Hate of the Saiyans? Love of the Humans?

[Retan]

So I've noticed that this forum really loves the non saiyan fighters, even liking the ones that appeared in but one scene like Roshi's Master, and growing tired of the Saiyans getting to much glory quite a bit in post. I was just wondering why that is? Are Goku, Vegeta and the kids just not that entertaining to you. Are Tien, Yamcha, and Piccolo, just more interesting, or it it because you just like DB much more then Z, or is it something completely different like me not getting what your complaining about?

I've always liked the Saiyans getting the glory, and stories personally, even though I did really like original DB series as well, I've always felt they were what made DB (Even if it wasn't known tell Z started that Goku was one) So different. Heck I even like all the transformations even BoG's God transformation.

[TheGmGoken]

I hate of all them them. Just kidding. Besides Krillin fuck the humans. They're funny but cannot be taken seriously. Ten is too serious and Roshi is a YoshiYolshi tooYoshi bYoshiYolshi. The only character that umatters is Goten. He the best ever. No on e Compare. Not Even Goku(a wanna be Goten)).

Edit: Sorry for confusing text. My phone fucking up lately. Basically Goten in the house. He's the best and no one can compare

[Attitudefan]

For me, I think it is because the humans were very interesting characters but fell to the wayside too early, yet, someone like Vegeta hangs around the main plot all the time after he is introduced. Why couldn't the other characters such as Yamcha and Tenshinhan get that kind of treatment? They were interesting, had interesting techniques and were very much ingrained in the mystic and philosphy of the martial arts aspect of fighting. When watching the Piccolo Daimao arc, when a lot of the side characters are used to advance the plot, it gets extremely interesting! Tenshinhan goes off trying to defeat Piccolo on his own accord worrying everyone else, Goku meets Yajirobi and have a small adventure together which leads to the eventual defeat of the big bad; Yamcha might be on the sidelines but he gets introduced to the moster and later takes off with Bulma to join in on the fight with Piccolo (but it's over by the time they arrive). To sum up how I feel, they had all these characters with different motivations and stories but were intertwined all together to eventually take on the big bad (Piccolo) and defeat him.

I don't think it's hate on the Saiyans, but their hogging of the spotlight overstayed it's welcome by the end of DBZ I think. Imagine how the Buu arc could have been if we had all these people and their mini-storylines intertwine with the main plot. Tenshinhan wanted to prove to himself that he was a martial artist, Yamcha was running out of time and needed to recover fast, Roshi had the task of taking Tenshinhan under his wing, teach him what makes a true martial artist but also had history with Piccolo, thus he had his own selfish motivation to outsmart Piccolo and take him on alone.

The Namek arc is the same as this because Vegeta is not a Super Saiyan and has his own reasons to do what he was doing and same goes for Krillin and Gohan. The antagonists were the same as well, where Dodoria was exposition to the end of the Saiyan race, and Zarbon had his reasons to please his master. I could go on.

So it isn't about hating the Saiyans in particular, but what became of them and how they were used in the story later on. Bad guy is too powerful? Just go up a level in Super Saiyaness. This trope is established in the Cell arc, and continues into the Buu arc. The readers are aware and understand that by the time the Buu arc rolls around that if a character cannot transform into a Super Saiyan, those said characters are useless. It wasn't so in Dragonball with the humans and it wasn't so until the Cyborg arc/Cell arc. What establishes this trend that the big bad can only be defeated by the Saiyans is with the arrival of Trunks and his swift defeat of Freeza. Who was the focus in the group that watched Trunks take out Freeza? Vegeta. Who were the protagonists of this arc who could threaten the bad guys? Vegeta, Trunks, Goku, and Gohan (Piccolo did get his power up, but by the time the Cell games are announced, Piccolo does nothing but cower in heaven along with Tenshinhan. We don't see him train despite it being mentioned. The focus on Piccolo is swiftly taken out from him at that point).

[B]

I don't subscribe to the notion that characters become "useless" if they can't/don't fight/win; the story simply moved in a direction where the non-Saiyans were no longer needed. But, at the same time, those characters were more varied and interesting than Vegeta, Gohan, or Trunks were for the bulk of their run.

So I guess my answer is yes, I prefer the humans, but they're exclusion is not directly related to why the Saiyans are lacking.

[Vijay]

Why hate Saiyans when they're the reason why DBZ became famous? At least Super Saiyan forms pushed the show to near indestructible fandom..

Human Z-fighters are Okayish. Minor relevance is better then "over-exposed" syndrome.

Tien & Krillin's contributions in Cell Saga is note-worthy. But Krillin in Saiyan-Namek-Frieza saga was just too much. All he did was train,got beat-up, search for DB's in Namek, escape frm Vegeta, Ginyu, Frieza, finally got killed.

I like Master Roshi though. Really wish to learn more of his backstory other than little flasbacks in Piccolo Daimou Arc.

Sorely underused would be Roshi. Saiyan~Namek~Frieza~Cell~Buu~EoZ. Roshi did nothing.

[Kid Buu]

Probably because Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and definitely Chaozu deserved more in the story.

[TheGmGoken]

Probably because Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and definitely Chaozu deserved more in the story.

People forget only 2/5 of the Main humans was useless.
Ten was helpful. He stopped Cell and Boo
Krillin was important every arc cept Boo
Mark was VERY important in Boo

[Kid Buu]

Probably because Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and definitely Chaozu deserved more in the story.

People forget only 2/5 of the Main humans was useless.
Ten was helpful. He stopped Cell and Boo
Krillin was important every arc cept Boo
Mark was VERY important in Boo

Yamcha gathered the Dragon Balls and made the wish to resurrect everyone that had died in that day, which is when Goku teleported there to find them.

[baneofdemon22]

I love the Saiyans, Piccolo, Bulma, and Krillin. I really like Ten and think he served his purpose well, but Piccolo took over his role, and had a lot more going for him. Yamcha is completely useless, and should have stuck behind in Dragon Ball. Everything he did in Dragon Ball could have been tasks to make other characters better utilized. Puar was more useful.

[shinmaru]

Tenshinhan is the best human with the best skills.
Shame that he can't keep up with the Aliens, what a waste

[Gyt Kaliba]

It's not that I hate the Saiyans, not by a long shot - hell, if we ever get another game with a character creator, while I'd certainly make some Human or Namekian and such characters, my main would definitely be a Saiyan - but it's just...it's a really unbalanced thing, where only the Saiyans get focus in the series as the story moves on, and it's seeped into the fandom now too where a lot of people go 'Oh, this character is just a weak human, why even bother'. That to me is sad, really sad, because it means they're robbing themselves of some truly emotional moments when certain characters meet their demise (even if it is, yes, temporary).

Besides, why wouldn't you love Kuririn? He's just plain awesome.

[Wibbs]

I don't outright hate the Saiyans, I just find some of the human characters more relateable. It's easier to understand why Krillin doesn't want to destroy Android 18 than it is to understand why Saiyans like fighting so much.

[superfunk]

I agree with gmgoken, besides krillin fuck the humans.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't hate them (except for Vegeta sometimes), but their predominance does get in the way, strangle the story, and does away with the themes I prefer. While there is a legitimate reason to believe that the best fighters are going to get the most screen time in a series based around fighting, it really annoys me how the fandom is so shallow in regards to how they perceive characters. If they aren't the best fighters, they're worthless and deserving of nothing but contempt. They don't deserve to be in the series. They don't deserve development. They don't deserve interesting things to do. But I can't really blame the fandom for that. It's Toriyama's fault because that's exactly what he did. And yet there are a few non-combatants who DO get things to do, so it's not like it's impossible or even unprecedented. I like the early characters, and it has nothing to do with how "badass" they can be. I like the characters themselves. I like the way the group interacts. I like their personalities, the sense of family.

But then again, if you want to talk about usefulness, you have Vegeta, who, after the Freeza arc, is overall less than useless. People complain about Yamucha and Chaozu contributing nothing in later arcs (or nothing ever for the latter), but contributing nothing is better than actively making things substantially worse. If you think about it, Vegeta is responsible for the rise of every major threat in the series from his introduction onwards. He's the most effective villain the series has ever had. But now I'm getting off on a tangent.

What annoys me about the Saiyan predominance is the same thing that annoys me about post-ESB force users in the Star Wars universe: it's largely all about genetics. In a strive-to-be-the-best-you-can-be martial arts story, striving to be the best doesn't matter as much as being born to the right parents. In the early stories, you got the idea that Goku, Kuririn, and Yamucha had their powers because of who they were, not what they were. In the later stories, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks don't even really care about becoming better fighters, but they won the genetic lottery, so... yay! And this is after the Saiyan arc made it a big deal pitting Goku and Vegeta against each other. That the low class scum can rise to defeat the elite by remaining humble and being a hard worker. And then it just becomes, "Nope. You're never going to match up. You're never going to be the best. You might as well just stay home, you useless piece of crap." What a good message.

[Kid Buu]

To add to the previous post, I think what Gaffer Tape says basically is what sets the line between the hardcore fanbase and the casual fanbase. The hardcore fans seem to prefer the first half, and have a soft spot for the earlier characters. The casual fans seem to prefer the latter half, and have a soft spot for the more "badass" characters like Vegeta and SSJ2 Kid Gohan. Recently I was reading an interview with the Japanese Cast and both Kuririn and Yamcha's Voice Actors were mentioning how their characters weren't popular among kids due to their lack of strength.

In the earlier chapters, power was obtained through hard-work and dedication. The only exception I can think of is perhaps the Sacred Water in the Daimao arc, but I actually think that arc is when the series started its decline anyway. Starting from Namek (or Saiyan if you want to include Gohan's rage boosts), there was about as much free powerups than training in the series. Hell, Namek alone had some of the cheapest power ups ever - Guru raising Gohan & Kuririn's power, Piccolo fusing with Nail, and Goku & Vegeta's Zenkais. Another thing is that it's not about hating the Saiyans, as Gaffer Tape has said, but it's their whole "lack of hard work and yet we are still the strongest anyway" stitch that the half-Saiyans had. Heck, even a pure-blood like Goku who does train, gets handed power a lot, which made Battle of Gods awkward when he talks about "accomplishing" new power in his own in favor of borrowing from others. What about the "Super Moutain Dew"? Super Saiyan randomly increasing his power fifty fold? Fusion? The dude has participated in hax shit before, why the sudden issue with this and the Elder Kai Power?

[TheGmGoken]

Hey Kid Buu where would I be placed unless you meant on average? I prefer the Z cast but Krillin kinda always was better than any Saiyans besides Goten, Goku, and Bardock. I always thought Ten was boring, Yamcha was a joke since day one, Roshi is in his own class below Goten, and Chazou is a type I wasn't a fan of even outside of Db. So would that put me with Casual or "Above Casual/ More dedicated" fans.

[DarkPrince_92]

I like characters because of how they are generally. Vegeta is my favorite hands down, then Piccolo, then Tenshinhan. I wish Tenshinhan got more after Dragon Ball, because he's my number one in Dragon Ball. I loved watching him fight.

[thatdbzguy]

The humans were fun, interesting, variable, relatable, and became strong because of who they were.

The Saiayns were not fun, were not interesting, were not varied, were not relatable, and became strong because of what they were.

[TheGmGoken]

The humans were fun, interesting, variable, relatable, and became strong because of who they were.

The Saiayns were not fun, were not interesting, were not varied, were not relatable, and became strong because of what they were.

Just curious but you think Goku and Vegeta didn't work hard for their power?

[thatdbzguy]

The humans were fun, interesting, variable, relatable, and became strong because of who they were.

The Saiayns were not fun, were not interesting, were not varied, were not relatable, and became strong because of what they were.

Just curious but you think Goku and Vegeta didn't work hard for their power?

Even if they didn't work hard for their power, they still have a significant starting advantage when compared to the humans.