What Makes Freeza So Special?

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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:16 am

More like 2 Androids/Cyborgs with great power. Just focusing on the human aspect kinda misses the point.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:33 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:More like 2 Androids/Cyborgs with great power. Just focusing on the human aspect kinda misses the point.
Nah, 3 humans with enough power to kill Freeza. Their cybernetics are unrelated to their strength.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:35 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:More like 2 Androids/Cyborgs with great power. Just focusing on the human aspect kinda misses the point.
<br abp="689"><br abp="690">Nah, 3 humans with enough power to kill Freeza. Their cybernetics are unrelated to their strength.
If they didn't have those cybernetics they wouldn't be that strong. You keep dodging the fact that they don't have ki.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:48 am

For me, it was because Freeza introduced a whole new level of power into the franchise... Power we'd never even dreamed of beforehand. Up to the Namek arc, even base form Freeza(PL=530k) was so far beyond any other mortal being in the universe that he never even had to think about accessing higher levels of power--absolutely nothing could challenge him. Heck, the closest mortal PL to his own was that of Ginyu--but even his formidable 120k was still utterly insignificant by comparison. Aside from Ginyu, the rest of the universe's 'high-end' mortal powers ranged between 4k-40k *at most*. The universe and all its inhabitants were puppets, and Freeza was the undisputed pupper-master.

Then, when a few of the Z fighters managed to gain power sufficient enough to challenge Freeza on Namek, we find out that he can assume higher/more evolved transformations that are astronomically more powerful than his base form. In fact, Freeza's final form wielded such gargantuan power that Goku was still incapable of defeating him without SSJ multipliers as recently as BoG(which takes place like, what? 16ish years later..?) Frankly, that's just mind-boggling to me.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:51 am

Actually, their bio-organic components are exactly why they're so strong. Even Gero admits he couldn't control them because he placed too much focus on their powers via the infinite energy reactors. All of their power is from their cybernetics.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:57 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Actually, their bio-organic components are exactly why they're so strong. Even Gero admits he couldn't control them because he placed too much focus on their powers via the infinite energy reactors. All of their power is from their cybernetics.
The guidebooks, Cell, and Toriyama seemed to retcon that. If Gero ever outright said that their power was mechanical, of course.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Saiga » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:18 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Actually, their bio-organic components are exactly why they're so strong. Even Gero admits he couldn't control them because he placed too much focus on their powers via the infinite energy reactors. All of their power is from their cybernetics.
The guidebooks, Cell, and Toriyama seemed to retcon that. If Gero ever outright said that their power was mechanical, of course.
Where would you say their power is coming from, then? I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say, but it's definitely the case that they wouldn't have the power without the augmentations.

If you're trying to say that while they owe their strength Gero's work, he developed a treatment/procedure that makes humans as strong as 17/18, then yeah that wouldn't necessarily contradict anything and I've considered that myself.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:27 am

Where would you say their power is coming from, then? I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say, but it's definitely the case that they wouldn't have the power without the augmentations.

If you're trying to say that while they owe their strength Gero's work, he developed a treatment/procedure that makes humans as strong as 17/18, then yeah that wouldn't necessarily contradict anything and I've considered that myself.
That's what I'm saying. He did SOMETHING that can make a human extremely strong. All that's known is that "something" wasn't to simply give them built-in weapons, as was the case with 16 (who had both extremely powerful but static and limited energy projectors, i.e. the Hell's Flash and perhaps eye lasers, and some ki-like 'energy field' to enhance strength, speed, and durability to far-beyond-planet-buster levels). Cell considers their power organic, 17 contributed to the genki dama, the guidebooks state that the self-destruction/shutdown devices/bomb are the only mechanical bits, and Toriyama said they could improve their strength by training.

I think that's unnecessarily complicated compared to them just using the same source of power as 16, but it seems to be the case, especially with Toriyama's recent comments taken into account.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by rereboy » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:22 am

Saiga wrote:
If you're trying to say that while they owe their strength Gero's work, he developed a treatment/procedure that makes humans as strong as 17/18, then yeah that wouldn't necessarily contradict anything and I've considered that myself.
That doesn't matter. They would be hopeless without that modification. Whether that modification is biological or mechanical, their power comes exclusively from that modification and because of that modification.

Its like grouping Captain America with the Punisher like they are inherently the same. They are not. Captain America received a serum, a modification, that changed him and modified him. Thanks to that he can run faster than the fastest athlete and many other amazing physical feats. Meanwhile, the punisher is just an extremely well trained human with guns. They are both human, but just grouping them together just like that in terms of fighting capability is erroneous because Captain America, thanks to his modification, is inherently different, and is beyond the Punisher and non-modified humans.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
They're not "mostly human", unless you don't consider people with artificial limbs to be human. They are human. They can produce offspring and everything. The only cybernetic parts they have are the bomb, the generators, and the thing that shuts them off. They are humans. With human power. Who are stronger than Freeza.
Actually, anyone with an working artifical limb with feedback would be a cyborg. They don't cease to be human, but they are also cyborgs because parts of them are no longer just human. Sorry to burst your bubble but that's just how the definition is.

You seem to think its a question of "or". But its a question of "and". They would be human and cyborgs. And since they are more than just human, grouping them with people who really are nothing more than humans, is erroneous, especially in fighting ability if the artificial parts give a significant advantage in fighting ability.

And its the same even if all the changes are just biological. They would still be more than just humans.
The statement was "no human could beat Freeza". The correction was "Uub, 17, and 18 are humans". There's nothing more to it. It's factual and basic. What, exactly, are you trying to prove?
The statement was obviously leaving out the androids in its intent. You are the one insisting that the androids should be included in the intent of the statement purely due to technicality, while forgetting that, in terms of fighting ability, they are clearly not the same, hence why they were not included in the intent of the statement.

So, what are YOU trying to prove? That the androids are modified humans? I don't think there's anyone here denying that, so, if that's all, that has been proved a long time ago. But you aren't doing just that... You are denying that they are more than humans and that they owe their power to their modifications. You are denying that they aren't really the same in terms of fighting ability, and you are denying that the intent of the question was to leave out the androids because of those modifications.

Nope, they're still just humans. Unless you want to deny that Krillin is human.
Krillin has no modification. He lacks a nose for some reason, but at most that's an injury or a congenital defect. Also, humans in Dragon Ball seem to be more unusual in their physical attributes than in the real world so it might not even count as that.

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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Bussani » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:25 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Toriyama said they could improve their strength by training.
I'd forgotten about that. Which interview did he say that in?

Of course, it might still be conjecture to say that their power doesn't come from something artificial. After all, doesn't Gero flat out say that their power comes from a reactor?
Chapter: 349 (DBZ 155), P13.4
Context: while it looks like No.17 and No.18 are acting obedient
No.20: “Frankly I’d been worried. The majority of your functions were geared towards your infinite energy reactors and gigantic power, so I wasn’t able to properly control you, and you used to ignore my orders.”
But we also know that the three with these reactors are all at different levels of strength when they fight. Do their reactors have different finite outputs, even though they all have an infinite run time? Well, that might go against Toriyama saying they can get stronger through training, so what if we said that the reactors were capable of any output so long as the person drawing power from them could handle it? What they'd be increasing from training would be their capacity for the energy and their control over it. But we know they're mostly still human--just modified in unknown ways--so I don't find it strange that 17 would still have genki to contribute to the Genki Dama.

Just a thought. I'm sure other people can think of countless other possibilities.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:36 pm

Of course, it might still be conjecture to say that their power doesn't come from something artificial. After all, doesn't Gero flat out say that their power comes from a reactor?
Actually, the quote you posted pretty much said the opposite. He mentions their infinite energy reactors and their gigantic power levels as separate things.
Its like grouping Captain America with the Punisher like they are inherently the same. They are not. Captain America received a serum, a modification, that changed him and modified him. Thanks to that he can run faster than the fastest athlete and many other amazing physical feats. Meanwhile, the punisher is just an extremely well trained human with guns. They are both human, but just grouping them together just like that in terms of fighting capability is erroneous because Captain America, thanks to his modification, is inherently different, and is beyond the Punisher and non-modified humans.
Not if Punisher had received a magical power up from an alien god earlier in his life that put him waaaaaaay above the average human.
Actually, anyone with an working artifical limb with feedback would be a cyborg. They don't cease to be human, but they are also cyborgs because parts of them are no longer just human. Sorry to burst your bubble but that's just how the definition is.
Of course they are cyborgs. But they're also human. They don't suddenly cease to be human.
You seem to think its a question of "or". But its a question of "and". They would be human and cyborgs. And since they are more than just human, grouping them with people who really are nothing more than humans, is erroneous, especially in fighting ability if the artificial parts give a significant advantage in fighting ability.

And its the same even if all the changes are just biological. They would still be more than just humans.
Again, by this logic Krillin shouldn't count as a human. Both he and the androids got procedures from wizards (let's be honest, that's what Gero was) that boosted them to levels far above what they could ever get with mere training.
The statement was obviously leaving out the androids in its intent. You are the one insisting that the androids should be included in the intent of the statement purely due to technicality, while forgetting that, in terms of fighting ability, they are clearly not the same, hence why they were not included in the intent of the statement.
You're really over complicating things. 17 and 18 are human. Their power is biological. They are stronger than Freeza. Therefore, there are humans with far greater ki than Freeza.
So, what are YOU trying to prove? That the androids are modified humans? I don't think there's anyone here denying that, so, if that's all, that has been proved a long time ago. But you aren't doing just that... You are denying that they are more than humans and that they owe their power to their modifications
Obviously, they do. But every character in the series has gotten their power boosted dramatically due to modifications from another source at one point. Unless you want to start arguing that Goku isn't a Saiyan, then there's no real reason to exclude them when talking about human strength.
You are denying that they aren't really the same in terms of fighting ability, and you are denying that the intent of the question was to leave out the androids because of those modifications.
It doesn't really matter what the intent was. The statement was incorrect. 17 and 18 are human. Not half-human/half-machine. They are 95% human, 5% machine, and their mechanical parts are completely unrelated to their power. So they are humans. With organic power. Who are stronger than Freeza.
Krillin has no modification. He lacks a nose for some reason, but at most that's an injury or a congenital defect. Also, humans in Dragon Ball seem to be more unusual in their physical attributes than in the real world so it might not even count as that.
Krillin received that potential unlock power-up on Namek. There's no real difference between him and 17/18 when comparing them to normal humans. They both got boosts they wouldn't otherwise get that makes them way more powerful than other humans, and way stronger than what they would otherwise be.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:14 pm

So when Yamcha says Krillin is the strongest among humans/earthlings, would #17 & #18 logically be included in that statement?

Their powers are obviously artificial. Gero has full control over it and actually suppresses #18's power. I don't even see how you're comparing Krillin's latent power release to what the Androids have. Both are different. Intense training would've likely brought that power out at some point, while the same would be impossible for the Androids.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:35 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:So when Yamcha says Krillin is the strongest among humans/earthlings, would #17 & #18 logically be included in that statement?

Their powers are obviously artificial. Gero has full control over it and actually suppresses #18's power. I don't even see how you're comparing Krillin's latent power release to what the Androids have. Both are different. Intense training would've likely brought that power out at some point, while the same would be impossible for the Androids.
Yamcha wasn't considering them, for whatever reason. It's not like he knows about the mechanics of their power, after all, so he probably thinks their power is artificial and "doesn't count" when it actually isn't and does.

He can do that without their power being mechanical in nature. Nah, no way was Krillin ever getting that strong through regular training.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Bussani » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:49 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Actually, the quote you posted pretty much said the opposite. He mentions their infinite energy reactors and their gigantic power levels as separate things.
Fair enough, but what I proposed also treated their infinite energy reactors and power levels as separate things (i.e. the reactor powers them, but their power levels depend on their capacity for it). My point is that there are lots of ways of looking at it, all of them equally conjecture at this stage. I don't think anyone should be saying "it's like this" when we're really only guessing.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:56 pm

What does any of this have to do with what sets Freeza apart from the other main villains?
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Kaboom » Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:38 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:What does any of this have to do with what sets Freeza apart from the other main villains?
I, too, am curious.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Avenged » Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:44 pm

You guys forgot about Mr. Satan, he defeated Cell so I'm sure he can defeat Freeza. :)
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:10 pm

Therefore, there are humans with far greater ki than Freeza.
They don't have Ki because they're cyborgs.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by Avenged » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:17 pm

ABED wrote:
Therefore, there are humans with far greater ki than Freeza.
They don't have Ki because they're cyborgs.
Androids 19 and 20 collected ki from Goku and co.
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Re: What Makes Freeza So Special?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:28 pm

ABED wrote:
Therefore, there are humans with far greater ki than Freeza.
They don't have Ki because they're cyborgs.
The only cybernetic parts they have is the bomb mechanism & the shut-down device.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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