Gohan Question

[tarsonis]

Duo, I agree with every point you make. Gohan is the strongest character hands down, and my favorite character in DBZ, pre-Buu saga that is. It's too bad that his character was kind of wasted in the Buu saga, where he just wasn't given enough to do. I can see where some get the idea that Gohan "had it easy", because he'd get sudden bursts of power when he actually had little training. But this isn't a bad thing, in fact, I think this is why he's interesting, because this makes him potentially the strongest character in DBZ. Think of DBZ as a story of him reaching his true power, a little at a time, finally getting there at the end of the Cell saga.

[Victator Supreme]

So?

I'll type slowly so the rubes can understand. Someone says that getting the latent power Gohan already had inside released cheating. But thinks there is nothing wrong with letting a wizard unleash the latet evil in Vegeta's soul to get a power increase.


That is completely asinine.

[desirecampbell]

So?

I'll type slowly so the rubes can understand. Someone says that getting the latent power Gohan already had inside released cheating. But thinks there is nothing wrong with letting a wizard unleash the latet evil in Vegeta's soul to get a power increase.


That is completely asinine.

yeah...

I said "so?" because your post didn't say anything. You just said...

I'm pretty sure that's about what Vegeta says he did. And it's nowhere near Gohan's level of cheating.

Um he killed a stadium full of people.

What does "he killed a stadium full of people" prove? That he's evil? That being evil is 'cheating' somehow?

Don't be a dick, I just wanted clarification on what you meant

The point you were contesting (apparently) was that Vegeta 'cheated' just as much as gohan to get stronger - well, you seem to fail to realize that Vegeta actually had to do something (not much, but something) to get a slight bit stronger. Gohan did absolutly nothing (literally, he sat there) to go from comparetively nothing to uber-powerful.

Was that slow enough, rube?

[Victator Supreme]

I think this is the point I give you and Rocketman a caramel, pat you on the head and leave.

[desirecampbell]

I think this is the point I give you and Rocketman a caramel, pat you on the head and leave.

As long as you leave

[Rocketman]

I'll type slowly so the rubes can understand. Someone says that getting the latent power Gohan already had inside released cheating. But thinks there is nothing wrong with letting a wizard unleash the latet evil in Vegeta's soul to get a power increase.


That is completely asinine.

I don't think having someone else unlock your latent power is 'wrong'. My beef with Gohan is two things:

One:
Goku - Had to drink an extremely deadly poison and fight it off to unlock his power.

Vegeta - Had to put aside his pride and sell himself into slavery.

Gohan - Had to sit on his ass for a day.

Two:
Goku - Relatively small power increase, putting him even with King Piccolo.

Vegeta - Relatively small power increase, putting him even with SSj2 Goku.

Gohan - Possibly the biggest increase in the entire series, catapulting him higher than any other hero except Vegetto.

Does the least, gets the most. Gohan: bargain-bin hero.

[Victator Supreme]

Two:
Goku - Relatively small power increase, putting him even with King Piccolo.

Goku was given a huge increase. Before he was no match for the elderly Demon King Piccolo. After drinking the God water he was stronger than Piccolo at the height of his powers.

[Socar15]

Vegeta - Had to put aside his pride and sell himself into slavery.

Again, no, Vegeta did not sell himself into slavery. He clearly resisteted Babidi and did what he wanted, when he wanted. Hell, in the manga, he even told Babidi he wouldn’t be his slave.

Gohan - Had to sit on his ass for a day.

So? You act like this is Gohan’s fault somehow. Last time I checked, it wasn’t Gohan who asked for that power. He would’ve rather gone and fight Buu as he was, instead Goku told him to stay there. Everyone else has always been expecting great things out of Gohan. How would you feel if people had such high expectations for you, while also having to get an education?

Goku - Relatively small power increase, putting him even with King Piccolo.

Relatively small to what? If you mean relatively small to the kind of increases Gohan got, then yes of course. Goku was relatively weak compared to Gohan during that time.

Vegeta - Relatively small power increase, putting him even with SSj2 Goku.

It was not a relatively small increase. If it had only been a minor increase than he wouldn’t have bothered and had himself become a Majin. Vegeta must have felt that there was a significant enough gap in their power to warrant making that kind of decision.

My beef with Gohan

How is any of this Gohan’s fault? He didn’t ask to be born with the ability to boost his power whenever he gets angry. He certainly didn’t ask for the Mystic power up. From the look of things he would have much rather it be Goku sitting there. Why you have any “beef with Gohan” is completely beyond me. If you’re going to be miffed with anyone, be miffed at the person who freaking wrote the story, not the character who just did what he was told.

[Jerseymilk]

Rocketman, I think that your extreme dislike of Gohan is making you a little too biased in this debate. I know that you've never liked the character as you've pointed it out in other threads before. Many times it's been some kind of barb.

Anyway, I agree with Socar's point about Vegeta getting the Majin power-up. He knew perfectly well what he was doing. He was the one that used Babidi, not the other way around.

As for Gohan, it was Old Kaioshin that was the one that told him to just sit there, so blame him.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta - Had to put aside his pride and sell himself into slavery.

Again, no, Vegeta did not sell himself into slavery. He clearly resisteted Babidi and did what he wanted, when he wanted. Hell, in the manga, he even told Babidi he wouldn’t be his slave.

I doubt Vegeta knew he could do that before he allowed Babidi to possess him. When he made the decision, it was likely assuming that Babidi would control him. The fact he could throw off Babidi's control afterwards doesn't change that.

Gohan - Had to sit on his ass for a day.

So? You act like this is Gohan’s fault somehow. Last time I checked, it wasn’t Gohan who asked for that power. He would’ve rather gone and fight Buu as he was, instead Goku told him to stay there. Everyone else has always been expecting great things out of Gohan. How would you feel if people had such high expectations for you, while also having to get an education?

I know it's not Gohan's fault.

Goku - Relatively small power increase, putting him even with King Piccolo.

Relatively small to what? If you mean relatively small to the kind of increases Gohan got, then yes of course. Goku was relatively weak compared to Gohan during that time.

Small, period. I hate to bring power levels into this, but since Goku was only 416 at the Raditz fight, he can't have gotten much from the Holy Water.

Vegeta - Relatively small power increase, putting him even with SSj2 Goku.

It was not a relatively small increase. If it had only been a minor increase than he wouldn’t have bothered and had himself become a Majin. Vegeta must have felt that there was a significant enough gap in their power to warrant making that kind of decision.

Relatively small. like I posted earlier:

Vegeta:

SSj2 Gohan
Dabura
SSj2 Vegeta < starts here
SSj2 Goku < ends here
Fat Buu

Gohan:

SSj2 Gohan < starts here
Dabura
SSj2 Vegeta
SSj2 Goku
Fat Buu
Kid Buu
SSj3 Goku
Super Buu
SSj3 Gotenks
Mystic Gohan < ends here

My beef with Gohan

How is any of this Gohan’s fault? He didn’t ask to be born with the ability to boost his power whenever he gets angry. He certainly didn’t ask for the Mystic power up. From the look of things he would have much rather it be Goku sitting there. Why you have any “beef with Gohan” is completely beyond me. If you’re going to be miffed with anyone, be miffed at the person who freaking wrote the story, not the character who just did what he was told.[/quote]

You're right, I should have said 'my beef with Mr. Toriyama's portrayal of Gohan.'

Rocketman, I think that your extreme dislike of Gohan is making you a little too biased in this debate. I know that you've never liked the character as you've pointed it out in other threads before. Many times it's been some kind of barb.

As for Gohan, it was Old Kaioshin that was the one that told him to just sit there, so blame him.

Yeah, I know I'm biased against Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. It's not that I don't like the character (well, actually, I don't like Goten and Kid Trunks at all...), it's just, Gohan never really seems to do anything that justifies him becoming Earth's Hero, and yet he keeps being pushed into the spotlight, and given magical powerups when he falls behind, and whatnot.

And I can't hate Elder Kai. He's responsible for Vegetto, after all.

[Jerseymilk]

And I can't hate Elder Kai. He's responsible for Vegetto, after all.

Eeeexcuses, excuses.....

[tarsonis]

While you are entitled to your opinion, I have never been bothered by the fact that Goten and Trunks got their powers so easily compared to others. In fact, I've never really thought about it.

[Victator Supreme]

Small, period. I hate to bring power levels into this, but since Goku was only 416 at the Raditz fight, he can't have gotten much from the Holy Water.

I hate to repeat myself

Goku was given a huge increase. Before he was no match for the elderly Demon King Piccolo. After drinking the God water he was stronger than Piccolo at the height of his powers.

[Dayspring]

Small, period. I hate to bring power levels into this, but since Goku was only 416 at the Raditz fight, he can't have gotten much from the Holy Water.

It's a significant boost considering his PL was only 180 prior to drinking it, and 260 afterwards.

[Duo]

Dragonball Power Levels are impossible...tis' useless to try and pinpoint them.

So we have Goku, who's like...the strongest. He get's owned by Old Daimao who is only using half of his power.

Then he comes back even with a full power young Piccolo.

That's easily a 4 or 5 fold increase, right there.

[Victator Supreme]

I would say it is as much an increase as what Gohan got from the Old Kai.

[VegettoEX]

Let's try *really hard* to not have this be a generic discussion involving algebraic-representations of "power" between characters combined with power-level guesses.

[ulisa]

I could go on forever about this topic but I'll try and not to. I have my own theories about Gohan and I realize they might be not what others think but hey, everyone is entitled to their own, right? That said, here are my thoughts:

Gohan, in my opinion, has the most potential, hands down. While he is a half hybrid liek Trunks and Goten, those two didn't seem to have the character for fighting, at least when they were younger. I see Trunks as too impeteous and prideful but that's typical of a little kid, especially one of Vegeta's blood. Goten I see as having a desire to fight but in a way, I think he was cheated because the first battle he was thrown into was a major battle and here is a child that has only had limited training and no experience fighting whatsoever. I think that might have driven the love for fighting out of him.

Anyway, getting back to Gohan, he was given an almost perfect situation. I don't think Gohan really wants to be a scholar although he says he does. The reason being that while he loves to read and explore, he was always trying to escape the books, even before he was introduced to fighting. Why would he keep saying he wants to be a scholar? I personally think the blame for that could be placed on ChiCHi. In fact, I think a lot of the way Gohan turned out could be blamed on ChiChi. I don't think she meant to do her son harm but judging from his character, I think she did.

I'm taking psychology in school, working towards a PhD in it, and I see a heck of a case in Gohan.

First, ChiChi pretty much chose his life for him from the moment he was born. This probably meant she pushed academics on him probably from the moment he was born, while Goku merely found himself enjoying this new thing called 'parenthood.' Yes, he wanted to teach him martial arts but he didn't push it either, unlike ChiChi.

Psychologically this tends to produce unconditional and conditional positive regard which is what I think happened with Gohan. Unconditional positive regard is I believe the case between Goku and Gohan. Plainly put, this means that Gohan believes that no matter what he does, his father will love him. Goku praises Gohan for both martial arts and studying; heck, he pretty much praises him no matter what he chooses to do. With ChiChi however, she is constantly insulting the martial arts Gohan pursues, only insisting on more and more studying. She has cut down Gohan's friends, namely Piccolo, on more than one occasion. This can do horrors with a kid's mind. I believe Gohan has conditional positive regard for ChiChi, meaning he feels he has to earn her love.

I think that has a lot to do with what happened in those seven years. Gohan no longer has his father around whom he knew would love him. For a child with conditional positive regard, he would throw himself into anything he knew would get him praise or respect and ChiChi had pounded into his head that this was studying. With the birth of Goten, this would have become doubly important as there is no competition for love and a child who believes they have to earn love, isn't about to believe there is enough to go around. As Goten got older and revealed ChiChi was training him, this would probably create a sense of failure, of being replaced whether or not that was his mother's intention. ChiChi, after all, was giving Goten freely what Gohan had fought for his whole childhood. I think those seven years of 'slacking' as people put it, was more of an attempt to keep his mother's love.

That aside, given the conflicts between mother and father, Gohan's confidence and belief in himself is the real problem. When he is with mother and father, his confidence falters. When he goes and trains solely with his father or Piccolo, his confidence soars. I think his lacking in the Buu saga was mainly due to not having such a belief in him for seven years. Once the power up by Old Kai was implanted, the entire time he was training, his father kept saying 'do your best' or other such encouraging words. So, those who say Gohan constantly needs hsi father or Piccolo to hold his hand are right in that sense. He hasn't really learned that he has to have confidence in himself. He gets his confidence from outside sources which is really where he falters.

Wow...that was a lot longer than I intended...sorry. But that's my take on Gohan:)

Ulisa

[unstable_person99]

With ChiChi however, she is constantly insulting the martial arts Gohan pursues, only insisting on more and more studying. She has cut down Gohan's friends, namely Piccolo, on more than one occasion. This can do horrors with a kid's mind. I believe Gohan has conditional positive regard for ChiChi, meaning he feels he has to earn her love.

Exactly why I hate Chichi. I mean Gohan would've been way more powerful if his b*tch of a mother hadn't been so OBSESSED with making him study all the time. Gohan is one of my favorite characters but I HATE the way he turned out in GT and I also hate the fact that he lost his Mystic power(thanks a lot Toei ).

[Jerseymilk]

I think what people have to understand about Chi-Chi is, she only wanted the best for her son. She believed that that meant excelling at studies and becoming a scholar. You also have to realize that both Goku and Chi-Chi come from backgrounds that are very uneducated and "country-bumkin-ish" if you will. I've always sensed that Chi-Chi was a bit ashamed of that and wanted things to be different for her son. There is also the fact that Chi-Chi is basically a perfect example of a "study mom" in Japan.

A lot of this is a cultural thing too. In many countries, especially Asian ones, families will try and make sure one of their children, usually the oldest, gets the best education available to them so that they will be successful. It is then expected that the "successful child" of the family takes care of the rest of the family, especially the parents. It's not because the family are mooching, but because, well, they're family and family looks out for one another. Another example is people that immigrate to North America from poorer countries. A lot of the times it's because they want their children to have a better education and opportunities than they had, so they'll have a better standard of living.

So you can villify Chi-Chi all you want, but she was also doing what she felt was best for her son in her own way.