Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:06 pm

I disagree. Kaioshin provided just as much energy as Vegeta/Goku did, and Gohan slacking off also allowed for things to reach Majin Boo's release. And then Gotenks and Gohan both make screw ups further down the line that make a bad situation worse. By the time the whole mess problem is dealt with, I think that most of the major players aren't in a position to blame Vegeta.
Gohan slacking off was not a big issue. Buu wouldn't have been released without Babidi and Vegeta allowing Babidi to take him over (to the extent that he did) just to settle a score. I refuse to blame Goku until I read where Toriyama planned it all out. Until then, Goku was fighting Vegeta as hard as he could. Kaioshin gave the energy in order to find Babidi's ship.
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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:19 pm

I disagree. Kaioshin provided just as much energy as Vegeta/Goku did, and Gohan slacking off also allowed for things to reach Majin Boo's release. And then Gotenks and Gohan both make screw ups further down the line that make a bad situation worse. By the time the whole mess problem is dealt with, I think that most of the major players aren't in a position to blame Vegeta.
Kaioshin provided them with 40%, Vegeta provided them with 60%. Kaioshin was also doing it to find Babidi, while Vegeta was doing it for the lulz. So no, those aren't remotely comparable.

So? Was he supposed to train based purely on the hunch that they would be guys stronger than Freeza, when has every reason to believe that's not the case? Not to mention that, even without training, he would still have been strong enough to (with Kaioshin's help) defeat Dabra and prevent Buu's release had Vegeta not pulled a Vegeta.

While it's a common fan belief that he did, I don't actually believe Gotenks screwed up against Buu. He wasn't able to defeat Buu because Buu spent half the fight suppressing his ki and hiding in a hole to outlast Gotenks' fusion time. Gotenks' SS3 was always going to last for 5 minutes, and he was pretty much fighting Buu non-stop after transforming. All his screwing around was limited to base/SS.

What did Gohan do that was so bad? Get absorbed? I'd hardly put "losing a fight" in the same league as "intentionally released Majin Buu". Especially since Majin Buu was smart enough to use a recently separated piece of himself to do it, and stealthy enough that Gohan didn't know until it was too late.

I think that anyone could blame Vegeta except maybe Goku, since Buu wouldn't have been around if not for him in the first place.
That's still not true though. There are only three times when he makes things worse by going against the group: helping Cell (joint effort with Kuririn), turning Majin, and the first time he crushes the potara. These are obviously not acceptable practices, and the group should have attempted to exercise some control over him for sure, but his presence is far from a liability. Killing him wouldn't help them much.
There is exactly one arc in the entire post-Namek series where Vegeta was more of a help than a hindrance: the android arc, specifically the fight with Android 19. Even that's very arguable, as I think that, with the element of surprise on his side, Piccolo could have defeated 19 himself before stomping 20 the same way he did in the series. And Trunks was already on the way just in case Piccolo failed.

In every other scenario, taking out Vegeta means everything gets way easier or doesn't change. If Vegeta dies to 18, then Trunks goes into the ROSAT alone, comes out, and kills Semi-Cell and the androids immediately, ending the plot. If Vegeta dies to Cell, everything happens identically at the Cell Games, except Gohan beats Cell in a straight fight rather than relying on the beam struggle. If Vegeta dies at the Cell Games and is never brought back, Goku and Gohan have some quality father-son bonding by wasting Dabra and Babidi and preventing Buu's release. If Vegeta dies to Super Buu thus leaving Goku to fight Pure Buu alone, no one is there to talk Goku out of just bringing Gohan.

Sure, some of his actions end up having a net positive effect (the Buu arc not happening is an inferior path to the Buu arc happening, as it gave them more experience and two powerful allies), but that's absolutely not something you can give him credit for.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by Saiga » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:36 pm

ABED wrote:
I disagree. Kaioshin provided just as much energy as Vegeta/Goku did, and Gohan slacking off also allowed for things to reach Majin Boo's release. And then Gotenks and Gohan both make screw ups further down the line that make a bad situation worse. By the time the whole mess problem is dealt with, I think that most of the major players aren't in a position to blame Vegeta.
Gohan slacking off was not a big issue. Buu wouldn't have been released without Babidi and Vegeta allowing Babidi to take him over (to the extent that he did) just to settle a score. I refuse to blame Goku until I read where Toriyama planned it all out. Until then, Goku was fighting Vegeta as hard as he could. Kaioshin gave the energy in order to find Babidi's ship.
Gohan slacking off is an issue, because he could've defeated Dabra and then everyone could go home.

Boo wouldn't have been released without Kaioshin provided that energy, either. It's the same situation with Cell reaching his Perfect Form - it requires one other person to contribute as much as Vegeta is.

Goku's entirely to blame. It doesn't matter at all whether Toriyama planned it, because you can't reconcile Goku doing his best at Super Saiyan 2 with Goku having Super Saiyan 3 all along. The story doesn't work like that.
Kaioshin provided them with 40%, Vegeta provided them with 60%. Kaioshin was also doing it to find Babidi, while Vegeta was doing it for the lulz. So no, those aren't remotely comparable.
Pure guess. Both provided "about half", any difference is negligible and one wouldn't have lead to Boo's revival without the other. Vegeta also didn't do it deliberately, it was merely an outcome of what he actually wanted. Kaioshin deliberately handing over the energy is pretty damn stupid, and even though they needed to find the ship, they didn't need to allow Babidi to actually fill Boo's shell with it. They'd found him. There was really not much point sitting back and letting that happen.
So? Was he supposed to train based purely on the hunch that they would be guys stronger than Freeza, when has every reason to believe that's not the case? Not to mention that, even without training, he would still have been strong enough to (with Kaioshin's help) defeat Dabra and prevent Buu's release had Vegeta not pulled a Vegeta.
He doesn't really have any reason to assume that's not the case. Even though Freeza was well known as the strongest in the universe, we've already seen the Androids and Cell show up after him. While his slacking is perfectly understandable, it's still a mistake. He chose to fight Dabra alone when he wasn't prepared for it. If Vegeta had actually just stepped in and finished it, that too would have meant no Boo.
While it's a common fan belief that he did, I don't actually believe Gotenks screwed up against Buu. He wasn't able to defeat Buu because Buu spent half the fight suppressing his ki and hiding in a hole to outlast Gotenks' fusion time. Gotenks' SS3 was always going to last for 5 minutes, and he was pretty much fighting Buu non-stop after transforming. All his screwing around was limited to base/SS.
I don't think Boo was deliberately hiding in the hole, just recovering from Gotenks' attack. Otherwise there isn't much reason for Boo to retaliate with his blast. Also, Gotenks screwing up in base/SS still matters, because then he got stuck in the room and wasted some of his SS3 time breaking out and chatting with Piccolo. Given that he appeared to be just seconds away from killing Boo, that's a screw up.

I wasn't actually referring to that, though, but getting absorbed. I guess this is more a Goten/Trunks screw up, since they chose to fuse when Boo was goading them into it when it wasn't really needed.
What did Gohan do that was so bad? Get absorbed? I'd hardly put "losing a fight" in the same league as "intentionally released Majin Buu". Especially since Majin Buu was smart enough to use a recently separated piece of himself to do it, and stealthy enough that Gohan didn't know until it was too late.
Screwed around with Boo, let Goten/Trunks fuse, didn't catch an earring, turned his back on Majin Boo to look for it... he left himself wiiiiide open when he really shouldn't have.

Boo wouldn't have been around if it weren't for at least the three of Goku, Kaioshin and Vegeta. Boo wouldn't have been as big a problem if not for Gohan and Goten/Trunks/Gotenks, and they don't ever make up for their mistakes. Goku, Vegeta and Kaioshin did at least do some good after their screw ups.
Last edited by Saiga on Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:53 pm

Pure guess. Both provided "about half", any difference is negligible and one wouldn't have lead to Boo's revival without the other. Vegeta also didn't do it deliberately, it was merely an outcome of what he actually wanted. Kaioshin deliberately handing over the energy is pretty damn stupid, and even though they needed to find the ship, they didn't need to allow Babidi to actually fill Boo's shell with it. They'd found him. There was really not much point sitting back and letting that happen.
It's not a guess. We see the energy meter after Babidi takes Gohan's energy. And it was "close to half" in Babidi's case, not "about half". So yes, Vegeta's contribution being the majority is confirmed. I would also contest the idea that Kaioshin's contribution actually mattered. He and Goku would have only had to fight for another minute or two to get an extra 40%, considering how quickly they reached 60%, and they didn't stop fighting until Buu's ki grabbed them.
He doesn't really have any reason to assume that's not the case. Even though Freeza was well known as the strongest in the universe, we've already seen the Androids and Cell show up after him. While his slacking is perfectly understandable, it's still a mistake. He chose to fight Dabra alone when he wasn't prepared for it. If Vegeta had actually just stepped in and finished it, that too would have meant no Boo.
The androids and Cell were created on Earth by one specific guy in one specific facility using specific technology. What reason does he have to believe that everyone else has this technology too? Or that it even matters, considering anyone, even the little kids, can waste the androids at this point?

It wouldn't have mattered that much. Dabra being around was completely irrelevant to Buu's revival outside of distracting Gohan. Babidi could still just make Vegeta the offer, and Vegeta would still take it. Goku would still demand to fight Vegeta, and he would still use SS2 to do it. Buu would still get revived. Gohan only chose to fight Dabra because he didn't know his exact strength, and we don't know if he would have asked for help if he truly started losing, since Dabra pulled out so quickly.
I don't think Boo was deliberately hiding in the hole, just recovering from Gotenks' attack. Otherwise there isn't much reason for Boo to retaliate with his blast
I don't think so, since we see Buu regenerate from a much more thorough beating in mere seconds later, so there was no reason for him to spend so long down there. Not to mention that Gotenks actually thought he killed Buu (at first he accused him of hiding), which wouldn't be the case if he was still projecting an enormous, living ki.
Also, Gotenks screwing up in base/SS still matters, because then he got stuck in the room and wasted some of his SS3 time breaking out and chatting with Piccolo. Given that he appeared to be just seconds away from killing Boo, that's a screw up.
Maybe, but considering Buu's reaction and dialogue later, I highly doubt those few seconds actually mattered.
I wasn't actually referring to that, though, but getting absorbed. I guess this is more a Goten/Trunks screw up, since they chose to fuse when Boo was goading them into it when it wasn't really needed.
Again, I don't think losing a fight is comparable to what Vegeta did.
Screwed around with Boo,
How so? He was smashing Buu until Buu revealed his plan and started detonating himself. After that, Gohan really had no choice but to run, because if he stayed and tried to attack Buu, Piccolo/Goten/Trunks would die and he would at the very least be grievously injured, while Buu would be fine.
let Goten/Trunks fuse,
I don't see how that's a problem. You yourself labeled Buu's absorption ability as an ass pull. From Gohan's POV, he can just jump in at any time to roflstomp Buu if Gotenks starts having trouble (which he shouldn't, as Gohan just witnessed him smack Buu around).
didn't catch an earring,
That's more the universe's fault than his. It suddenly forgot how its own speed feats were supposed to work. You'll see a similar thing happening a few minutes later with Buu. Multiple times.
turned his back on Majin Boo to look for it... he left himself wiiiiide open when he really shouldn't have.
What was he supposed to do?
Boo wouldn't have been around if it weren't for at least the three of Goku, Kaioshin and Vegeta. Boo wouldn't have been as big a problem if not for Gohan and Goten/Trunks/Gotenks, and they don't ever make up for their mistakes. Goku, Vegeta and Kaioshin did at least do some good after their screw ups.
Again, I don't think losing a fight is comparable to intentionally releasing the demon simply because you give so few shits. I also don't think causing the problem is comparable to failing to solve it. Especially since Super Buu could actually make plans and take pragmatic courses of action, somewhat justifying screw-ups against him, while Babidi was a moron who had literally nothing to offer Vegeta. Vegeta could have just taken the power-up and decided to fight Goku in five minutes, after Kaioshin took the ball.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:57 pm

Goku's entirely to plan. It doesn't matter at all whether Toriyama planned it, because you can't reconcile Goku doing his best at Super Saiyan 2 with Goku having Super Saiyan 3 all along. The story doesn't work like that.
He's not to blame, much less ENTIRELY. It does matter whether he planned because that's the reason you can't reconcile those things. Toriyama has to create some ridiculous leaps on logic on the part of his characters in order for the story to make sense in retrospect. If he know that he would create SS3 all along, then why would Goku have intentionally let Buu out? What does Goku gain from that? A fight that he couldn't possibly be interested in since it doesn't push him to his limits. Plus when has Goku ever let someone like Buu free without intending to fight him? The only thing that makes sense is that it was a retcon to cover up for lack of planning.

I have no idea what you mean by "the story doesn't work like that".

Had Kaioshin not done what he did, would they have ever found Babidi's ship?

The fight had just begun, and we hadn't seen Gohan at his best so there's no reason to think he wouldn't have eventually won had Dabura not seen Vegeta getting upset. I still don't get why so many are quick to blame the heroes, but not Vegeta or heaven forbid BABIDI!
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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by LordCrumb » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:52 am

Haven't you guys been warned before about breaking down posts into sentences to reply to stuff?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 26#p856126

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 08#p856208

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by EmmaWinters » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:01 am

Probably best to let the mods handle it.
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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by superfunk » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:40 am

ABED wrote:
superfunk wrote:everything we do is selfish, somethings are just more selfish than others.
Sadly, that's not true. We don't always do what's in our long term self interest. Bulma foolishly put her infant son in harm's way just to get a closer look. How is that in her self interest? Not only is she in danger, but her baby whom she loves is in imminent danger.

Vegeta foolishly picked a fight with Freeza and even goaded him into transforming. In the end, it cost him his life.
There is a difference between doing something that is smart and good for you and doing something selfish(they will both be selfish in the end anyway) How could you think Bulma bringing her child into danger just to get a closer look, just to show her friends her kid, is not selfish? it's very selfish! just because something isn't good for you in the long run certainly doesn't mean it isn't selfish. Every Thing down to Jesus dying on the cross(if you believe in such a thing) is selfish, as he supposedly loved all humans, if he didn't love them, it wouldn't have happened.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:05 am

superfunk wrote:There is a difference between doing something that is smart and good for you and doing something selfish(they will both be selfish in the end anyway) How could you think Bulma bringing her child into danger just to get a closer look, just to show her friends her kid, is not selfish? it's very selfish! just because something isn't good for you in the long run certainly doesn't mean it isn't selfish. Every Thing down to Jesus dying on the cross(if you believe in such a thing) is selfish, as he supposedly loved all humans, if he didn't love them, it wouldn't have happened.
No there isn't actually. The term got perverted when all it means is to do something for one's self. That doesn't imply any sort of moral judgment, nor does that specify what is actually in one's long term self interest. Putting yourself and your kid in iminant danger isn't selfish because she cares about her child. Trunks is a great value TO HER. You've created this package deal when you use a term like that in the way you do. You've lumped in doing dangerous things like Bulma did with for instance, Goku's rigorous training to better himself. One is an example of someone doing something to better himself, the other is someone not thinking things through and trying to catch a peak of something on a whim.
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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by superfunk » Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:33 pm

ABED wrote:
superfunk wrote:There is a difference between doing something that is smart and good for you and doing something selfish(they will both be selfish in the end anyway) How could you think Bulma bringing her child into danger just to get a closer look, just to show her friends her kid, is not selfish? it's very selfish! just because something isn't good for you in the long run certainly doesn't mean it isn't selfish. Every Thing down to Jesus dying on the cross(if you believe in such a thing) is selfish, as he supposedly loved all humans, if he didn't love them, it wouldn't have happened.
No there isn't actually. The term got perverted when all it means is to do something for one's self. That doesn't imply any sort of moral judgment, nor does that specify what is actually in one's long term self interest. Putting yourself and your kid in iminant danger isn't selfish because she cares about her child. Trunks is a great value TO HER. You've created this package deal when you use a term like that in the way you do. You've lumped in doing dangerous things like Bulma did with for instance, Goku's rigorous training to better himself. One is an example of someone doing something to better himself, the other is someone not thinking things through and trying to catch a peak of something on a whim.
The whole point is that in anything you do it is always primarily for yourself, thus semantically selfish. Even if you do something that benefits others more than you on a surface level, It's still primarily for you, as you care more about their benefit than your own, thus you are still doing what YOU care for most.Now i am not saying Bulma cares more about having a closer look than her child, but it is still something she decided to do because she wanted to and disregarded consequences that could be detrimental to herself later,the decisions don't have to be rationally thought out and weighted to see potential gain and loss, she did what was most appealing to her in that moment of decision, which is primarily for her, thus selfish. It is an inescapable fact brought to you by English and Philosophy facilities around the world.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:14 pm

If that's true, the term is so vague that it's completely unusable. It lumps everything together. You can't lump in Jim Jones' followers drinking the Kool-Aid with a Z Fighter eating a senzu to heal their injuries. One shows disregard for life, the other is sustaining it. Bulma's decision wasn't selfish because it showed disregard for herself. Having a child is selfish, shacking up with a genocidal maniac like Vegeta, not the smartest move, ergo not selfish. Anyway, I think we're getting off track.
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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by superfunk » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:25 pm

For deeper explanations you would have to look into hedonistic utilitarianism and other subsets, a very broad range of things are selfish, you have to use other words to further explain yourself, one word won't do. Things that don't benefit yourself can most definitely still be selfish, Shooting up heroin isn't the smartest move but i don't see how anybody can say that isn't selfish. Like i said, she did what was most appealing to herself at that very time, which is obviously primarily for herself, which is obviously selfish. But yes it is a bit vague, i am right but most would say i am being pedantic.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:45 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:You just said he wouldn't know something unless someone told him he could know it. I'd like proof of this claim.
I'm not saying he doesn't know anything at all unless you ask him (he knows Japanese, what his powers are, who his creator is, what his name is, etc), but as far as we know, he can answer any question you ask him with his wish-granting powers.
Toriyama approved GT too.
He never approved it as part of the manga story, and he never wrote its story. With BoG, he wrote it as if he was continuing the manga serialization, and even ignored anime-only things like Gregory & GT (though the character designs in the movie are based on the anime for obvious reasons), and approved everything there is into it & changed everything he didn't like. He didn't just approve it.
Prove that Toriyama wrote the specific line that Vegeta was a good guy, and prove that he wrote it with the intent of Vegeta being a good guy rather than the ritual being fucked as Roshi and Buu speculated.
I don't have to, if Toriyama didn't want it to be there, it wouldn't be there.
He hadn't even hugged his 8 year old son before the Majin Buu arc. What does that tell you?
That Vegeta is too shy to show his true feelings.
Trunks wasn't training for martial arts. He didn't want to train for martial arts.
He didn't want to train for martial arts? Where are you getting that from? Was Goten also an abusive friend for having him "play fight" with him for years?
Murdering hundreds of people and laughing about it doesn't make him an evil person. Right...
That was his job/hobby, which he loved in the past, but this isn't what we were talking about. We were talking about Vegeta's obsession with Goku in Boo arc. During the Boo arc, the only evil acts he did were when he fell under Babidi's spell, which affected his personality. But I'm talking mostly about Vegeta after his death against Boo. In the beginning of Boo arc, he had became softer, and he hated that, so he wanted to become pure evil again, and fell under Babidi's spell. After that, he regretted doing that, and killed himself against Boo in order to fix the shit he had done. And from that point on, he never did anything really bad, other than bad decisions.
No he doesn't. Bringing Gohan- or fusing into Gogeta- will result in them instantly winning. He knows this. He still chooses to gamble everyone's lives against their consent anyway, partly because he wants them to take responsibility for his bad deeds, and partly out of pride.
This isn't how he sees it though, he sees it as if it's the Earthlings responsibility. Which is dumb & wrong, but that doesn't make him evil. The pride thing makes him selfish, not evil.
Because he's not omniscient, and even if he was, him not classing Vegeta as one of the "really, REALLY bad guys" is so vague that it's meaningless as any form of proof.
Why?
Nope. There's zero proof of that, and he never shows an ounce of remorse.
He never shows any happiness about doing that either. And if he felt good about it, Porunga wouldn't have brought him back, and the SSGod ritual would have failed.
Nope, he repeatedly endangered the Earth to stroke his own ego.

Nope. If he was really placing the Earth above his pride, he would have fused with Goku.
By acting as Beerus' servant & dancing queen? I'm talking about BoG.
They know him for being an evil mass murdering asshole because he is an evil mass murdering asshole.
Was.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:10 am

ABED wrote:Even if you don't, you are making it like what she did was ever on the level as what Vegeta did. Most of that is juvenile crap.
I'm not. I just find it laughable how you say "What did Bulma do?" like she never did anything wrong when even Goku at the first arc questioned her morality.
It is selfish to care about your own well being, and there's nothing wrong with that. The cave was collapsing all around her. And her life should be her number one priority.
If she had said that it'd was too late to go back for Goku then it wouldn't be an issue but she flat-out says that she's more important than anything else in the world to her when Kuririn's begging her not to leave Goku for dead.
He had a weapon and chucked her car, she had every right to protect herself. She was going on an adventure to find the DBs, I don't see what's wrong with that.
It's at his house, and if she showed fear or regret in prospect of killing Goku then it can be seen as self-defense but the panels clearly show she did it out of spite and annoyance than fear (even shouting "You brat!"). Also consider Goku wasn't striking at her at all.
First off, you seem to imply that judgment is automatically negative. To judge simply means to reach a conclusion about something. I actually do hold it against her that she would fall for someone like Vegeta, but that's not what you fault her for, you are faulting her for shooting a guy that was going to attack her.
I'm faulting her for plenty of others reasons, that one is just an example of how Bulma is/was morally flawed. And he was attacking the "monster" (the Jeep), not Bulma herself.

Anyways, I agree with the others being in no room to blame Vegeta for the Majin Boo's resurrection since they're all pretty much are equally at fault. Kaioshin clearly didn't do his homework, kept shutting down/trying to shut down their methods of stopping Babidi even though all of them were quicker (and less risky) than Kaioshin's, and like Saigia said he fed Majin Boo almost half the energy needed by allowing those thugs steal Gohan's energy alone. Goku had the power to end it all just by himself but never used it for flimsy reasons, and Gohan should have spoken out against Goku and Vegeta, and be real with them.

Vegeta letting his mind by controlled simply quickened the process. Majin Boo still could have been resurrected just by continuing the battle with Gohan and Dabra.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:34 am

I'm not saying he doesn't know anything at all unless you ask him (he knows Japanese, what his powers are, who his creator is, what his name is, etc), but as far as we know, he can answer any question you ask him with his wish-granting powers.
You're saying that he doesn't know something until you tell him he can know it. In which case he then automatically knows it. I'd like proof of this claim.
He never approved it as part of the manga story, and he never wrote its story. With BoG, he wrote it as if he was continuing the manga serialization, and even ignored anime-only things like Gregory & GT (though the character designs in the movie are based on the anime for obvious reasons), and approved everything there is into it & changed everything he didn't like. He didn't just approve it.
He didn't approve BOG as part of the manga story, either. Because it's still not a part of the manga.

Nope, you don't get to bring up him ignoring anime-only stuff as evidence, and then in the same breath bring up BOG having anime-only stuff. Like Piccolo having five fingers.
I don't have to, if Toriyama didn't want it to be there, it wouldn't be there.
So, in other words, you have no proof? Where's this proof that Toriyama perfectly dictated every little thing about the film?
That Vegeta is too shy to show his true feelings.
That's a funny way of saying "is emotionally abusive".
He didn't want to train for martial arts? Where are you getting that from? Was Goten also an abusive friend for having him "play fight" with him for years?
Goten and Trunks weren't training for martial arts, they were play fighting. That is different. Vegeta was abusive, because no rational kid would assume that their father would punch them in the face like Vegeta did. Especially when his challenge was just to try to touch him.

I'm getting it from the fact that he wasn't training and didn't want to. He even rejected Vegeta's initial challenge until he offered to take Trunks to the amusement park.
That was his job/hobby, which he loved in the past, but this isn't what we were talking about. We were talking about Vegeta's obsession with Goku in Boo arc. During the Boo arc, the only evil acts he did were when he fell under Babidi's spell, which affected his personality. But I'm talking mostly about Vegeta after his death against Boo. In the beginning of Boo arc, he had became softer, and he hated that, so he wanted to become pure evil again, and fell under Babidi's spell. After that, he regretted doing that, and killed himself against Boo in order to fix the shit he had done. And from that point on, he never did anything really bad, other than bad decisions.
Obsession caused Vegeta to do many evil things, like kill hundreds of people. He does not get a free pass. Give me proof that his personality was affected by Babidi's spell. That's going to be pretty hard, considering that Vegeta himself specifically stated that this was all him, and he outright disobeyed Babidi not two minutes after getting the power-up.

"He didn't do anything bad, except these bad things".
This isn't how he sees it though, he sees it as if it's the Earthlings responsibility. Which is dumb & wrong, but that doesn't make him evil. The pride thing makes him selfish, not evil.
One thing it doesn't make him is "good". This is my point. His "contribution" to the Buu fight wasn't a good deed. It was just him being a selfish dick again. It in no way redeems him for the evil acts he performed his whole life.
Why?
-We don't know what standards Porunga is judging on.
-We don't know how this judgement works (does he read intentions at the moment of revival? Does he tally up all good and bad deeds? Does he even care?).
-We don't know if Porunga's judgement is the same as Emna Daio's.
-We don't know anything about it. So, again, it's meaningless.
He never shows any happiness about doing that either. And if he felt good about it, Porunga wouldn't have brought him back, and the SSGod ritual would have failed.
Typically, horrible people don't bask in the joy of the evil acts they commit. They just don't give a shit.

Again, proof. Your argument has devolved into "I'm right because I'm right".

You: Vegeta regretted his past sins, because Porunga brought him back.
Me: There's zero proof he felt regret for his sins, and zero proof that Porunga even considered that.
You: No, because Porunga brought him back.
By acting as Beerus' servant & dancing queen? I'm talking about BoG.
I don't care about BOG. But, even when considering it, he's not an especially good person there. If he doesn't bow to Beerus, he dies.
Was.
Is. Those people he killed are still dead, last I checked.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:54 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:You're saying that he doesn't know something until you tell him he can know it. In which case he then automatically knows it. I'd like proof of this claim.
I don't understand what you mean. If you ask him a question, he will answer it because he has the power to grant almost any wish. We see it in the manga, where he (Porunga) can distinguish who is good & how is bad, and in BoG, where he (Shenlong) answered Goku's question about how to make a Super Saiyan God. Do you have any proof that he would be unable to answer a question if he was asked?
He didn't approve BOG as part of the manga story, either. Because it's still not a part of the manga.
Well, Toriyama has referenced Beerus in 2 unrelated to BoG interviews, and referenced Super Saiyan God in Jaco, which is a tie-in to the original manga. Plus, BoG is said to take place between chapters 517 & 518 of the manga, not episodes 288 & 289 of the anime, it is said to take place in the official history of DB, unlike the other movies which are spin-offs & side-stories, and it is officially recognized as a Toriyama work. These are enough for me to treat it as equal to the manga.
Nope, you don't get to bring up him ignoring anime-only stuff as evidence, and then in the same breath bring up BOG having anime-only stuff. Like Piccolo having five fingers.
I can, because Watanabe himself said that they are ignoring GT because it isn't part of the original. They are ignoring the anime, they are only using the anime designs because BoG is an anime. The story, however, follows the manga & ignores the anime.
So, in other words, you have no proof? Where's this proof that Toriyama perfectly dictated every little thing about the film?
It's all over the BoG interviews. Toriyama took & rewrote the script as he liked it, he gave the movie a lighter tone, he replaced random thieves with the Pilaf Gang, he changed Beerus from an evil lizard that infects people to a cat-dick, he created Whis, he changed Kuririn's & #18's wedding party into Bulma's birthday party, he created Super Saiyan God as he liked, he designed everything there is, he added Vegeta's rage boost scene. He accepted Toei's ideas that he liked, and rejected those that he didn't like. He was involved so much to the movie that the movie is officially recognized as a Toriyama work.
Goten and Trunks weren't training for martial arts, they were play fighting. That is different. Vegeta was abusive, because no rational kid would assume that their father would punch them in the face like Vegeta did. Especially when his challenge was just to try to touch him.
If Trunks didn't want to train, he wouldn't train. We never saw Trunks complaining about training. Vegeta acts as if he is a strict father, but he is doing Trunks' favors. The end of the manga proves that if Trunks doesn't want to do training, he won't do training, as he was skipping training for 10 years to the point he didn't make any significant gains. Though Vegeta did threaten Trunks to enter the 28th TB, but that doesn't make him evil.
I'm getting it from the fact that he wasn't training and didn't want to. He even rejected Vegeta's initial challenge until he offered to take Trunks to the amusement park.
What are you talking about? Vegeta told him to get out because it was too much for him, and Trunks insisted that he wanted to stay because he didn't want to lose to Goten. Trunks didn't want to fight Vegeta because Vegeta was stronger than him, not because Vegeta was forcing him to do it. You are twisting the actual events to make Vegeta look like he is worse than he is.
Give me proof that his personality was affected by Babidi's spell.
Vegeta was annoyed that he had become softer, so he fell under Babidi to become pure evil again, and he believed that he no longer cared about his family & Earth anymore. It turns out he still cared, but the mere fact that he thought he had completely changed suggest that there was a change in him.
One thing it doesn't make him is "good". This is my point. His "contribution" to the Buu fight wasn't a good deed. It was just him being a selfish dick again. It in no way redeems him for the evil acts he performed his whole life.
When did I ever say that?
-We don't know what standards Porunga is judging on.
-We don't know how this judgement works (does he read intentions at the moment of revival? Does he tally up all good and bad deeds? Does he even care?).
-We don't know if Porunga's judgement is the same as Emna Daio's.
-We don't know anything about it. So, again, it's meaningless.
How do you think Porunga judged Vegeta? The way I see it, he read his mind, checked his intentions, and saw that he no longer was a really bad guy. That's the most logical way for Porunga to judge Vegeta. Enma Daio on the other hand works like a judge "you may have regretted these things, and maybe you have become a better person now, but I don't give a shit because you did these horrible things in the past so you're gonna pay". Porunga isn't trying to punish anyone, he just distinguishes the good from the bad.
Again, proof. Your argument has devolved into "I'm right because I'm right".
Same goes for you. Actually, you are even twisting facts by saying that Vegeta is lying to himself, and that Vegeta still goes around & kills people, and that he hates, abuses, and beats his family, and that he doesn't care about Earth, while the manga contradicts all these things.
I don't care about BOG. But, even when considering it, he's not an especially good person there. If he doesn't bow to Beerus, he dies.
But he didn't do it because of himself, he did it to protect the Earth.
Is. Those people he killed are still dead, last I checked.
But he isn't killing people anymore, so was.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by Lumos » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:58 pm

Is it just me who's been seriously reminded of the Buffyverse's Angel whilst reading through this thread?

Without wanting to spoil anything too much, Angel used to be the biggest, meanest bad guy around until 'one soul to go' transformed him into by and large a force for good. Over the course of both Buffy and Angel then, Angel spends a lot of his time trying to repent for his past actions and finds it isn't always an easy road.

Now I'm not trying to suggest Angel and Vegeta are one in the same – a few character traits aside, perhaps – but rather that might have been a more appropriate ending? Vegeta realising he has committed terrible acts that he can never really forgive himself for and actively trying to do something about it?

(I've only just started watching the series subbed and the newest release I've seen is the 2008 Jump Festa special so I apologise if this has already been touched upon in existing material.)
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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by rereboy » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:11 pm

Not quite. Angel can't actually be held accountable for the actions of Angelus. Angelus is essentially a different version of him, an incomplete version, a soulless version. It would be like holding a schizophrenic accountable for any crime he might have committed while he was having visions after he was cured of his disease.

Angel wants to atone and help people because, even though he's not morally responsible for the actions of Angelus, he still feels very bad for everything that Angelus did. Angel feels that his own existence in this world ultimately caused more harm than good because Angelus was born from him, and so, he wants his existence to have meant something better than that for the world.

Its a very distinct case from Vegeta. Vegeta never actually clearly feels remorse for anything that he did. He just slowly changes his priorities and gives up his obsession with being the best and beating Goku. I would say that it would have been appropriate to have Vegeta feel some remorse. He's actually morally guilty, while Angel is not.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by hleV » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:38 pm

Vegeta is useful for the universe, so he cannot be put where he belongs, which is Hell. He would still go to Hell after his final death.

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Re: Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:24 am

rereboy wrote:Not quite. Angel can't actually be held accountable for the actions of Angelus. Angelus is essentially a different version of him, an incomplete version, a soulless version. It would be like holding a schizophrenic accountable for any crime he might have committed while he was having visions after he was cured of his disease.
Angel wants to atone and help people because, even though he's not morally responsible for the actions of Angelus, he still feels very bad for everything that Angelus did. Angel feels that his own existence in this world ultimately caused more harm than good because Angelus was born from him, and so, he wants his existence to have meant something better than that for the world.
Its a very distinct case from Vegeta. Vegeta never actually clearly feels remorse for anything that he did. He just slowly changes his priorities and gives up his obsession with being the best and beating Goku. I would say that it would have been appropriate to have Vegeta feel some remorse. He's actually morally guilty, while Angel is not.
Agreed. The line gets a little blurred in the Buffyverse because the writers played up the recovering addict analogy, but yes, Angelus and Angel are two completely separate beings. Vegeta has no such claim. He didn't even do it under duress.
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