Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[ABED]

Training is being insecure? I might not know what training is but I do know what macho insecure BS is. It wasn't even training. He was testing to see how fast and strong his kid was.

Vegeta hit him by reflex, and when you are in the Gravity Room, you are doing training. In martial arts, the trainer will hit you randomly when you are not even looking, not to mention when he says you to hit him.

He wasn't training Trunks. They weren't working out together, and the training had stopped. Vegeta wasn't sharpening Trunks' skills. He was seeing how good Trunks was, Vegeta just said that after the fact. There was no reason for Trunks to infer that Vegeta would hit back other than his dad is a prick. It served no purpose.

I just wonder how ABED images the real combat training wihout suprise attacks.

It wasn't combat training. They were in the gravity room, but at that point they weren't training. And this is such a silly comment, even during combat training, they are aware that they are doing combat training. They won't know where the attacks are coming from but they know they're coming.

[rereboy]

Vegeta didn't say they were training. In fact, its implied that he had never trained with him. Vegeta just saw that Trunks could turn SSJ, got curious and literally said "hey, try to hit me. If you succeed I'll take you to the park", and when Trunks tried to and Vegeta started to have some difficulty dodging the attacks he instinctively hit back, punching him in the face.

So, it had nothing to do with training. Vegeta just wanted to see how strong Trunks was and then punched him instinctively. It was never about training him or giving him a lesson. In fact, Vegeta never even claims that it was a lesson, he just shrugs Trunks' complains by saying that he hadn't said that he wouldn't hit back, masking his awkwardness at having being put in a position where his instincts kicked in by Trunks' attacks which resulted in punching him. To further mask his awkwardness he quickly says that he will take Trunks to the park even though Trunks hadn't exactly succeeded in clearly hitting him.

[ABED]

Vegeta didn't say they were training. In fact, its implied that he had never trained with him. Vegeta just saw that Trunks could turn SSJ, got curious and literally said "hey, try to hit me. If you succeed I'll take you to the park", and when Trunks tried to and Vegeta started to have some difficulty dodging the attacks he instinctively hit back, punching him in the face.

So, it had nothing to do with training. Vegeta just wanted to see how strong Trunks was and then punched him instinctively. It was never about training him or giving him a lesson. In fact, Vegeta never even claims that it was a lesson, he just shrugs Trunks' complains by saying that he hadn't said that he wouldn't hit back, masking his awkwardness at having being put in a position where his instincts kicked in by Trunks' attacks which resulted in punching him. To further mask his awkwardness he quickly says that he will take Trunks to the park even though Trunks hadn't exactly succeeded in clearly hitting him.

Agreed. I'll admit that I haven't seen the anime in a while, so I don't remember how quickly he hits him after. Is there a slight pause as he gets angry, or is it a split second later? It's difficult to tell in the manga since it's two panels and anyone can infer either scenario.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He wasn't training Trunks. They weren't working out together, and the training had stopped. Vegeta wasn't sharpening Trunks' skills. He was seeing how good Trunks was, Vegeta just said that after the fact. There was no reason for Trunks to infer that Vegeta would hit back other than his dad is a prick. It served no purpose.

Sparring isn't the only kind of training there is. If you don't believe that this was training, then you have no idea what training is.

[ABED]

He wasn't training Trunks. They weren't working out together, and the training had stopped. Vegeta wasn't sharpening Trunks' skills. He was seeing how good Trunks was, Vegeta just said that after the fact. There was no reason for Trunks to infer that Vegeta would hit back other than his dad is a prick. It served no purpose.

Sparring isn't the only kind of training there is. If you don't believe that this was training, then you have no idea what training is.

I don't like when people do this, instead of explaining something, they just tell them, you don't know what X is. This isn't helpful, and I do know there's more than just sparring, but this was nothing of the sort. It wasn't about improving Trunks' fighting, it was a test. There's a difference between a test and training.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He wasn't training Trunks. They weren't working out together, and the training had stopped. Vegeta wasn't sharpening Trunks' skills. He was seeing how good Trunks was, Vegeta just said that after the fact. There was no reason for Trunks to infer that Vegeta would hit back other than his dad is a prick. It served no purpose.

Sparring isn't the only kind of training there is. If you don't believe that this was training, then you have no idea what training is.

I don't like when people do this, instead of explaining something, they just tell them, you don't know what X is. This isn't helpful, and I do know there's more than just sparring, but this was nothing of the sort. It wasn't about improving Trunks' fighting, it was a test. There's a difference between a test and training.

They were inside the Gravity Room, doing training, and during the training, Vegeta tested him, and gave him a surprise attack, which is a normal thing during training. In martial arts, the trainer will hit you even when you aren't training at all. You may disagree with this, but that's just how things are.

[ABED]

They were inside the Gravity Room, doing training, and during the training, Vegeta tested him, and gave him a surprise attack, which is a normal thing during training. In martial arts, the trainer will hit you even when you aren't training at all. You may disagree with this, but that's just how things are.

Trunks was training and so was Vegeta. Vegeta saw that Trunks could turn Super Saiyan, so he decided to stop what he was doing (i.e., stop training) to test his son's skills, ergo they weren't training. It doesn't fit the concept as he wasn't sharpening his skills or teaching him anything. The surprise attack wasn't to teach him a lesson, it was him being a-hole.

What martial arts school are you going to where they will hit you when you aren't training you?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Trunks was training and so was Vegeta. Vegeta saw that Trunks could turn Super Saiyan, so he decided to stop what he was doing (i.e., stop training) to test his son's skills, ergo they weren't training. It doesn't fit the concept as he wasn't sharpening his skills or teaching him anything. The surprise attack wasn't to teach him a lesson, it was him being a-hole.

No one ever said the training was over.

What martial arts school are you going to where they will hit you when you aren't training you?

I was doing Karate as a kid, and I've been doing Kick-Box for 3 years.

[rereboy]

They were inside the Gravity Room, doing training, and during the training, Vegeta tested him, and gave him a surprise attack, which is a normal thing during training. In martial arts, the trainer will hit you even when you aren't training at all. You may disagree with this, but that's just how things are.

As its clear from the scene, they weren't training together, they were just in the same room. Vegeta even tells Trunks to get out since the gravity its too much for him. And its also made clear that Vegeta never actually trained Trunks or trained with Trunks since he really had no idea how strong he was and what he could do. Their fight is literally just Vegeta getting curious and telling Trunks to try to hit him just so he can see how strong Trunks is. And then punching Trunks instinctively.

[jjgp1112]

Labeling Vegeta punching Trunks as abuse is absurd and just looking at the situation while ignoring all context. Vegeta was training his son in COMBAT (which involves people hitting each other...) and never once said that he wouldn't hit Trunks. That's a hard-ass father training his son, not some awful abuse. Trunks was whining because Vegeta punching him ruined his chance at going to the amusement park. He "cheated," as Trunks claimed. If he didn't want to get hit at all, he wouldn't be sparring with his father in the first place.

[superfunk]

Yeah they weren't training, but he certainly didn't punch trunks simply because he is a dick. He didn't have a thought process before the punch, and looked surprised himself after the punch, the panel in the manga directly after the punch makes it pretty clear.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As its clear from the scene, they weren't training together, they were just in the same room. Vegeta even tells Trunks to get out since the gravity its too much for him. And its also made clear that Vegeta never actually trained Trunks or trained with Trunks since he really had no idea how strong he was and what he could do. Their fight is literally just Vegeta getting curious and telling Trunks to try to hit him just so he can see how strong Trunks is. And then punching Trunks instinctively.

The fact that they hadn't being training together at that point is irrelevant. And I'm not arguing about Vegeta's reasons for hitting Trunks (it was obviously instinctively), I'm arguing about those that say that this makes Vegeta a terrible father that abuses his son because he doesn't really love him.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah they weren't training, but he certainly didn't punch trunks simply because he is a dick. He didn't have a thought process before the punch, and looked surprised himself after the punch, the panel in the manga directly after the punch makes it pretty clear.

Yeah, he even says "Ah!" as if he's surprised. It was pretty clear that it was an instinctual action and not some grand abuse. He tested Trunks strength, and when he was far stronger than he expected and nearly caught him with a punch that he thought might do some serious damage, he countered. The strained look on his face on the panel where Trunks swings at him makes that clear.

[rereboy]

Vegeta didn't plan on punching him, but he didn't seem even a bit sorry for punching him or even gave it much thought. He tells him he will take him to the park so that he shuts up and doesn't cry and even as he is doing this he is more worried about how strong Goten is so he asks Trunks that immediately and then he reflects on that

So, sure, Vegeta has love for Trunks and Bulma... but he is still pretty much a self-centered bastard.

[superfunk]

Vegeta didn't plan on punching him, but he didn't seem even a bit sorry for punching him or even gave it much thought. He tells him he will take him to the park so that he shuts up and doesn't cry and even as he is doing this he is more worried about how strong Goten is so he asks Trunks that immediately and then he reflects on that

So, sure, Vegeta has love for Trunks and Bulma... but he is still pretty much a self-centered bastard.

This is pretty much how i see it all, although you could say him being worried if goten is stronger than trunks is him taking pride in his son and his strength, everything we do is selfish, somethings are just more selfish than others.

[RandomGuy96]

What are you talking about?

You just said he wouldn't know something unless someone told him he could know it. I'd like proof of this claim.

The script is still written by Toriyama, and anything not by Toriyama is approved by him. Either way, the things that Toriyama didn't do for the movie (animation, fighting choreographies, etc) are irrelevant to this topic.

Toriyama approved GT too.

Prove that Toriyama wrote the specific line that Vegeta was a good guy, and prove that he wrote it with the intent of Vegeta being a good guy rather than the ritual being fucked as Roshi and Buu speculated.

He didn't have a thought process before the punch, and looked surprised himself after the punch, the panel in the manga directly after the punch makes it pretty clear.

He didn't look surprised to me. He lacked the "!!!" over his head, which almost always appear when a character is surprised.

The first two were in Cell arc, weren't they? Because I'm not arguing about that part of the story. And he didn't punch Trunks just to be a dick, do you have any idea about martial arts?

They were. My original post was referencing post-Namek Vegeta as a whole. He's consistently portrayed as a violent murderer and abusive father. He hadn't even hugged his 8 year old son before the Majin Buu arc. What does that tell you?

I do. Trunks wasn't training for martial arts. He didn't want to train for martial arts. He was taking his father up on an offer, and it should go without saying that the implicit agreement in that statement ("try to touch me while I dodge and I'll give you a reward") is that Vegeta won't punch his much smaller and weaker son full force in the face hard enough to leave a large bruise and make him cry. Doing so is generally seen as frown-worthy behavior. "I never said I WOULDN'T hit you" is just complete bullshit.

I really doubt he had anything else in his mind other than "fight Goku!"

Exactly. Hence, he gives zero shits about his family compared to stuff he actually wants. Like stroking his own ego. Or fighting Goku.

This is what an obsession is, it's like a decease, but it doesn't make you an evil person.

Murdering hundreds of people and laughing about it doesn't make him an evil person. Right...

It's not "for the lulz", it's for a very good reason in his opinion. He may be wrong, but that doesn't make him evil, he believes he is doing the right thing.

No he doesn't. Bringing Gohan- or fusing into Gogeta- will result in them instantly winning. He knows this. He still chooses to gamble everyone's lives against their consent anyway, partly because he wants them to take responsibility for his bad deeds, and partly out of pride.

Why?

Because he's not omniscient, and even if he was, him not classing Vegeta as one of the "really, REALLY bad guys" is so vague that it's meaningless as any form of proof.

For the last 4 years, Vegeta hadn't killed anyone, didn't want to kill anyone,

Oh my god, really? Well, obviously he must be a good person then!

had apparently regretted for his past sins (or else Porunga wouldn't have brought him back)

Nope. There's zero proof of that, and he never shows an ounce of remorse.

and he protected the Earth when he had to,

Nope, he repeatedly endangered the Earth to stroke his own ego.

and even placed the Earth above his pride.

Nope. If he was really placing the Earth above his pride, he would have fused with Goku.

Of course it would have been questioned in-universe, the guy was a mass-murderer, and since Vegeta doesn't show his feelings other than his mean side, they know him mostly for being an asshole.

They know him for being an evil mass murdering asshole because he is an evil mass murdering asshole.

In the Boo arc, he starts off being a lot more amiable than usual and is helping them fight Babidi's minions. Turning Majin is a huge hindrance, A+ liability right there, but from that point on basically everyone fucks up just as hard as him, so that by the end there's hardly anyone who can say "this is your fault, Vegeta" without being a hypocrite. Of all the fuck ups in the arc, Vegeta at least breaks even. Sure, he's only helping clean up the mess he partially created, but that's true for Goku as well. Other characters simply don't make up for their mistakes in the arc.

I'm pretty sure anyone in that arc except Goku could rightfully say "this is your fault, Vegeta".

[superfunk]

What are you talking about?

He didn't have a thought process before the punch, and looked surprised himself after the punch, the panel in the manga directly after the punch makes it pretty clear.

He didn't look surprised to me. He lacked the "!!!" over his head, which almost always appear when a character is surprised.

Post the page of the manga with his reaction, i bet 9 out 10 people on the forum will say he looks surprised in that panel. Also The anime makes it blatantly obvious(if you don't want to count the anime, then just post the manga page i was talking about, i believe you own all the volumes)

[EmmaWinters]

What are you talking about? He didn't have a thought process before the punch, and looked surprised himself after the punch, the panel in the manga directly after the punch makes it pretty clear.

He didn't look surprised to me. He lacked the "!!!" over his head, which almost always appear when a character is surprised.

Post the page of the manga with his reaction, i bet 9 out 10 people on the forum will say he looks surprised in that panel.

He looks surprised to me. He hit him harder than he wanted to.
There's no !!!, but there is an indicator.

[ABED]

everything we do is selfish, somethings are just more selfish than others.

Sadly, that's not true. We don't always do what's in our long term self interest. Bulma foolishly put her infant son in harm's way just to get a closer look. How is that in her self interest? Not only is she in danger, but her baby whom she loves is in imminent danger.

Vegeta foolishly picked a fight with Freeza and even goaded him into transforming. In the end, it cost him his life.

[Saiga]

You left out the part where the others have to race to Dr. Gero's lab before Vegeta gets there because he wants #17 and #18 to be activated, and they don't.

I had forgotten about that.

Anyway, I don't know where it is I ever said Vegeta's goals and their goals *never* line up. But like you said in regards to the Cell Jrs., a lot of times when that is the case, things would have turned out the same whether he'd been there or not. But when he does decide to go against them, things get exponentially worse. Considering my argument was whether or not his presence is a liability, I feel that still definitely holds water.

That's still not true though. There are only three times when he makes things worse by going against the group: helping Cell (joint effort with Kuririn), turning Majin, and the first time he crushes the potara. These are obviously not acceptable practices, and the group should have attempted to exercise some control over him for sure, but his presence is far from a liability. Killing him wouldn't help them much.

Also, yes, behaving stupidly is not a character trait exclusive to Vegeta. But again, I said "actively" working against them. Most everyone else's boo-boos are due to simple stupidity, misguided compassion, or Toriyama's fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants writing making them retroactively look stupid. Vegeta's are made in spite of knowing full well what the consequences could be and just not giving a shit, which I feel is worse. They're certainly not blameless, and in threads where we're talking about them, maybe I would have mentioned it. But this is about Vegeta.

I'm not seeing a difference. Actions "made in spite of knowing full well what the consequences could be and just not giving a shit" describes plenty of characters, especially Goku. And what the other characters do is still relevant in Vegeta's thread because his actions need to be compared to theirs to say if he is useful to their team or not.

I'm pretty sure anyone in that arc except Goku could rightfully say "this is your fault, Vegeta".

I disagree. Kaioshin provided just as much energy as Vegeta/Goku did, and Gohan slacking off also allowed for things to reach Majin Boo's release. And then Gotenks and Gohan both make screw ups further down the line that make a bad situation worse. By the time the whole mess problem is dealt with, I think that most of the major players aren't in a position to blame Vegeta.