Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

[hleV]

I can't say I quite agree with you there. To me when Vegeta was first introduced he never really had anyone he cared about. Nappa was expendable and his dad was well... there I guess.... well probably not.. The Saiyans were a group of people who lived to fight and thus most never really took the time to form any families of the sort. For Vegeta, being of an extremely high class heritage this is only exemplified. This is a guy who was alone for most of his life in an environment where the strong survive and the weak perish (cough cough Raditz). But the thing is, after a long time on Earth where he only originally chose to stay on because it benefited him, he found himself caring for his wife/lover/servant woman Bulma and his son Trunks. Sure he's a selfish prick and no doubt he's always going to be a selfish prick because that's who he is. But the thing is he now cares for some of the people around him even if he doesn't want to accept it. Eventually he's influence by the people around him and mellows out a bit.

Evil people also tend to care for their family/people close to them.

[Attitudefan]

I just see the argument as fallacious if he can't create a bond with some one if and only if Saiyans can make human like bonds. If yes, then the time he spent with Nappa and Raditz alone should have created a bond between them, and it did but it wasn't received Ball by none other than, yep, Vegeta. That's where I see his books with the Earth folk no different to him than everyone else he had it with. Lest we forget that Vegeta spent 20 some odd years with Raditz, Nappa, and Freeza. Even Freeza, of all people, felt saddened and betrayed by Vegeta's double cross. Vegeta is not a friendly guy, nor a guy I'd have a beer with. He'd probably try to get me in a bar fight just to see me suffer, and then later he could get the glory.

[dae428]

I just see the argument as fallacious if he can't create a bond with some one if and only if Saiyans can make human like bonds. If yes, then the time he spent with Nappa and Raditz alone should have created a bond between them, and it did but it wasn't received Ball by none other than, yep, Vegeta. That's where I see his books with the Earth folk no different to him than everyone else he had it with. Lest we forget that Vegeta spent 20 some odd years with Raditz, Nappa, and Freeza. Even Freeza, of all people, felt saddened and betrayed by Vegeta's double cross. Vegeta is not a friendly guy, nor a guy I'd have a beer with. He'd probably try to get me in a bar fight just to see me suffer, and then later he could get the glory.

Again the way I see it, the Saiyans were not really the kind of people to form close bonds. Vegeta never saw Nappa as anything more than a disposable subordinate as with Nappa. Since Toriyama generally never really shows relationship interactions between characters in depth I can't really make the best argument as to why he eventually came to care for Bulma and Trunks, but the fact is he eventually does show signs of caring for them even if they are selfish. When Vegeta blew himself up in order to stop Majin Boo he explicitly thought of Bulma, Trunks, and even Kakarott. He even gave his son a hug for the first time to show he really cared for him.

Also I wouldn't really say Freeza was saddened by Vegeta's betrayal. I'd say he was just really, really, really, angry.

hleV-- Didn't Vegeta get revived by the dragon balls when he and Goku were fighting against Kid Boo? Wouldn't that mean he's a good guy now?

[i'mfuckingevil]

Also, please please stop criticizing BOG (and the people who like it) just because it happened to not appeal to you.

Criticizing others for their opinions is one thing, but he should be free to criticize BOG all he wants.

[hleV]

Back in the series, Vegeta spent 7 years with his family and still went on a rampage. Sure, the people he unleashed himself on didn't really matter to him as opposed to him defending his family in BOG, but even against Fat Boo he remained badass in his and Trunks' scene and has never shown to act as some clown.

Family is family, it's different from subordinates from the same planet and race. Bulma kindly provided Vegeta with a place to live in, means of advanced training, an offspring. Naturally he would grow to care for them in a way that it would suck if they died. I mean... it's not like Vegeta gives a fuck if it's Bulma's birthday and he should attend it. And that's in BOG! He'd rather selfishly stick to what he does daily, because, again, he still cares about himself more than the others, and it only sucks if there's a threat to his family's lives.

After the 2nd time I watched BOG some time ago I somewhat figured that there is some explainable Vegeta-like reason for what he's done. I just wholeheartedly disagree with how it was executed, how he acted about Beerus, etc. He was not being a man I was used to in the series.

Also the idea that SSG can only be formed with the help of "good" Saiyans and that it makes Vegeta "good" is ridiculous. Good by DB standarts? Perhaps. Vegeta is not good to anyone else but his family, and even that "goodness" is questionable. Back in the Boo arc he was about to go to Hell but was preserved because he has the ability and motivation to help save the universe. That doesn't translate to "good" (subjective, but in most cases it's not) by our real life standarts. I'm not suddenly a good person for taking out the trash if I myself benefit from that. Vegeta was revived by Porunga because he received the status of "able to help" by Enma Daio and lived up to that.

[dae428]

Back in the series, Vegeta spent 7 years with his family and still went on a rampage. Sure, the people he unleashed himself on didn't really matter to him as opposed to him defending his family in BOG, but even against Fat Boo he remained badass in his and Trunks' scene and has never shown to act as some clown.

Family is family, it's different from subordinates from the same planet and race. Bulma kindly provided Vegeta with a place to live in, means of advanced training, an offspring. Naturally he would grow to care for them in a way that it would suck if they died. I mean... it's not like Vegeta gives a fuck if it's Bulma's birthday and he should attend it. And that's in BOG! He'd rather selfishly stick to what he does daily, because, again, he still cares about himself more than the others, and it only sucks if there's a threat to his family's lives.

After the 2nd time I watched BOG some time ago I somewhat figured that there is some explainable Vegeta-like reason for what he's done. I just wholeheartedly disagree with how it was executed, how he acted about Beerus, etc. He was not being a man I was used to in the series.

Also the idea that SSG can only be formed with the help of "good" Saiyans is ridiculous. Vegeta is not good to anyone else but his family, and even that "goodness" is questionable. Back in the Boo arc he was about to go to Hell but was preserved because he has the ability and motivation to help save the universe. That doesn't translate to "good" (subjective, but in most cases it's not) by our real life standarts. I'm not suddenly a good person for taking out the trash if I myself benefit from that. Vegeta was revived by Porunga because he received the status of "able to help" by Enma Daio and lived up to that.

Well he was kind of going through a mid-life evil-denial crisis as far as I can see it... Here's how I see it. Vegeta was a selfish bad guy and he relished the idea of being superior to everyone else hence why he wanted to collect the dragon balls. But after a while he found himself being constantly humbled by low level Saiyans and artificial humans. For him it was a humiliating experience. Eventually 7 years would pass and he found himself with a family. He realized that he now had people he cared about and that he no longer really cared that he was the best. But a part of him couldn't accept that. He became frustrated that he wasn't who he was before and thus he clung onto the bit of evil that remained in him. When he found out about Babidi and his magical M powers, he then gladly become allowed himself to fall under the influence of Babidi because he believed it would bring him back to who he was before, but the thing is, it didn't. He had changed bit by bit... While he was still evil he couldn't get rid of the fact that he was a changed man. He had people he cared about. So he sacrificed himself in an attempt to make up for his mistakes. Eventually when he came back on Earth, he was finally able to... let it go and fully embrace who he is and the people around him. Vegeta is a good guy now in that he cares about the people around him and probably wouldn't kill for pleasure. Sure he's still very selfish, but so is Goku. If it were Chichi's birthday, I really doubt Goku would care.

I do understand where you're coming from hleV but I just don't see it as you do. In the case of the bingo scene he was trying to ensure that what he had accepted to care for was not in jeopardy, so he swallowed his pride and tried to make Beerus forget about destroying the world. Note that after he does the dance he does grimace at himself in frustration of what he had done.

Also I'm not going to deny that BOG was a perfect movie. The ritual with the Saiyans holding hands was a bit stupid in my opinion and really corny. The animation was a bit odd in some instances. There were some odd plot holes regarding ages. The extended cut is too long and the theatrical cut is too short. Several characters didn't get nearly as much screen time as I would have liked. Vegeta's super power up while showing some character development was pointless and did what I generally hate, which is, "I'm angry power lever times a thousand!" The first fight scenes were really boring because they were stupidly one sided and not long enough. But despite these faults I still liked the movie very much and I consider it my all time Dragon Ball Z favorite.

[hleV]

Thing is, Vegeta is willing to do evil things if it is beneficial to him.

[rereboy]

Also, please please stop criticizing BOG (and the people who like it) just because it happened to not appeal to you.

Criticizing others for their opinions is one thing, but he should be free to criticize BOG all he wants.

As its perfectly clear from my posts, I was merely turning his own words back on him just so he could see how they don't make sense.

[dae428]

Thing is, Vegeta is willing to do evil things if it is beneficial to him.

I guess... You'll have to define what you necessarily mean as evil for me to really get it though. I can't really see EoZ Vegeta killing anyone if they annoy him. I feel that at most he'd just beat them up. Anyways, I feel that we've been pretty off-topic with this. Maybe it would be better if this was discussed in a new topic?

[Attitudefan]

Thing is, Vegeta is willing to do evil things if it is beneficial to him.

Exactly. For example, in BOG, Vegeta only cares since it really disrupts his life. Even the thing with Bulma, it's not that he cares for her safety, it's more of an ego thing; in other words, can he be more of a man than the provoker. If Beerus offered something Vegeta just couldn't refuse, and it was evil, mean, dirty, and nasty, and Vegeta could do it knowing that he could stop the likes of Goku and friends, he WOULD DO IT. No question about it.

If Goku weren't around, and he had such an opportunity, he'd take it. It didn't happen in the time of peace since nothing was offered to him, thus, it was more rewarding for him to stay with Bulma where he is clothed, fed, has a place to train etc. If he was offered something like what Majin magic gave him, a new level of power for example but had to murder everyone on earth to attain it, he would take it and leave. He stayed with Freeza because it benefitted him, I think Vegeta even says that, and when given the chance, he took the high road (and believed he was a SSJ strong enough to kill Freeza and wander the universe as the most powerful being; JUST AS HE STATED IN THE SAIYAN ARC). Vegeta has never changed that much, and is the same POS he was from the start to the end.

So he sacrificed himself in an attempt to make up for his mistakes.

That's not it, just like with Cell and Freeza, once he is overpowered, he just gives up (and maybe has one last act of defiance, such as the final flash or his huge barrage against Freeza).

Vegeta is a good guy now in that he cares about the people around him and probably wouldn't kill for pleasure.

Nothing indicates he wouldn't kill for pleasure. Once he benefits from it, he'd do it. Earth is his home, he has nowhere to go, and all the best fights happen there. Why would he destroy that opportunity? But when everything went to hell in the Buu arc, he was totally fine with throwing Earth away since it wasn't needed for him in that instance. And he killed people to prove that point.

The ritual with the Saiyans holding hands was a bit stupid in my opinion and really corny.

I agree, that was awful. I cringed and shook my head in theatres when I saw that. It is also very non-Dragonball. The holy water, the room of spirit and time, heaven, King Kai, gravity training, that is cool! A really cheesy, anime stereotype ritual, that's not cool. That's what non-anime fans point to why they think anime is dumb haha. I hated that scene.

You'll have to define what you necessarily mean as evil for me to really get it though

Mass murder, selfishness, sociopathic tendencies, no moral outlook, non-sympathetic. Vegeta is all of those. Look how he treated Gohan for not staying strong; it's nearly identical to how Vegeta was getting annoyed at Nappa looking weak in front of the enemy because it makes himself, Vegeta, look bad.

[hleV]

As its perfectly clear from my posts, I was merely turning his own words back on him just so he could see how they don't make sense.

I would appreciate if you didn't go around throwing statements like that I don't make sense. I stand by what I said. Perhaps you failed to understand me (because there's a great difference between providing a reason for disliking BOG and defending BOG just because you like it and not because that reason is invalid). I am not allowed to continue this, so you shouldn't neither.

Thing is, Vegeta is willing to do evil things if it is beneficial to him.

I guess... You'll have to define what you necessarily mean as evil for me to really get it though. I can't really see EoZ Vegeta killing anyone if they annoy him. I feel that at most he'd just beat them up. Anyways, I feel that we've been pretty off-topic with this. Maybe it would be better if this was discussed in a new topic?

We're comparing DB Vegeta to BOG Vegeta to see if there's a difference and thus a reason to perhaps dislike BOG, which is quite on-topic as far as I'm concerned. Now to answer your question about evil, Boo arc Vegeta had 7 years to make a bond with Bulma and Trunks. He did. Yet he went on a rampage, killing people just to get Goku to fight him. In 28th TB, he didn't hesitate to knock out a tournament participant just for being annoying before the tournament even started. Not exactly a "good guy" in my book. He doesn't have to kill anybody for such a lame reason as being annoying (better to punch them to make them suffer!), especially if that could mean him getting disqualified from a tournament, but if he actually has to, he will not hesitate because he doesn't care about other people.

[rereboy]

I would appreciate if you didn't go around throwing statements like that I don't make sense. I stand by what I said.

You stand by telling other people to shut up about their opinion? You don't understand how that's wrong even when its thrown back to you? But then you don't appreciate when others comment that you telling people to shut up about their opinion doesn't make sense? Ok.

And I wasn't responding to you, I was simply making it clear for someone else what I had meant with my previous post so that that person didn't have any misconceptions about what I meant or my objective.

[hleV]

I never told anyone to shut up, especially about their opinion. And I know you weren't talking to me. You did say that I don't make sense, though, and since I am not really allowed to defend myself, you shouldn't be allowed to indirectly attack me, neither.

Let's end this here, I will write you a PM instead.

[rereboy]

I never told anyone to shut up.

Stop defending BOG only because it happened to deliver what you enjoy about DB, because it didn't deliver what many others enjoy about DB.

In order for them to stop defending, they have to shut up about it. Or just state things you agree with. So...

And I know you weren't talking to me. You did say that I don't make sense, though, and since I am not really allowed to defend myself, you shouldn't be allowed to indirectly attack me, neither.

I said that I believed that what you said didn't make sense. Not that you, as a person, didn't make sense. And I didn't state anything new at all, I just clarified for him. I couldn't clarify it for him without stating what I meant more clearly. I have no idea why that made self-conscious or disturbed or you didn't like it or whatever since it wasn't meant for you at all and I didn't mean anything different from what I had already meant.

[hleV]

I never told anyone to shut up.

Stop defending BOG only because it happened to deliver what you enjoy about DB, because it didn't deliver what many others enjoy about DB.

In order for them to stop defending, they have to shut up about it. Or just state things you agree with. So...

Since it somehow wasn't clear to you, I'm asking to not defend BOG just because one likes it, but rather provide actual basis for why the arguments in favor to disliking BOG are in their opinion invalid. "Stop defending BOG only because". Here, I underlined the essential part. I never told anyone to simply stop defending BOG, let alone shut up about their opinion.

[rereboy]

They don't need any solid and specific arguments for why they think it was good and they don't need a list of strong arguments to be allowed to express their opinion. They might not even know exactly why they liked it, they just like it. Its just their opinion, how they feel about it.

And that's the whole problem with what you are saying. What you are basically saying is that if they don't have a list of strong arguments for their opinion, they shouldn't express or shouldn't be allowed to express their opinion. You are basically telling them that if they don't speak something that YOU find worthwhile, then they should remain quiet. Or, in other words, they should shut up.

If you really find their lack of solid arguments unsatisfactory, the proper response would be something like "well, you don't have any real solid reasons/arguments, so its easy for me to continue to disagree with you. From the way I see it, the movie is not good/has problems because ... *list of reasons*."

That's what somehow hasn't been clear for you until now. I always understood perfectly what you meant.

[hleV]

They don't need any solid and specific arguments for why they think it was good and they don't need a list of strong arguments to be allowed to express their opinion.

Absolutely correct.

You have absolutely misunderstood me, though. I'm not saying you need an argument to let people know about you liking/disliking something, I'm saying that "I like it" is not an argument and thus does not contribute to a discussion about reasons for why another dislikes that something.

Is it just my opinion that when A talks about reasons for why they don't like X, and when B says that they like X, that B contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion?

[rereboy]

Yeah, you didn't tell them "well, I believe that just liking it is not a strong argument in a discussion, so if that's all your arguments, there's no way I can agree with you at all". You told everyone to remain quiet and shut up unless they provide reasons that YOU find worthwhile.

Consider the difference.

Its not up to you to decide which reasons/arguments for defending/praising BOB are worthwhile or not or if they should be allowed or not.

[superfunk]

Thing is, Vegeta is willing to do evil things if it is beneficial to him.

Exactly. For example, in BOG, Vegeta only cares since it really disrupts his life. Even the thing with Bulma, it's not that he cares for her safety, it's more of an ego thing; in other words, can he be more of a man than the provoker. If Beerus offered something Vegeta just couldn't refuse, and it was evil, mean, dirty, and nasty, and Vegeta could do it knowing that he could stop the likes of Goku and friends, he WOULD DO IT. No question about it.

He thought he was about to be killed and accepted it, saying it was an honour, then completely changes his tune when bulma gets hurt.How can it be about him being more of a man than the provoker, when he already accepted death from that provoker and only tried again after his wife got hurt?

[superfunk]

Post Cell Vegeta is exactly the same as post Buu Vegeta. Both in a position where he is out done and has to admit defeat. He maintains having a family since it helps him, such as a place to train. But once the opportunity arose, when things of peace feel apart, his sociopathic tendencies arose and he tossed his family like Nappa and his father.

This is why I believe Toriyama hates Vegeta and always gives him no redeeming victory because Vegeta is a despicable living being.

To a degree i agree with you, but nobody is truly altruistic, as in every act anybody has ever done is always in some way for themselves. He wouldn't have admitted Goku was a superior warrior to him if he hadn't changed, Why did he kill himself? the story flat out says he does it for people other than himself(piccolo flat out says it),he was told that he wouldn't see Goku in other world, which supposedly means so much to him, but he still kills himself to protect the ones he cares about.He seems to care about his family more than Goku does past a certain point in the buu saga, for example Vegeta shows more emotion about his families death than Goku and even agrees to fusion after hearing of Bulma's death, Goku rescues Dende and mr satan instead of their sons, Only Vegeta is shown to have a problem with this. He is definitely a selfish asshole, but he certainly has redeeming qualities and he certainly does change a fair bit.