Why did almost every dub fail with the first SSJ Goku scene?

[TVfan721]

The scene where Goku becomes a Super Saiyan for the first time is meant to be a very special scene. It's one of the most memorable scenes in the whole DBZ story and yet, almost every dub in the world did a terrible job and completely ruined the scene. The only two International Dubs that actually did it justice IMO were the German and Intertrack/Spanish dubs. The voice actor for Goku in the Intertrack dub did an incredible job and I think it's on par with the Japanese version. That whole scene is phenomenal in the Intertrack dub and you can tell they took the whole scene very seriously. The German one is very good too, great effort with the scream and the voice acting for that whole scene was well done. All of the other dubs I've heard, the VA puts no effort into the scream and in somes cases, it sounds like Goku is having diarrhea. I don't get it really.

Sean actually did a decent job with the scene in the Funimation dub back in the day, the scream was done well enough but the scene is still ruined by the unnecessary dub music.

[MagicBox]

I did enjoy how FUNimation handled it for the Kai dub. That effect they used on Schemmel's voice was pretty darn cool.

So that's one dubbed version of the scene that I did enjoy.

[Tatakae!!Ramenman]

I feel like the japanese version failed with the first SSJ Goku scene. When I was watching it for the first time time I was so excited and there was so much build up and then they just reused a generic boring music track. I think the scene where Gohan turned SSJ 2 was done really well, but I think they completely blew it with Goku turning SSJ for the first time.

[TVfan721]

I respectfully disagree. I think the scene is amazing because it's the only time in the entire series where Goku has a male scream. It REALLY makes it stand out.

[Gyt Kaliba]

You know, I was actually about to defend the original FUNi dub's take on this, but actually going back and re-watching it via Youtube...and I actually have more of a problem there with Sean's acting than I do with the Falcouner score being used there. The score fits well enough, IMO, but...wow...you've really come a long way, Sean.

Funny part is though, I still got pretty nostalgic watching it, since that was pretty much RIGHT when I got into the series. Ahh, memories.

[TVfan721]

The sad thing is that Sean's performance in that scene in the 99 dub is still much better than most of the dubs. Whether people liked the Funimation dub or not, no one can really deny that they were at least TRYING to do a good job with that scene.

[Sin]

You know, I was actually about to defend the original FUNi dub's take on this, but actually going back and re-watching it via Youtube...and I actually have more of a problem there with Sean's acting than I do with the Falcouner score being used there. The score fits well enough, IMO, but...wow...you've really come a long way, Sean.

Funny part is though, I still got pretty nostalgic watching it, since that was pretty much RIGHT when I got into the series. Ahh, memories.

I agree completely, the score worked with the scene and I've always appreciated the mystic vibe I get from the track once he has transformed. But yeah watching it back now and having seen the Kai dub, the acting in the original Funi dub just feels awkward, I think it is a tough scene for voice acting though and that is why so many dubs fail, it's a scene of raw power and emotion and that can be tough to nail.

[Rocketman]

I think it is a tough scene for voice acting though and that is why so many dubs fail, it's a scene of raw power and emotion and that can be tough to nail.

Hell, the original Japanese couldn't even get it right.

[Videlphia76ers]

I think the original Funi dub had the speech down pretty well (I'm the light in darkness metaphors were pretty ill for a kids show). I haven't seen the Japanese version of it, but the Kai version was a letdown for me.

[DarkPrince_92]

If I remember correctly, in the Japanese version, Goku's scream started before his mouth actually opened... loses major points for me.

[Valerius Dover]

Sean actually did a decent job with the scene in the Funimation dub back in the day, the scream was done well enough but the scene is still ruined by the unnecessary dub music.

Which can be easily fixed by not going out of your way to select the replacement music. Try it with the original score and see what you think of it.

Personally, I prefer the dub music for this scene, having seen the original clip as well. Schemmel does kind of make it sound like Goku's taking a dump at first, but once the screaming starts, it's great.

[LordCrumb]

I think the original Funi dub had the speech down pretty well (I'm the light in darkness metaphors were pretty ill for a kids show). I haven't seen the Japanese version of it, but the Kai version was a letdown for me.

Wrong scene.

I think Funimation did a better job than the Japanese version. The original was quite lackluster.. Sean made it feel quite emotional the way his voice was breaking when saying ''I wont, let you, get away with this...''

[sangofe]

The scene where Goku becomes a Super Saiyan for the first time is meant to be a very special scene. It's one of the most memorable scenes in the whole DBZ story and yet, almost every dub in the world did a terrible job and completely ruined the scene. The only two International Dubs that actually did it justice IMO were the German and Intertrack/Spanish dubs. The voice actor for Goku in the Intertrack dub did an incredible job and I think it's on par with the Japanese version. That whole scene is phenomenal in the Intertrack dub and you can tell they took the whole scene very seriously. The German one is very good too, great effort with the scream and the voice acting for that whole scene was well done. All of the other dubs I've heard, the VA puts no effort into the scream and in somes cases, it sounds like Goku is having diarrhea. I don't get it really.

Sean actually did a decent job with the scene in the Funimation dub back in the day, the scream was done well enough but the scene is still ruined by the unnecessary dub music.

Tell me, which dubs have you compared?

[baneofdemon22]

I thought Sean Schemmel did a fantastic job in KAI! He really sounded like a guy who snapped! It might even be my favorite scream!

[DBZAOTA482]

If I remember correctly, in the Japanese version, Goku's scream started before his mouth actually opened... loses major points for me.

The animation for that whole scene also looked a bit.. off.

[Hugo Boss]

I personally think the Brazilian Dub did a great job with Kai comparing it with Z. Though I don't like Freeza's new dub actor. Campanille was perfect for Freeza.

[B]

The English versions of the scene in Sparking! METEOR and Burst Limit weren't bad, but of course they aren't the original show. I even thought the Kai version was slightly off.

I guess it's just such a raw scene of Goku's breakdown that you simply cannot fake it. You either did it right or you didn't.

[TVfan721]

Valerius Dover, I don't have any of the DVD's but I did check out the english scene with the Japanese music once and it's a lot better. The dub music isn't bad, it fits the scene but I prefer the original. The replacement music was unnecessary just like the whole soundtrack in general was. a lot of the Falconer music is still good on it's own though.

Tell me, which dubs have you compared?

I don't remember all of them but from the ones I can remember right now, Greek, Portugese, Chinese, Hungarian, Brazilian, Korean, also French and Polish which both didn't bother to even dub the scream.

I forgot that the Italian dub did a great job with this scene as well so I want to make that correction.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Well, I can think of a couple reasons why they might not live up to the Japanese version.


1) Screams. Screams are very tough to do. I don't mean to sound like I'm making an excuse for actors (after all, it's their job to act), but screaming in particular is a big concern for many voice actors. If an actor screams too much, they risk losing their voice and, in effect, risk being temporarily unemployable. For that matter, unemployable in a profession that doesn't pay that well to begin with. I don't know what voice actors in other countries get paid, but to give you an idea, the union rate for dubbing in the US is about $64-70 (depending on how the project is distributed) per hour of studio time. And that's the union rate...if it's non-union, it's likely that the pay is even less. Compare that to an international commercial at union rates, which could pay upwards of $30,000...and I think you could see why an actor would be upset if they couldn't audition for that due to a lost voice. Brian Drummond actually once said at a con that he asked his agent to try and schedule his recording sessions for Vegeta on Fridays so that he could have the weekend to recover his voice.

All that to say, I could imagine a lot of actors didn't go all-out on their screams--and produced underwhelming results--because they didn't want to lose out on other, higher-paying jobs.

It doesn't always work that way, of course. Different countries have different payment methods. For example, I learned not too long ago that, in France, actors don't paid according to studio time, but rather, they get paid by the line. So, every line of dialogue is worth X amount of euros. In their case, screams and vocal sounds are counted as lines. The budget for their dub of DBZ was pretty low, and so they saved money on voice acting wherever possible by either keeping the audio silent or switching to the original Japanese audio whenever a character screamed (a problem that was corrected for the French dub of Kai, in all fairness).

Which brings me to the second reason...


2) Low budgets. Among the different sections of the voice acting industry, dubbing has never been a particularly high-budget affair except on a few rare occasions when film celebrities are involved (think Disney's dubs of the Miyazaki movies). Film celebrities are in a position to demand higher pay than the union minimum. I actually remember getting an audition notice and seeing in the notes, "Pay is SAG-AFTRA scale, will consider double or triple scale if actor is celebrity." As with anything in life, paying more doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a better result. Generally, though, actors who are talented (or at least in demand) know better than to sell themselves short. So the less money a company is offering, the less likely they are to appeal to talented actors, and more likely to appeal to amateurs who "want to be in a cartoon because it's cool." There are exceptions on both sides, of course...plenty of brilliantly talented actors who work for very little, and plenty of horrifically untalented "actors" who are getting paid way more than they're worth.

I'm trying to find the interview, and can't, but there's an interview with Chris Sabat (I believe it's on the DBZ blu-rays) where he said that part of the reason he got into FUNimation's talent pool was because he was one of the few people willing to work for the rates that they were offering at the time (the use of the phrase "at the time" implies that they may pay more now). I don't want to quote him since I can't find the interview, but I believe he said he was paid somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-40 bucks to play Yamcha in DB Movie 2.

I'm not sure to what degree the original animation companies are involved in contributing to the budget for the various international dubs. However, as we all know, Toei is a little on the cheap side. So I wouldn't be surprised if the different dubbing companies around the world weren't getting a lot of help from Toei.


3) Fans weren't holding dubs to higher standards, with regard to both writing/adaptation and acting. Back in "the day," the only way to see DBZ in Japanese was to see it on bootlegged VHS tapes or to actually go to Japan. The internet was not around, so fans had no way of knowing what they were missing out on. The only version most people got to see was the local dub, and since they didn't know what it had been changed from, they had no complaints. With the rise of high-speed internet connections, though, fans did get to see what they were missing out on. They started complaining about it more vocally, to the point where dub producers, actors, and directors took notice. I think you'll find that, generally speaking, dubs today are, in general, far better than they used to be. It seems as though dubs used to be looked at purely as a translational tool, whereas nowadays, they're looked at both as a translational tool and as an artistic one. If fans are unsatisfied, they can voice their dissatisfaction much more easily now.


4) Slow communication between dubbing studios and the original animation companies. Again, we come back to the internet. Many older dubs were produced at a blindingly fast pace, and without the internet, dubbing companies just didn't have time to ask all the questions they wanted to. In effect, many dubbing studios found out the story of what they were dubbing as they went along. For example, the French dub of Saint Seiya (produced in the late 80's) originally cast a female actress to play Andromeda Shun, based on the character's feminine appearance. For two (I think maybe three) episodes, a woman voiced him. Yes, "him"...when the French dubbing studio started getting translations that referred to Shun as "him," there was a collectively awkward moment when they all realized that the character was, in fact, a dude. Next episode, the character had a male voice actor from there on out.

It's hard for an actor to give their best performance if they don't know why they're saying what they are. Scott McNeil has said several times now that back when they were dubbing DBZ, they had no idea what they were doing, and didn't really understand the story. I've heard the cast of the French dub of DBZ say that they didn't get the story until they did Kai.

Above all else, though, slow communication meant little oversight from the original animation company. As an ANN article noted, without the internet, the original animation companies couldn't involve themselves in the dubbing process too much. They sort of had to just go with their gut and trust that the people they hired would produce good results, and if they ever bothered to watch the dub, it wouldn't be until after it had been out for quite some time. For the most part, they adopted the "If you think your choices with the dub will make the show more profitable, then do it, we trust you"-mentality. They didn't have another choice if they wanted to get the dubs out at the pace they wanted to. Dubbing studios, in turn, stepped up their efforts. Chris Sabat once said that one of the greatest blessings he ever got as a director was the internet, so he could go and research his dubs before directing them.


Without knowing the behind-the-scenes info on every dub on a case-by-case basis, I can't say for sure where the ball was dropped. With that said, most of the dubs of DBZ are relatively old by today's standards, and back in the old days, these areas are typically where the ball was dropped.

[UltimateHammerBro]

As someone who's interested in voice acting, I must say: bravo.
A really good summary of how many things work in the VA industry. I also have a hunch that it can be applied to many more dubs: I know quite a bit about the Spanish dub of DB, and you'd be surprised by how much of what you've said fits its history perfectly.