What Makes Freeza So Special?

[rereboy]

Again, by this logic Krillin shouldn't count as a human. Both he and the androids got procedures from wizards (let's be honest, that's what Gero was) that boosted them to levels far above what they could ever get with mere training.

Actually no, because all it did was release his own potential. The power was his all along and he could have reached it just fine with training. The magic was just a shortcut to that, nothing else, it didn't expand him beyond himself.

Unlike the Kaioshin ritual, this intervention didn't expand his potential beyond his own limits. If he did receive the Kaioshin ritual, then I would agree with you and I would say that he was a human modified by magic and, as such, he would be inherently different from the other humans in terms of fighting ability.

You're really over complicating things. 17 and 18 are human. Their power is biological. They are stronger than Freeza. Therefore, there are humans with far greater ki than Freeza.

Not really. You see, I don't deny that they are just modified humans, which is your point. I never denied that, technically, they are humans. I just pointed out that, for the matters being discussed, that's not the classification most relevant to them. Its the android/cyborg classification that is most relevant, while for the others its the human classification.

There's literally no point in being technical about it and go out of our way to say that we must group them with the other humans, like you suggest. In fact, that would only make it more difficult to determine who we are talking about and it would ignore the differences between the ones who are just humans and the ones who are cyborgs/androids. Especially since even the Saiyan's offspring could be called humans by that logic.

But whatever. Discussing anything with you is too tiresome since you always become dead set in strictly maintaining what you said, without ever giving even the impression that you are actually understanding the viewpoint of the person you are talking to, so I grow tired of debating this.

[Vice]

Holy shit, RandomGuy is the first person I've ever seen try to make this stupid ass argument in regards to the androids. Their power comes from the modifications to their bodies making them androids, they aren't powerful without it. Everyone knows this.

[RandomGuy96]

Actually no, because all it did was release his own potential. The power was his all along and he could have reached it just fine with training. The magic was just a shortcut to that, nothing else, it didn't expand him beyond himself.

Unlike the Kaioshin ritual, this intervention didn't expand his potential beyond his own limits. If he did receive the Kaioshin ritual, then I would agree with you and I would say that he was a human modified by magic and, as such, he would be inherently different from the other humans in terms of fighting ability.

That's an arbitrary distinction. One, we don't know if those two could have ever reached that power in their lifetimes without what Gero did. Second- so, to you, Gohan and Vegeta don't count as Saiyans?

Not really. You see, I don't deny that they are just modified humans, which is your point. I never denied that, technically, they are humans. I just pointed out that, for the matters being discussed, that's not the classification most relevant to them. Its the android/cyborg classification that is most relevant, while for the others its the human classification.

And I'm saying that, no, them being cyborgs doesn't relate at all to their strengths. Their only mechanical parts are their generators, shutdown devices, and bombs. Their power is organic. I don't see any meaningful difference between what Gero did to them what Guru did to Krillin, Elder Kaioshin did to Gohan, or the god water did to Goku. In every case, it's just using magic to shoot your power up to levels it wouldn't otherwise go. Also, by this logic, Krillin and Ten don't count as humans due to some non-human 'parts'. Ten is the descendant of the descendant of aliens, and Krillin inexplicably lacks a nose.

There's literally no point in being technical about it and go out of our way to say that we must group them with the other humans, like you suggest. In fact, that would only make it more difficult to determine who we are talking about and it would ignore the differences between the ones who are just humans and the ones who are cyborgs/androids. Especially since even the Saiyan's offspring could be called humans by that logic.

Them being cyborgs has nothing to do with their strength. That's the point.

Yes, Gohan and co are humans, at least as much as they are Saiyans. People usually don't count them and just call them Saiyans due to them being able to transform and such, though.

But whatever. Discussing anything with you is too tiresome since you always become dead set in strictly maintaining what you said, without ever giving even the impression that you are actually understanding the viewpoint of the person you are talking to, so I grow tired of debating this.

For someone who supposedly hates arguing with me, you sure do do it a lot.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Enough. How about we go back to the topic, yeah? Take your argument to the In-Universe sub-forum where it belongs.

[hleV]

That's quite an interesting sub-topic about androids #17 and #18 there.

It's true that they have ki, but whatever ki they have is pretty much on the same level as other human beings' (and that's exactly what was used when #17 donated to Genki Dama), so probably around 5BP. And according to Toriyama they can get stronger, so the androids' ki-based power likely adds up with their artificial power (AP). For actual combat they (mostly?) use their AP, which cannot be sensed by the Z fighters. Now where does that AP come from? Gero did refer to the infinite energy reactors (IER) and the androids' huge AP as somewhat separate things, but can a conclusion be made that the IER is absolutely unrelated to AP? After all, it's the IER that makes sure that AP does not run out and that the androids don't get tired.

I think it would be safe to say that we simply don't know enough. Can they be considered the most powerful humans? I personally doubt it, their power is artifical after all. Surely there's a difference between humans and cyborgs? And Toriyama himself considers Kuririn to be the strongest Eartling, doesn't he?

[EXBadguy]

Can we stop with the android talk, people? Save that for the In-Universe forums.

He's not a recurring antagonist. He's only the main villain of one arc, unless you count his cameo at the beginning of the android arc. On top of that, his arc is actually shorter than either Cell's or Buu's, and he's only an active antagonist for the last half, so yeah. This idea that he's a more important villain than any of the other arc villains mostly comes from stuff outside the manga.

If this Frieza revival crap wasn't around, I wouldn't have put him as a recurring one and would just say the he is the primary antagonist of at least 2/3 of Z. The last two villains, though they were main antagonists of their own sagas, there role isn't as big as Frieza's, though one is bigger than the other, as I said again, Cell as the secondary antagonist of Z and Buu as the tertiary one.

[rereboy]

For someone who supposedly hates arguing with me, you sure do do it a lot.

I don't hate arguing with you, I hate when a debate just goes nowhere. It just happens a lot with you.

In this debate for example, its very clear that I'm not actually not denying what you said about them being basically humans, and I've always stated that and agreed on that. My point was another one entirely, as I've explained. I just don't really understand why you don't just say something like: "yeah, its true that they aren't really like the other humans who are just humans and its true that they have that power purely thanks to their modifications. However, I prefer to include them with the humans nonetheless since they are humans, even if modified. I get what you are saying about differentiating the two groups, but I personally prefer to just call them all humans".

Debates between us are long because usually you don't acknowledge anything. That's all. In this debate, if you had stated something similar to that phrase, there wouldn't even be a debate, just a few posts about it. Instead you go out of your way to say things like their power is unrelated to the modifications they received just because you will not acknowledge anything, even if its something pretty much undeniable like that.

Spoiler:

That's an arbitrary distinction. One, we don't know if those two could have ever reached that power in their lifetimes without what Gero did. Second- so, to you, Gohan and Vegeta don't count as Saiyans?

Gohan is obviously still a half-saiyan, just like #17 is still basically human. However, he was modified and expanded on by magic, at least in terms of fighting ability. So, I obviously don't forget that and I obviously differentiate him from the other half-saiyans in terms of fighting. However, I might include Gohan when talking about Saiyans in general because, despite his human half and his magic modifications, its the saiyan classification that is usually most relevant to mention. That is not the case regarding #17 and #18 and the classification of androids/cyborgs ends up pretty much always being the most relevant for them, which was ALWAYS my point in this debate.

Majin Vegeta, I don't remember if that transformation actually gave him power beyond his own or if it simply awakened it. I also don't know if he kept power beyond his own after he was revived or not. My answer would depend on knowing that.

If #17 was more powerful than Freeza BEFORE undergoing the modifications, the modification would just expand him beyond that, basically adding the power provided by the modification to his natural abilities. So, I don't really get what you are getting that. These modifications would always expand him beyond himself.

And I'm saying that, no, them being cyborgs doesn't relate at all to their strengths. Their only mechanical parts are their generators, shutdown devices, and bombs. Their power is organic. I don't see any meaningful difference between what Gero did to them what Guru did to Krillin, Elder Kaioshin did to Gohan, or the god water did to Goku. In every case, it's just using magic to shoot your power up to levels it wouldn't otherwise go. Also, by this logic, Krillin and Ten don't count as humans due to some non-human 'parts'. Ten is the descendant of the descendant of aliens, and Krillin inexplicably lacks a nose.

The god water awakened latent potential in Goku, it didn't expand him beyond himself. It was a shortcut, nothing else. Same thing for Guru.

However, Kaioshin's ritual is comparable to what Gero did because it expanded Gohan beyond himself.

Tenshinhan will depend if you take into consideration what the guides say. If you do, he is more than human and deserves a differentiation.

However, Krillin lacking a nose is just, at most a congenital defect, nothing else. There's no logic in him being more than human just because he was born without a nose.

Them being cyborgs has nothing to do with their strength. That's the point.

And here you are, denying that they have the power that they have because Gero did modifications on them that expanded them beyond themselves, stating instead that its unrelated...

As for the topic, what I think separates Freeza from the other villains the most is his depiction as an established ruler. All other villains were just powerful evil beings that wanted to rule or just mess things up or kill people and whatnot. Freeza on the other hand is an actual established ruler who has ruled for many years and controls a large part of the galaxy. His influence is so great that it was him that killed off most saiyans all those years ago. That builds him immensely as a villain and makes him very different from the rest.