Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Vegitofaxx wrote:Do you honestly think that was intended foreshadowing?
In anime it was. Because the robot clearly detected Goku being an alien hence from that moment it was established in anime that Goku was an alien without anyone actually saying that, which was revealed by Raditz only in the beginning of Z.
Actually, it's just an easter-egg reference to the movie Alien. (The text isn't on screen for very long, and besides, the intended audience doesn't know that much English.)
And anyway, we have the author's own word that he hadn't thought that far ahead yet at that point in the story. Oolong briefly considers that he might be an alien in Chapter 23, but that was just a throwaway gag.
As a general rule, if you see "foreshadowing" in a Toriyama work, it's only that way by accident. The author just tends to stumble onto a lot of happy accidents.
Co-translator, Man-in-Japan, and Julian #1 at Kanzenshuu
最近、あんまし投稿してないねんけど、見てんで。いっつも見てる。
BlackCatScott wrote:It's amazing how people can come to an absolute conclusion on a film by reading a short summary from one or two people, without seeing for themselves how it plays out. Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Yeah, but isn't that part of Dragon Ball's magic?
Here lies a modified Doctor Who qoute. It was killed too early by the moderators. R.I.P. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steam: The Muncher of Da Biscuits.
PSN: Joeythekiller123
Playing XenoVerse on Pc. BP = 10370. Primary CaC: Tapaha. Always ready for an invite ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jackass,#1 Hellsing fan, Translator for the Danish version of DBM(always two pages ahead of you), Chilling on da forums
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
Vegitofaxx wrote:Do you honestly think that was intended foreshadowing?
In anime it was. Because the robot clearly detected Goku being an alien hence from that moment it was established in anime that Goku was an alien without anyone actually saying that, which was revealed by Raditz only in the beginning of Z.
Actually, it's just a reference to the movie Alien.
And anyway, we have the author's own word that he hadn't thought that far ahead yet at that point in the story. Oolong briefly considers that he might be an alien in Chapter 23, but that was just a throwaway gag.
As a general rule, if you see "foreshadowing" in a Toriyama work, it's only that way by accident. The author just tends to stumble onto a lot of happy accidents.
Okay, I didn't know that much.
So he didn't even decide it in the time when he was writing the first half? Maybe Toei did though. I am not sure about it.
Which actually amazes me even now A lot of things which I thought were foreshadowed before just happened to be a nice coincidence
And hello! Can you share your experiences about the movie?
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
BlackCatScott wrote:It's amazing how people can come to an absolute conclusion on a film by reading a short summary from one or two people, without seeing for themselves how it plays out. Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Yeah, but isn't that part of Dragon Ball's magic?
Yeah, it's part of Dragon Ball's dark magic.
Basaku wrote:
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
And yet Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan is considered one of the best films in the franchise.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
Yeah, but as you can see here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=29737 Not all fans agree on what good action is. And not all agree on what a good DB plot is. Some love what BOG did, and some hate it. Some prefer dark DB without humor, and some prefer light heartet DB with a lot of humor. You can't put everyone in the same box.
Here lies a modified Doctor Who qoute. It was killed too early by the moderators. R.I.P. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steam: The Muncher of Da Biscuits.
PSN: Joeythekiller123
Playing XenoVerse on Pc. BP = 10370. Primary CaC: Tapaha. Always ready for an invite ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jackass,#1 Hellsing fan, Translator for the Danish version of DBM(always two pages ahead of you), Chilling on da forums
Doctor. wrote:You don't have to have seen the film to say you're disappointed with it or think the movie's premise and plot is garbage or not. Sure it's gonna be enjoyable, all Dragon Ball material is, but that doesn't mean we can't say it's bad from all the info we've heard so far.
You can say as much as you want about what it sounds like. You can say you think it sounds worse than Battle of Gods. However, you absolutely cannot sit there and state adamantly that the film overall is worse or better because you have not experienced it yet.
Reading someone's plot summary is not the same as experiencing the story as it was intended to be told. Man, can you imagine reading a plot summary of The Hobbit and deciding you didn't need to read the book now because you'd already adamantly formed your opinion on it?!
I'm apprehensive about the film. I am genuinely worried about the lack of enticing narrative, but I am not sat here passing off the film, because I am not silly enough to believe anything I say is at all valid at this point.
You also don't need to watch the film yourself to at least form some opinion on it based on the information you received prior to watching it. You don't need to play Sonic 06 to know it's garbage. Sure you might change your opinion if you play it, but chances are you won't. It's my judgement that this film feels like filler and is a waste of potential and no matter how good the interactions between the characters are, no matter how well done the animation is and no matter how fantastic the voice acting is, that first aspect will remain unchanged.
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
Yeah, but as you can see here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=29737 Not all fans agree on what good action is. And not all agree on what a good DB plot is. Some love what BOG did, and some hate it. Some prefer dark DB without humor, and some prefer light heartet DB with a lot of humor. You can't put everyone in the same box.
Bill Cosby said it the best:
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
If you watch Dragon Ball expecting serious plot and character development, you're going to have a bad time. This movie follows the same basic formula as the series, at least for the Z portion, which is train > fight > loose > train > new transformation > fight > almost loose again > genki dama/deus ex machina
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
Yeah, but as you can see here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=29737 Not all fans agree on what good action is. And not all agree on what a good DB plot is. Some love what BOG did, and some hate it. Some prefer dark DB without humor, and some prefer light heartet DB with a lot of humor. You can't put everyone in the same box.
I am in the box man, I like it all! Seriously, I just don't understand that but it's all part of the cultural differences.
DBZ was marketed in US as hardcore show, but it has a lot more and that's why I enjoyed BoG. It gave me the humor and sillyness of the source material + an epic fight.
It had everything Dragon Ball in it.
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
Everyone seems to have very different ideas of what constitutes 'good'.
That said, 99% sure folks in here would be a ton less nitpicky if only one certain detail or another had been changed.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
If you watch Dragon Ball expecting serious plot and character development, you're going to have a bad time. This movie follows the same basic formula as the series, at least for the Z portion, which is train > fight > loose > train > new transformation > fight > almost loose again > genki dama/deus ex machina
But Vegeta, Piccolo, Tien. Even Gohan himself had a lot of character development. This time they could do a lot with Beerus... But as I understand from Kei's comment, they didn't. I still hope that they'll develop/reveal more about Whis in the next movie if there ever is one.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
Lord Beerus wrote:And yet Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan is considered one of the best films in the franchise.
I thought Wrath of Dragon was. A lot of people also like Battle of Gods. And I think Fusion Reborn is pretty popular as well.
The first Broly movie is held in really high regard among the fandom.
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Basaku wrote:
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
If you watch Dragon Ball expecting serious plot and character development, you're going to have a bad time. This movie follows the same basic formula as the series, at least for the Z portion, which is train > fight > loose > train > new transformation > fight > almost loose again > genki dama/deus ex machina
Expect the serious itself doesn't really have a formula of its own to follow.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
SaiyanBaller22 wrote:Hey Kei17! Only thing I'm curious right now is if Lord Beerus and Freeza exchange words with eachother?! Thanks that would be all
Freeza notices Beerus and calls him Beerus-sama with a surprised and scared face, but he gives Beerus some mouth and shows a confident attitude.
So they met before after all... Then why Beerus just didn't kill him with his own hands? Wasn't it exactly what he said in BoG? I quote it: "He's so self-important. The next time I see him, I think I might destroy him, too."
Beerus looks ike a big liar now.
Maybe because he wasnt that serious (only if he felt like it), maybe he remembered something that happened between them that he didnt like?
and why interfere when there are people able to control him and willing to protect their planet?
Sleeping until the tournament is over.
Spoiler:
Araki wrote:
These days people start throwing the words "filler" and "silce of life" everytime characters aren't punching each other. No matter if something is moving the plot or there's character exposition.
Imagine if DB started these days. It would go like this:
"hey, what's happening in Dragon Ball today?"
"Goku wants Mutenroshi to train him, so he's bringing him some chicks now."
"oh i see, just slice of life filler then. skippable. "
SansrivaaL wrote:-Frieza revived ever since DB and DBZ anime was released Freeza had always been one of the best arch enemy the franchise had (at least for me)
Was beaten like some kind of a joke by a single Kamehameha.
Man, why is everyone acting like he went back and nuked a fresh Freeza? A weakened, desperate Freeza gets taken down before he can destroy the planet and suddenly we talk like they made him fodder.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
BlackCatScott wrote:Personally I think the Dragon Ball fanbase is very hard to please because everyone seems to want something different from the content.
Good plot, good action, some good comedy, good character developement, good designs. Not that hard to figure out what DB fans want.
We kinda got all of that for FnF, its in 3D Imax and as far as I can tell from the trailer the animation/designs are sick.
Char development both Goku and Vegeta especially Goku, as from what I can tell from the spoilers he gets to live with the fact that he cant protect the earth and that Whis is right, his over confidence and softness is a weakness.
Good comedy, dont know yet but from what I hear especially the beerus and bulma convo it seems it wont have a problem with comedy at least for me and that Goku Vegeta holding hands stuff seems like a gag for some reason cant wait for that.
Good action.... its dragon ball! need I say more? we get too see Tien,M.Roshi,Krillin,Gohan,Piccolo gets to fend off 1000 army grunts and Goku/Vegeta fighting Golden Frieza.
About the plot I dont know yet, it seems like an open ending with lots of possibilities for a future film.
But yes to each of their own I guess, it seems I'm just easy to please when it comes to dragon ball
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
If you watch Dragon Ball expecting serious plot and character development, you're going to have a bad time.
Nobody's talking Oscar drama stories and characterization. But action shows require strong plotting and character arcs to become more than just action romps, early DBZ delivered that and is the reason this show got as huge as it did. Case in point - is Buu saga the most popular? Nope. It's Saiyan/Namek/Android/Cell arcs, with strongest plot, heaviest character arcs, biggest lore dumps and world building etc.
Beerus-sama wrote:
Maybe because he wasnt that serious (only if he felt like it), maybe he remembered something that happened between them that he didnt like?
and why interfere when there are people able to control him and willing to protect their planet?
Maybe he asked Goku and Vegeta to kill Frieza in his place? Maybe he wanted to test them, or to see how people who he began to respect may defeat the person he dislikes?
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
Mystic Tien wrote:But Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan. Even Gohan himself had a lot of character development. This time they could do a lot with Beerus... But as I understand from Kei's comment, they didn't. I still hope that they'll develop/reveal more about Whis in the next movie if there ever is one.
They had some development, mostly Vegeta and Piccolo, but compared to plot and development in serious film or literature, we may as well say that it's non existent. I think the nostalgic factor blinds people from seeing the flaws of the original Dragon Ball Z*, and they only notice it when someting new comes out. Z is nothing more than a series of battles and training sessions with some humor mixed in, that's it.
*It's not really a flaw though, because it's a shonen manga, not Shakespeare, so it isn't really supposed to have serious plot and character development.
Last edited by UpFromTheSkies on Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe Toei did though. I am not sure about it.
