What made GT so bad ?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
TheLegend23
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:04 am
Location: Pennsylvania

What made GT so bad ?

Post by TheLegend23 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:55 am

I've been sitting here for a couple of hours watching some episodes of DBGT, and no matter how many times I watch it I just can't get into it. I've been a Dragon Ball fan since 98'. I remember back in the day I would watch GT fan subs I would download off whatever sharing program we had at the time, and thinking to myself Wtf. The idea of the show was really dope, but I felt like the whole execution was terrible. The transitions through sagas are too quick there isn't a lot of build up to the next villain, and I just can't help but get bored with it. Goku's super saiyan 4 transformation on the other hand was a brilliant idea I felt like they really nailed that one. Vegetas not so much though. The lack of most of the characters we came to grow with was always very disappointing. I Also have to add that I think Pan has to be hands down the worst character in Dragon Ball history. Basically I just feel like the whole thing was rushed and they could have put way more into the series then what was. These are just a few things I felt made The Grand Tour so bad, what do you think made it bad ?

User avatar
Sin
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:24 pm
Location: England

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Sin » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:20 am

I think you've covered a few of the reasons why it is unpopular, there was just a lack of direction really, it was trying to be Dragon Ball then it was trying to be Z, capitalizing off of working formulas is a safe option but in this case didn't produce a good result.

There were also very few likable characters in my opinion, maybe this is due to little character development as the series was simply too focused on Goku. Leading on from this just how likable was Goku anyway? As the main protagonist it felt odd for me that I ended up finding him simply annoying, maybe that's because by GT we're used to Goku being a grown man and having developed throughout the series, but here he is as some manchild brat.

Admittedly the series has grown on me over the years, I can appreciate the art, music and ideas behind the show, however I just never felt the way about GT that I do about DB/Z.

To say that GT takes us across the universe it really feels like we're not getting anywhere at all.

User avatar
Videlphia76ers
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:54 am

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Videlphia76ers » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:14 am

They only thing that made GT worthwhile was how they ended it. Making it all start AND end with the Dragonballs was a cool plot move. Finally answered the question "So they can just use them whenever, what's the point?"
Cool dudes do cool stuff like 5 Chipotle burritos

User avatar
Marco Polo
I Live Here
Posts: 2965
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:44 pm
Location: France

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Marco Polo » Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:49 am

I thought the answer is pretty obvious. Lack of Akira Toriyama made GT bad.

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Attitudefan » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:14 am

I'll never forget being so hyped up when it was going to air on TV after DBZ ended, I mean, there is a sequel to my favourite show ever! Then it aired... and Goku was wished back into a child... I dropped the show probably 3 or 4 episodes in. It was so disappointing. However, I continued to watch the original Dragonball to the end (where Z begins!).

The problem with GT is that it tried to be funny, yet serious, and different with its colour palette and art style, yet revert back before Z to the original Dragonball... yet, somehow, still try to be Z as well! It was too many ideas and aspirations which sound neat as separate entities on paper, but put together in execution just ended up losing track of what it wanted to be. Was it a fighting show? Was it a comedy?

Dragonball was humorous but throughout each arc handled humour differently, such as using light-hearted humour in the Pilaf arc, to using dark humour in the Freeza arc (such as using the Ginyu Force as slpastick comedy, but doing brutal things since they are flamboyant mercenaries). It worked. It was balanced. Yet here, in GT, you have Goku reverted to a kid, yet still acts like an adult, kinda (unlike in DB, where he is growing as a child to a man and learning things along the way with the viewer; in GT he has an adult mind, but acts childish. The problem is that he already had that part of his character developed and it doesn't work anymore). Despite that, there are these fantastical, fairly serious battles, yet look like peanuts even when it is compared to the Red Ribbon Army, or the fight with Piccolo.

In summary, I think reverting growth of characters personalities and their abilities worked against GT causing it to lose focus on what it really wanted to be.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:08 am

Instead of an anti-GT thread for the Nth time, can we just make one that's more constructive? The show is not nearly as bad as it's being made out to be.
The problem with GT is that it tried to be funny, yet serious
That's no different than many shows. They switch tones a lot, and GT didn't do it any worse than many times in DBZ.
Was it a fighting show? Was it a comedy?
It was both, just like DB. I think you are seriously reaching for reasons to hate on it with this one.
The problem is that he already had that part of his character developed and it doesn't work anymore
I don't even know what this means. It has nothing to do with character development. The man in a child's body thing worked fine because the comedy was played differently than just Goku is a manchild. He was in fact the oldest in his group but he was constantly put in situations where people were treating him like a child.

I am in agreement that the execution on a number of the ideas, especially the fights, could've been much better. But yet again, that could apply to much of Toriyama's work.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16549
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:03 am

ABED wrote:Instead of an anti-GT thread for the Nth time, can we just make one that's more constructive?
By all means, create a thread for that separate discussion.

For what it's with, however, that's no less pervasive an idea or conversation ("GT Defense") than this is. No need to rain on someone's parade.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
TheLegend23
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:04 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by TheLegend23 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 am

Abed its just for conversation brotha.

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 14019
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:19 pm

GT came out after DBZ and everyone had high hopes for it since it was a sequel to the most popular anime TV series in Japan. Everyone was let down because the story, characters and action didn't live up to DBZ. Not to mention GT is just a poor show in general in my opinion. The whole show could have been better from start to finish.
PS4 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
MAL Profile: http://myanimelist.net/profile/Hellspawn28
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GS27/

User avatar
NitroEX
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:21 am
Location: Not America

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by NitroEX » Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:54 pm

1. Goku being the main focus of the show when he had frankly run his course as an interesting protagonist. Toriyama realized this and wisely tried to keep him away from the action as much as possible during the Z portion of the story but Toei were foolish enough to think he could still carry a show. They heavily relied on Goku's dated comic relief which is fine in small doses but in GT he shifted between incompetent clumsy fool to serious and level headed quite often and it was jarring each time. It's like they didn't know if they wanted him to retain his adult personality or not.

2. Not using Pan and Uub to their full potential. Despite the criticism of Pan Toei made the right move making her a permanent member of the cast, only problem was that they did nothing with her. The same goes for Uub who only briefly got the Majuub treatment before being cast aside. Hey that's a nice power up you gave him Toei, only problem is we don't give a fuck about Uub yet because we barely got to know him... you morons!

These characters had been introduced by Toriyama at the end of Z and they were both brimming with potential and mystery surrounding them both. Fans were eager to see how they'd develop and add to the Dragonball world but we didn't get that, instead they take a backseat to Goku when really it should have been the other way around with Goku being the one we rarely see. (Also no Super Saiyan Pan? *facepalm*)

3. Other characters seemingly not doing anything, at all. At the beginning of GT they should have had Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and Piccolo doing something important while Goku, Pan and Trunks were off Dragonball hunting. This would have been a perfect opportunity for them to save the day with Goku finally out of the picture, instead they just sit around with their thumbs up their asses until Baby and Goku get to Earth. Even when they do occasionally cut back to them they're doing nothing of interest, just pedestrian nonsense. Toriyama at least tried to make civilian stuff interesting with Gohan being in High school and meeting interesting humans for instance but in GT they don't even try.

4. Uninspired fights. This may come off as a nitpick to some but honestly the fighting in GT (which was supposed to be a main selling point) was uninspired and pretty boring, compare them to the vicious iconic fights in Z and it's not even close. GT for the most part is filled with tame fighting with the occasional contrived bit of tension that didn't seem to make a difference anyway (Goku's blind?! oh n-... oh he's fine I guess. Nevermind).

5. Ignoring Ultimate Gohan transformation. Doesn't really need further explaining.

6. Strange revamps in appearance for characters like Goten and moustache Vegeta which make them practically unrecognizable. This is one of those dumb ideas that should never have left the planning stage as it just serves to alienate fans of Z even further (never mind the fact that the new designs looked terrible).

7. Unnecessary change in colour pallet. I get that some people like the colours in GT but for me personally it was not an improvement. We have this jarring change of outer space now being coloured blue instead of black, more subdued pastel colours for just about everything when in Z and DB it had all been strong vivid colours. Also for some reason Goku is now tanned which is again, quite jarring and weird since he was always pale.

That's about all I can remember for now though I'm sure I'll think of more later.

User avatar
TheLegend23
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:04 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by TheLegend23 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:08 pm

Oh god the way they did gohan pisses me off on so many levels. He was always easily one of my favorite characters it was soooooooooooo disappointing.

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 14019
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:28 pm

I remember Piccolo's death pissed off a lot of fans. I remember people were like "GT killed off Piccolo in the worst way ever!!" on old message boards and chat rooms.
PS4 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
MAL Profile: http://myanimelist.net/profile/Hellspawn28
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GS27/

User avatar
Eire
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: The Promised Land
Contact:

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Eire » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:05 pm

IIRC the fandom here was mourning Piccolo- really, everyone cried with Gohan. Piccolo deciding that Dragon Balls are the real cause of the troubles, sacrificing himself and using his last moments to help Goku- it was heart b.r.e.a.k.i.n.g. But everything was spoiled by the last moment of episode when they said that Dragon Balls appeared again out of nowhere.
NitroEX did a really good job with explaing specific flaws of DBGT, but this example and this quote sums overally waht turned to be show's Achilles' heel.
The idea of the show was really dope, but I felt like the whole execution was terrible
Look at summary of every saga on wikipedia and think- doesn't it sound great? Bad old wishes turining to be mistakes, Sayians'a past biting them in the butt long after the main actors of war are dead? I feel like producers wanted to bring new ideas, but were afreid at the same time. Something that could top over the top villans of Z, but still playing the tone of old DB. At the end of the day we saw new ideas waving goodbye from the distance, leaving the bitter taste of what could have been.
Per aspera ad astra, man!

Women belong in the kitchen.
Men belong in the kitchen.
Everyone belongs in the kitchen, the kitchen has food

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5137
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:33 pm

I feel the show would be great if...
-They kept the art and colors consistent with Z.
-The music wasn't godawful (in the dub, anyways).
-No kid Goku bullshit.
-It took place at the EoZ instead of the future from there.
-Get rid of of Baby and Super 17 arcs.
-Combine Shadow Dragon and Blackstar Dragon Ball sagas, only with regular dragon balls.
-Make it so different groups of characters head to specific planets to defeat the dragons and get the dragon ball(s) located there. So you could have Goku and Vegeta going to one planet, Gohan and Piccolo go to another, Pan and Uub to yet another, and so on. The dragons' influence on each planet would serve as its own mini-arc, and every character would have a chance to develop.
-After getting all dragon balls, the big main baddy arrives, and this is when Goku can shine.

In other words, GT would be better if it was a completely different show...
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

User avatar
Galan007
Regular
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Galan007 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:01 pm

No Faulconer.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:11 pm

For what it's with, however, that's no less pervasive an idea or conversation ("GT Defense") than this is. No need to rain on someone's parade.
That has not been my experience. More often than not I've seen threads to bash the show.
Abed its just for conversation brotha.
Not in dispute. However I think there's far more positive and constructive ways to start a discussion than creating a thread simply to bash a show.
No Faulconer.
I consider that a positive. While the dub music was terrible, the season sets corrected that and even translated the songs. I wish they had done the same for the other series. I would've loved to hear and English version of Mezase Tenkaichi.
Toriyama realized this and wisely tried to keep him away from the action as much as possible during the Z portion of the story but Toei were foolish enough to think he could still carry a show
Disagreed, he tried to but realized other characters weren't up to the task.
3. Other characters seemingly not doing anything, at all. At the beginning of GT they should have had Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and Piccolo doing something important while Goku, Pan and Trunks were off Dragonball hunting. This would have been a perfect opportunity for them to save the day with Goku finally out of the picture, instead they just sit around with their thumbs up their asses until Baby and Goku get to Earth. Even when they do occasionally cut back to them they're doing nothing of interest, just pedestrian nonsense. Toriyama at least tried to make civilian stuff interesting with Gohan being in High school and meeting interesting humans for instance but in GT they don't even try.
While an interesting idea, it might have bifurcated the focus, and ultimately not been that satisfying since the main character was off in space and the real fight wouldn't begin until Goku got back seeing as how he was the main character of the series.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Marco Polo
I Live Here
Posts: 2965
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:44 pm
Location: France

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Marco Polo » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:30 pm

TheLegend23 wrote:Oh god the way they did gohan pisses me off on so many levels. He was always easily one of my favorite characters it was soooooooooooo disappointing.
He should have developed fighting techniques that rely on science or principles of physics or something. That would have been interesting and would have brought back the feel of the early DB fights in some way (in the sense that they didn't always rely on pure strength and simple ki spam).

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6319
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Georgia (I wish I was in New York)

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:01 pm

They'd already worn out a lot of fresh storylines and directions with the cast by the end of Z, and all they had left was a dull, uninteresting retread of past stuff, and a forced gimmick of Goku being a little kid. And then there's the nerfing of everybody who wasn't Goku - it felt like the movies all over again. Add the blatant plot holes, which were far more egregious than the simple logical inconsistencies in the original Dragon Ball, and you have a recipe for suckage.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World
"They say assholes grow on trees/But I'm just here to trim the leaves"
"If a girl is over 35 and not married, then she must be nuttier than squirrel shit." - Reverend Pastor Father Uncle Ruckus (no relation)

User avatar
Vegard Aune
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:38 pm
Location: Norway

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Vegard Aune » Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:04 pm

I haven't managed to watch past like episode 10 of GT despite having owned the Dragon Box for it for well over a year now (granted much of that time was spent watching the original DB instead)... but one thing that just stood out to me immediately is... the show blatantly ignores how strong its characters are. Like, do they really expect me to believe that footsoldiers with guns, or a big fat guy who can create earthquakes with his whiskers, is a legitimate threat to Goku? He can fly! He can shoot energy-blasts from his hands! He can turn Super Saiyan! He's essentially a billion times stronger than a guy who could single-handedly blow up a planet in an instant! I mean yeah, they reverted him back to a kid and I suppose they might be going by the logic that this makes him weaker than he was, but... even as a kid Goku was immune to bullets. And he can still fly, blow up mountains and so forth. About the only thing he could do before that he can't do anymore is teleport... for some reason. Also Trunks is there, who should by all accounts be just as strong.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20934
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: What made GT so bad ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:17 pm

What made GT bad in my opinion, was its laziness. Granted DB and DBZ had their moments of laziness but in GT it felt more like one moment of laziness stretched out into 64 episodes. The only saving grace of GT was the Shadow Dragons, they were fucking brilliant and such an ingenious idea. But they somehow managed to even screw that up, by essentially turning them into fodder for Goku.

And while were on the subject of fodder for Goku, what really grinds my gears the most about GT is pure amount of focus, or lack thereof, of most of the main cast. If you're not called Goku in GT you're useless and you also loss IQ points more regularly than usual. Gohan conveniently forgetting about his Ultimate/Mystic power up and choosing to be a SSJ, Goten and Trunks not fusing just because and Pan doing... anything. There is reason GT gets the nickname "Goku Time" among the fandom.

The whole situation with Uub is just the biggest load bullshit ever. He got screwed over big time. This was the guy that got hand chosen by Goku himself to be his successor and he gets treated like trash in GT. Even when he fuses with Majin Buu, it doesn't really matter for much. The only big moment he had was turning himself into chocolate, granted it lead to his damaging Oozaru Baby Vegeta from the inside, but in opinion he should have been the main character from the get go instead of having to play a small but somewhat important role in the show.

Also, in my opinion, SSJ4 was where the franchise jumped the shark in my opinion. So I don't really care for it that much.

GT is a classic case of great concepts but fucking awful execution.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Wed May 27, 2015 5:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Post Reply