Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:It's filler bruh. In-canon doesn't indicate this. In-canon indicates Freeza actually treated him comparatively well, especially for a "dirty Saiyan". It's why the others were so bitter toward him.
I mean you don't think he was given a rank second only to Dodoria and Zarbon because Freeza hated him or wanted to abuse him, do you? And, as stated, Vegeta felt almost nothing for his people and their fate. He viewed their betrayal and Freeza's lie to be a personal slight.
I know it's filler but it says something if they can come to that interpretation. Also, I don't remember Freeza ever giving Vegeta a particular ranking (he was even lower on the chain than Kiwi). He was his bitch like everyone else.
And yes, Vegeta may have said the betrayal and lie didn't matter to him but Vegeta has shown to be a contradiction of himself. He was pouring his heart out to Goku to avenge his people before he died on Namek. It just shows he hides his emotions really well.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:>Heavily implied in filler
>Filler
It's filler bruh. In-canon doesn't indicate this. In-canon indicates Freeza actually treated him comparatively well, especially for a "dirty Saiyan". It's why the others were so bitter toward him.
I mean you don't think he was given a rank second only to Dodoria and Zarbon because Freeza hated him or wanted to abuse him, do you? And, as stated, Vegeta felt almost nothing for his people and their fate. He viewed their betrayal and Freeza's lie to be a personal slight.
Let's take a few steps back, actually.
Remember that Vegeta was the prince of his entire race. While he might not have felt much affection for his kin, it's reasonable to assume he had exceptional pride for them. He would never shed much of a tear at the death of, well, literally anyone else. But he himself admitted to his pride for his race being essentially stepped on by Freeza and he himself being humiliated by his forced servitude, and that it tortured and disgusted him greatly. Regardless of his position, he was a relatively low level warrior compared to the Ginyu Force, Dodoria, and Zarbon. Not even second rank, forced into servitude, and his entire race either in the same boat or killed off, all by one man? Yeah, he had every right to hold a grudge against Freeza. After his humiliating and utterly painful death at his hands, it would actually be dramatically appropriate for Vegeta to get to put him down once and for all. He's the one with the most history.
ZazamPow wrote:You're right. So Vegeta is actually the one who wronged Freeza, betraying and plotting to murder him for no reason. What an absolute shithead, even after his arc ends he's still proving himself the most evil guy around.
I honestly can't tell if you're joking. If you are, that's actually quite funny. If you're not...
... Freeza was a megalomaniacal tyrant who slaughtered and enslaved countless people, including Vegeta's race. While there might not have been any canon material present to use as an example of outright abuse toward him, Freeza enslaved, then subsequently destroyed, his entire race of people, and his home planet. Regardless of his lack of emotion during the Bardock special (of which, I might add, is suspect in terms of canonicity), he openly wept over it in front of Son Goku. It hurt him deep inside, and there's no justifying Freeza's actions.
Although, to be completely fair, they were all a bunch of evil, terrible assholes. But Freeza still had it coming regardless.
For my own defense, yes I WAS joking
(KaiserNeko is talking to me <3)
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
ZazamPow wrote:*snip*
You're right. So Vegeta is actually the one who wronged Freeza, betraying and plotting to murder him for no reason. What an absolute shithead, even after his arc ends he's still proving himself the most evil guy around.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:>Heavily implied in filler
>Filler
It's filler bruh. In-canon doesn't indicate this. In-canon indicates Freeza actually treated him comparatively well, especially for a "dirty Saiyan". It's why the others were so bitter toward him.
I mean you don't think he was given a rank second only to Dodoria and Zarbon because Freeza hated him or wanted to abuse him, do you? And, as stated, Vegeta felt almost nothing for his people and their fate. He viewed their betrayal and Freeza's lie to be a personal slight.
Let's take a few steps back, actually.
Remember that Vegeta was the prince of his entire race. While he might not have felt much affection for his kin, it's reasonable to assume he had exceptional pride for them. He would never shed much of a tear at the death of, well, literally anyone else. But he himself admitted to his pride for his race being essentially stepped on by Freeza and he himself being humiliated by his forced servitude, and that it tortured and disgusted him greatly. Regardless of his position, he was a relatively low level warrior compared to the Ginyu Force, Dodoria, and Zarbon. Not even second rank, forced into servitude, and his entire race either in the same boat or killed off, all by one man? Yeah, he had every right to hold a grudge against Freeza. After his humiliating and utterly painful death at his hands, it would actually be dramatically appropriate for Vegeta to get to put him down once and for all. He's the one with the most history.
I'm not saying the guy wasn't a scumbag. Simply that the idea Vegeta was being trampled on and mistreated to a horrific degree isn't the case, which it's not. He had his pride hurt, and I'm sure he didn't enjoy being under anyone, hated it in fact, but the idea that he was abused to the degree people like to imply is overstated by quite a bit.
As for Vegeta "putting him down", can't necessarily say I agree or disagree. But again, what troubles me are rather the other reasons given as to why, as if he were entitled simply because he "hasn't gotten to shine".
I still strongly maintain that I don't see any feasible means by which either he or Goku could win this on their own though.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
JulieYBM wrote:One asshole betrays another? Sounds like the making of good television!
Be sure to shock on popcorn.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
SSJGFrieza wrote:Are Goku fans still scared that someone other than him will be the hero for once?
Vegeta's beating Freeza, it's obvious.
Because predicting Toriyama has been so easily done before. Yeah-no, I'm going to reserve predictions and simply see the film for myself first-hand. Were you able to predict Goku losing against Beerus? Were you able to predict Freeza coming back? Were you able to predict Jaco being in this movie? No? Then if something is, "obvious based on trailers", then I'm fairly certain it's not true. Toriyama is going to shock all of us with an ending we couldn't possibly predict.
SSJGFrieza wrote:Are Goku fans still scared that someone other than him will be the hero for once?
Vegeta's beating Freeza, it's obvious.
I can't speak for Goku fans.
I can speak from my own POV, which is that Vegeta simply powering up to beat Freeza who just curbstomped Goku makes absolutely no sense, nor does Goku simply getting back up, charging in and winning.
I really do think they're going to have to work together on this one. Whomever lands the final blow doesn't bother me much, it's about how they get there.
Still holding out for my Krillin Stealth Kienzan Kill tbh.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
As someone for who Gokû is one of her favorites, I can say I'm not invested on if he is or isn't the one to land the final blow.
All I want from him is a continuation of what Toriyama did with him in BOG; continue having Gokû's "Gokûness" set to maximum, continue the "desu", continue the specialty outfits (lil blue sweatsuit I miss you!), and continue Gokû's magenta-haired ssjg mode.
Gokû and Vegeta teamwork is what I think will ultimately be what takes down Freeza.
FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:Because predicting Toriyama has been so easily done before.
Toriyama isn't the one marketing the movie,it's Toie and they've made it obvious that he's going to have the final battle with him.
Who knows if he'll kill him but I think it's safe to say he'll be the one who defeats him but personally I think Freeza should die at the end cause if he doesn't then chances are he'll end up killed with one shot in the next movie and he deserves better then that.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:>Heavily implied in filler
>Filler
It's filler bruh. In-canon doesn't indicate this. In-canon indicates Freeza actually treated him comparatively well, especially for a "dirty Saiyan". It's why the others were so bitter toward him.
I mean you don't think he was given a rank second only to Dodoria and Zarbon because Freeza hated him or wanted to abuse him, do you? And, as stated, Vegeta felt almost nothing for his people and their fate. He viewed their betrayal and Freeza's lie to be a personal slight.
Let's take a few steps back, actually.
Remember that Vegeta was the prince of his entire race. While he might not have felt much affection for his kin, it's reasonable to assume he had exceptional pride for them. He would never shed much of a tear at the death of, well, literally anyone else. But he himself admitted to his pride for his race being essentially stepped on by Freeza and he himself being humiliated by his forced servitude, and that it tortured and disgusted him greatly. Regardless of his position, he was a relatively low level warrior compared to the Ginyu Force, Dodoria, and Zarbon. Not even second rank, forced into servitude, and his entire race either in the same boat or killed off, all by one man? Yeah, he had every right to hold a grudge against Freeza. After his humiliating and utterly painful death at his hands, it would actually be dramatically appropriate for Vegeta to get to put him down once and for all. He's the one with the most history.
ZazamPow wrote:You're right. So Vegeta is actually the one who wronged Freeza, betraying and plotting to murder him for no reason. What an absolute shithead, even after his arc ends he's still proving himself the most evil guy around.
I honestly can't tell if you're joking. If you are, that's actually quite funny. If you're not...
... Freeza was a megalomaniacal tyrant who slaughtered and enslaved countless people, including Vegeta's race. While there might not have been any canon material present to use as an example of outright abuse toward him, Freeza enslaved, then subsequently destroyed, his entire race of people, and his home planet. Regardless of his lack of emotion during the Bardock special (of which, I might add, is suspect in terms of canonicity), he openly wept over it in front of Son Goku. It hurt him deep inside, and there's no justifying Freeza's actions.
Although, to be completely fair, they were all a bunch of evil, terrible assholes. But Freeza still had it coming regardless.
It would kind of be interesting for Freeza to point out the hypocrisy in Vegeta playing the good guy after all the people he has killed. Although he is a good guy now, he was as bad as Freeza was in his actions before. Who is he really to be the good guy? The interesting angle would be if Vegeta replied that maybe they could both go back to Hell together... or something... that'd be pretty awesome haha.
You know I'm suddenly going into fan-fic mode for no reason because it just popped into my head... but, the "legendary" super saiyan was never really described in detail. Vegeta went on and on about it but he didn't know that it had the golden aura or anything. It would be interesting if that burst of potential power Vegeta had when Bulma got hurt in BOG was the actual power of a super saiyan and he ended up actually becoming the real legendary super saiyan that he went on and on about. This would retcon super saiyans though and piss of just about everyone however. But I bet nobody would see that coming! It would make more sense too since SSJ God does not utilize the golden aura power or anything... yet it's referred to as a Super Saiyan-God. All other "super saiyans" are known that way just out of the assumption by the group that that's what they are. But Beerus heard this legend of a SSJ God which lends to the possibility that a normal SSJ would just be a very powerful saiyan transformation without the golden hair.
Am I the only that's wondering how big of a role Jaco will play in this film? Part of me is thinking that he's simply in there as fan-service, but it seems interesting that they kept his appearance in the film under wraps for so long. What are the chances that he'll be an integral part of the story?
SSJGFrieza wrote:Are Goku fans still scared that someone other than him will be the hero for once?
Well, the guy has been the main character for over 30 years. And in-universe, he has the tendency to get the job done. Even Vegeta considers him #1. It's logical to expect things to stay that way.
Anything else would be surprising and require a plausible explanation. Like the time that Gohan defeated Cell.
SaiyaJedi wrote:
Vegeta was really good this time, too...!! Although it's in a completely different way from the last movie."
"In a way, it's the exact opposite of the last movie, but it was whole-heartedly 'cool'.
But that "I think you could even say that, including past works [i.e., the 1990s Z films], this outing has [Vegeta's] biggest role out of all the Dragon Ball Z movies!"
More evidence that says Toriyama wasn't just talking when he said he wanted Vegeta to be the hero of the movie.
TripleRach wrote:
In-universe, he has the tendency to get the job done.
He lost to Raditz and Vegeta.
He lost to Captain Ginyu.
He lost to #19 and Cell.
He couldn't fight Super Buu and lost to Kid Buu.
He lost to Beerus twice.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
SaiyaJedi wrote:Vegeta was really good this time, too...!! Although it's in a completely different way from the last movie."
"In a way, it's the exact opposite of the last movie, but it was whole-heartedly 'cool'.
But that "I think you could even say that, including past works [i.e., the 1990s Z films], this outing has [Vegeta's] biggest role out of all the Dragon Ball Z movies!"
What do they mean with 'in a completely different way'? "
"Completely opposite from the last movie"....see, this makes me think Vegeta won't just defeat Freeza and be done with it. Maybe he will take on the double agent role.
Or maybe he just won't sing and dance in this one.
Looking forward to Bulma and Beerus' conversation, I wonder what that could be about that's so hilarious.
KAiWAi wrote:Freeza by Toriyama, 26 years later.
I just made this montage:
Damn what the hell happened. That quality plummet....yikes.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
" 
