Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

hleV · Post by **hleV** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:16 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
hleV wrote: Why would it remained ruined when you know it never really happened according to the original author? It's just made up. There's only what Vegeta said about his transformation after showing up for the androids.
Because I don't view the anime as some distinct entity to be ignored whenever contemplating the franchise? Because I prefer the anime to the manga? I'm not really sure what the point of your question is.

The point of my question was to figure out why would something unimportant, done just to fill in, coming not from the actual author and not representing how it actually happened matter to you.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:18 pm

hleV wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
hleV wrote: Why would it remained ruined when you know it never really happened according to the original author? It's just made up. There's only what Vegeta said about his transformation after showing up for the androids.
Because I don't view the anime as some distinct entity to be ignored whenever contemplating the franchise? Because I prefer the anime to the manga? I'm not really sure what the point of your question is.
The point of my question was to figure out why would something unimportant, done just to fill in, coming not from the actual author and not representing how it actually happened matter to you.

Because that's how it was depicted in the franchise as I first saw it. I don't particularly care if the author didn't do it to start with. And as far as I'm concerned, Toriyama's portrayal of that scene wasn't much better.

hleV · Post by **hleV** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:38 pm

New information usually tends to cause elaboration, that's why I'm curious why would you find the first impression of it so important that figuring out it's a filler and haven't actually happened has no meaning.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:39 pm

hleV wrote:New information usually tends to cause elaboration, that's why I'm curious why would you find the first impression of it so important that figuring out it's a filler and haven't actually happened has no meaning.

Except it did happen. I watched it happen. That was enough for me.

hleV · Post by **hleV** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:41 pm

Yeah I suppose it may be hard for some to comprehend that the things they saw actually did not happen.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:45 pm

hleV wrote:Yeah I suppose it may be hard for some to comprehend that the things they saw actually did not happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEB1PLC3KZA
I guess I made this up then.

hleV · Post by **hleV** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:03 pm

It's in the anime, yes, but it did not actually happen in the story. It's fake. It's a what-if. Whatever. It did not actually happen. Piccolo has 4 fingers.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:05 pm

hleV wrote:It's in the anime, yes, but it did not actually happen in the story. It's fake. It's a what-if. Whatever. It did not actually happen. Piccolo has 4 fingers.

And where in any of this have I said I was referring to the manga?

Edit: Nevermind. I've made my point, in this is all incredibly off-topic. I'm done here.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:31 pm

This is all getting away from the point I was trying to make, much less the point of the thread...but you know what, hLev, let's take a little closer look at what you're decrying as 'didn't happen'. I just so happen to have VizBig 5 right in front of me, and that features Vegeta's first transformation into a Super Saiyan.

Vegeta: "I endured a training from hell. Then I ran into a wall. My own limits. In the rage I felt towards myself awoke...into a Super Saiyan!!!"

Now, there could be something lost in translation here between the original Japanese and what Viz has here, I admit...but just going by what I have here? Nothing there suggests that that scene couldn't have still happened in the manga, just unseen. That 'rage towards myself' bit could be talking about exactly what the anime shows...so the two are not in-compatible. So if someone wants to still have it happen, it can happen. Easily. Without even having to do any jumping around in logic like one would have to do to try and place the movies in the main timeline.

Of course that's also missing the part that Kamiccolo points out which is also perfectly valid - if one doesn't care that much about one invalidating the other and just enjoys what they enjoy, then there's nothing wrong with that outlook either, no matter how much you try to spin the "it didn't happen grrr" wheel.

hleV · Post by **hleV** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:35 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:Nothing there suggests that that scene couldn't have still happened in the manga, just unseen.

The fact that Toriyama isn't Toei proves that the scene would've been different. And since we do not know how it happened according to Toriyama (besides what we know from Vegeta's speech), there's little reason to compare a filler to it.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:39 pm

hleV wrote:
Gyt Kaliba wrote:Nothing there suggests that that scene couldn't have still happened in the manga, just unseen.
The fact that Toriyama isn't Toei proves that the scene would've been different. And since we do not know how it happened according to Toriyama (besides what we know from Vegeta's speech), there's little reason to compare a filler to it.

Not really, especially considering a fair amount of filler - not this bit, that I'm aware of at least, but things such as baseball playing Yamcha - were actually suggested by Toriyama. So something being filler does not automatically mean that it cannot have happened in the manga. If there's nothing there to suggest that it didn't, it's just as rational to think that maybe it did as it is to think that it didn't.

hleV · Post by **hleV** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:53 pm

What Toriyama suggested is what Toriyama suggested. The facts suggested by Toriyama themselves may have happened in the story, but exactly the same as in the filler? No. Same goes to BOG and upcoming ROF, just to a lesser extent, as it directly follows the script instead of a suggestion that needs expanding on.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:01 pm

So basically what you're trying to say is that things in filler or anything else that's not actually in the manga, might have actually happened, but just not exactly as shown in those non-manga versions of them? Because you know what? That's a valid outlook. It really is. Hell, that's the way that I generally like to look at EVERYTHING in the franchise, barring an extremely few examples: they happen where they happen and likely could have happened everywhere, just with a few changes.

Here's the thing though - that's just one outlook. Just taking things exactly as they're shown is another one, and it's just as valid.

i'mfuckingevil · Post by **i'mfuckingevil** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:08 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:While I agree that I don't want to see a huge burst of new forms again (and I doubt we will since Toriyama seems to be kind of moving away from transformations now), let's be honest - Super Saiyan stopped being this super amazing thing almost immediately after it was introduced. Sure, Trunks showing up as one was an amazing twist (hell, that's what got me into the series), but there was only supposed to be one Super Saiyan every 1,000 or so years...so that kind of went out the window. You could hand wave it as him being the only one in his time period to have it...until we find out that Gohan had it too, as did Vegeta, and as do both of their main timeline counterparts. And then they all find forms beyond that. And Gohan takes it even further beyond that. And then two seven year old kids get it with no effort. And then another form beyond even that is discovered...

Super Saiyan was already trampled to death as a concept in the series itself, let's not forget that.

maybe so, but Akira Toriyama knew that an element to get everyone riled up for a new DBZ movie would be, a new SSJ transformation because that's the most popular thing about the entire franchise. In the beginning of DBZ, humans became irrelevant and by the middle of it, Piccolo the only other alien became irrelevant and by the Buu saga only saiyans and saiyan hybrids were strong enough to fight the threats to earth and the universe.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:13 pm

i'mfuckingevil wrote:maybe so, but Akira Toriyama knew that an element to get everyone riled up for a new DBZ movie would be, a new SSJ transformation because that's the most popular thing about the entire franchise. In the beginning of DBZ, humans became irrelevant and by the middle of it, Piccolo the only other alien became irrelevant and by the Buu saga only saiyans and saiyan hybrids were strong enough to fight the threats to earth and the universe.

I dunno about that, actually. Don't forget that 'Super Saiyan God' was one of the two things (along with 'God of Destruction') that were already set in stone, as elements, prior to Toriyama coming on board. So there's a chance that if Toriyama had been doing the story from the very beginning, 'Super Saiyan God' wouldn't even be a form at all, but rather just something that gave Goku 'god ki', and we may have seen him fighting in his natural state for a lot more of BoG too.

As for the other part, that, at least for me, is one of the worst things about the franchise, and how quickly it starts to shove aside these other characters once it gets to the 'Z' era of material.

Basaku · Post by **Basaku** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:35 pm

i'mfuckingevil wrote: maybe so, but Akira Toriyama knew that an element to get everyone riled up for a new DBZ movie would be, a new SSJ transformation because that's the most popular thing about the entire franchise.

Which begs the question why the actual design is so underwhelming. New kick-ass look is the #1 thing people are excited about regarding new transformations. Golden SSJ4 fakes is what everyone wanted, not normal Goku with recolored hair

Post by **TheDevilsCorpse** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:37 pm

No not everyone. I'm so happy with what we got and would have absolutely hated yellow monkey-man god. I'm extremely thankful for Toriyama's tastes.

Basaku · Post by **Basaku** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:40 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:No not everyone. I'm so happy with what we got and would have absolutely hated yellow monkey-man god.

Golden monkey-man works way better for "SS God" concept. It incorporates characteristics of a Saiyan in every form and literally looks like the 'pinnacle' of controlled power one could achieve, like a God.

Post by **TheDevilsCorpse** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:43 pm

No. It would have looked like SS4 Goku traveled back in time and forgot to get out of the pool before the chlorine bleached him.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:44 pm

I like Super Saiyan God the way it is. Nobody would expect a god to be small and unassuming with magenta-colored hair.

Fukkatsu no F will be good just like Kami to Kami was if only because Toriyama no longer writes Vegeta as an idiot simply to move the plot along.

Kanzenshuu

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