Do you think keeping Goku the same was ultimately for the better?
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:59 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:So I was watching a DBZ panel featuring Chris Sabat, Eric Vale, and Monica Rial, when an interesting topic came up. A fan asked Chris Sabat what he thought of Vegeta's development over the series, which Sabat said was his favorite thing about DBZ. However, he took it a step further and said that he didn't like Goku and didn't think he was a good character because he remained largely static throughout all of DBZ. (He also said that Goku actually got worse, if anything.)

Now, regardless of how you feel about Goku, you have to admit that he did remain pretty much the same throughout Z. My question though, is if you think that Goku actually needed more character development if he wanted to be a good main protagonist? Do you think keeping Goku the same was ultimately for the better?
I think having every character change is some rule of writing that people dogmatically hold. Goku doesn't need to change, but what I like is the effect he has on those around him. Vegeta wouldn't have the dynamic character arc he did without Goku being who he is. Goku doesn't need to change, he's a character with a unique, well defined personality.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Marco Polo » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:07 pm

Goku changed throughout pre-Saiyan Saga DB. I don't see why he couldn't continue to develop in DBZ.

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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:08 pm

I suppose if one wanted to try and create an "in-universe" explanation as to why Goku didn't develop much, one could use the tried-but-true brain damage excuse...in effect, not leaving much room for development.

However, characters don't necessarily have to develop or change much to be likeable...or for that matter, loveable.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:33 pm

There's no reason why he couldn't develop more, but there's no reason why he has to either.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:24 pm

I'd say he reached the peak of his development at the Frieza arc. Goku's development from the beginning of DB derived mainly from learning the world around him. I really don't see a way of him developing more that wouldn't hurt his character.

I do think his character sorta took a step back in the Buu arc though.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Basaku » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:27 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:He also said that Goku actually got worse, if anything.
I disagree that every character needs to go thourgh 180s during the run of a series but, this is a bit true. Especially Goku's later approach to being a parent was a bit ugh... :?

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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by penguintruth » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:41 pm

Admittedly, Goku is pretty static, but he's also the gravitational force by which other characters change and develop, and a plot catalyst made flesh... er, ink.

He's sort of like Lupin III in that way, though less episodic. Lupin is going to be Lupin in every tale. Lupin doesn't really change that much. But he's a hell of a character.

Sabat does have a point, but Goku is just too damn charming for me to hate. I love the silly bum.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:48 pm

It was as if in Z Goku didn't learn a thing.
Saiyan Saga: Let Vegeta live.
Freeza: gave him energy and Freeza tried to kill him with it.
Cell: Gave him a senzu bean. Most moronic thing he has ever done.
Buu: didn't destroy Buu in the hopes Gohan/Goten would do it. Later everyone died.

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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:55 pm

He had a good moment of development during Gohan's battle with Cell. Granted he refused to step in for a while but once Piccolo properly explained the situation, Goku didn't just ignore it or shrug it off. You see on his face that he realized he made a big mistake and immediately asks for a Senzu so he could jump in and help.

Also, regarding his "ass" moves in the Buu saga regarding not killing Fat Buu. He had a point. He did not want everyone to rely on him all the time whenever trouble came up. He wanted the others to be capable of defending the earth if and when he was gone. He also had no idea how Gotenk's was going to act. If he knew Gotenks would screw around most of the time instead of getting the job done, do you really think he'd have put so much time and effort on teaching the boys?
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:59 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:It was as if in Z Goku didn't learn a thing.
Saiyan Saga: Let Vegeta live.
Freeza: gave him energy and Freeza tried to kill him with it.
Cell: Gave him a senzu bean. Most moronic thing he has ever done.
Buu: didn't destroy Buu in the hopes Gohan/Goten would do it. Later everyone died.
Giving Cell the senzu wasn't an act of mercy. I don't see how stupid it was, it didn't change a damn thing.

Buu: once again, it's a retcon. Toriyama hadn't thought of SS3, so Goku letting Buu free was not something he could've stopped.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Chuquita » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:59 pm

At the very beginning of the BOG speculation, I really thought Gokû was going to get one of those heartbreaking moments, and I was super curious about it, but when it didn't, I still felt satisfied by the fun type character moments he had instead. Also, that hurt/worried look on toddler Kakarrotto's face in the Minus short made me rethink wanting to see Gokû go though something emotional. I like the character as he is. He's got flaws, but I think that makes him more interesting.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by penguintruth » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:22 pm

His simplicity is what makes him charming. Some characters you want to see fully fleshed, with complicated egos and motivations, and that's good, we should want to see that, generally.

Goku? He likes a good fight. Sure, we see him approach combat a bit differently, learn that other people don't quite work on the same frequency he does, but he stays largely static because 1) he's a hero in a children's manga and 2) he doesn't need to be any more complex than he already is.

Is Son Goku one of the most complex, compellingly intriguing characters in manga/anime? Of course not. But he's got this admirable earnestness that makes him charming. It's something that is replicated a lot, but rarely mastered.

You know, James Bond isn't going to be quite as interesting as, say, Michael Corleone, but he's still an interesting guy.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:17 pm

Believe it or not, I think I'd have to agree pretty much wholeheartedly with penguintruth on this one. What makes Goku...well, Goku, is the fact that he's this immovable character type. He's a child at heart in a lot of ways, and the very selfishness that makes him a real asshole if you think about it by real world standards, usually just makes you shake your head and go 'Oh that Goku'. And he does develop at least slightly, between where we're left with him after beating Daimao and his return to the 23rd Budokai.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Gonstead » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:30 pm

Mind actually posting a link to this panel? Time in the video?
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:29 am

Goku development was in Dragonball. Even more in Freeza ane Cell arc. No he needs no more. His character is fully develop.

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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:42 am

One course of development that I'd like to see more is him stressing over what he might become as a Super Saiyan, rather than the whole thing being reduced to just another convenient power-up that can be achieved a little emotional trauma.
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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by FrogTrigger » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:33 am

I agree with penguintruth

Goku is too goofy to hate

Probe why all his friends are former rivals lol

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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Vijay » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:12 am

Another reason why I despise Funi VA's. Destroying Vegeta's wonderful characterization to generic 1 + 1 = 2 kinda VA is talking about Goku's character development.

On topic, Goku's peak of character development was Piccolo Daimou arc itself. The show was practically about him, thus completes his cycle of Strongest under Heaven.

DBZ became more of OTHERS as well as Goku. Vegeta's character was fleshed-out. Gohan's growth, Piccolo's change of heart via Gohan's love, Bulma's motherhood etc.

Still, I felt Goku's development hit another notch in Cell Saga. Gohan taking over (which was under-conceived for me) & Goku staying Dead as Guardian of OtherWorld was nice.

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Re: Did Goku Need More Development?

Post by Marco Polo » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:15 am

I disagree with penguintruth. Character development doesn't mean it has to be complex. Goku had plenty of development pre-Saiyan Saga yet that didn't particularly make him a complex character. Character development is just growth, and there's always room to grow as a fighter. I mean, isn't that the whole point of a shonen protagonist?

Goku is a guy that just wants to fight stronger and stronger opponents. When he loses to someone, all he has to do is find a way to get stronger and then he'll defeat the opponent. How does he find that way? Not through boring, mindless training. He does it through character development! For example:

-When we learned why he chose to master Full-Power SSJ instead of Ascended SSJ, that was character development.
-When he had to change plans after Piccolo made him realize Gohan doesn't like fighting, that was character development, as someone said above.
-When we saw newfound excitement in him when he met Uub because training with Goten just doesn't cut it anymore, that was character development.
-When he tried to find a way to beat Birus (and learned to stay SSJ God even after the spell had worn off), that was character development.

Notice how, in three of these examples, he grew through the actions of others. Other people change thanks to him, but the reverse is also true.

On the other hand, Goku didn't grow at all in the Buu Saga (aside from the random wish for Buu to reincarnate, at the very last end) -- he was already stronger than Fat Buu, and he messed up big time.

So I guess my point is that character development doesn't have to imply complexity, just growth as a fighter in the case of Goku. There was plenty of that pre-Saiyan Saga, but not as much in DBZ, and practically none in the Buu Saga.

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