What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[coola]

I can see why some people might call Mr.Toriyama new George Lucas. Even Kanzentai had new ending, that mess a little with Vegeta character, and couple of things are getting retconed:
- Tenshinhan being descendant of an alien race
- Bardock is good guy in EoB and Minus, despite being shown as cold blooded killer who don't care about his son at all.

[ABED]

Other than the ending, which isn't radically different, he hasn't pulled a Lucas on the manga. He's adding backstory, but he's not physically changing his manga, and unlike Star Wars, the original is still available.

[theoriginalbilis]

The only thing about newer DragonBall material that I find lacking is the more recent lackluster animation quality.

That said, I still enjoy every new special/movie/manga tie-in/etc. Even if they have their flaws, they don't really lessen or invalidate the original content for me.

[Kakarot9001]

I can see why some people might call Mr.Toriyama new George Lucas. Even Kanzentai had new ending, that mess a little with Vegeta character, and couple of things are getting retconed:
- Tenshinhan being descendant of an alien race
- Bardock is good guy in EoB and Minus, despite being shown as cold blooded killer who don't care about his son at all.

Where is said that Tien is alien?

[IDreamtIWasABee]

Step 1:
-Use a time machine and kidnap Kid Gohan after he beat Cell.

Step 2:
- Bring him to Elder Kai so he can have his powers unlocked.

Step 3:
- Gather the dragon balls, and wish that he never grows up.

Step 4:
- Use the 2nd wish to transport modern Gohan and Videl into the sun.

Everyone wins.

It would be so, so much easier to tolerate Saiyaman and slacking off if Gohan was still Cell Games age. I could understand and even enjoy watching that shit if he's a subtly fey boy, still figuring life and heroism out, but not some "regular guy" who's older than (and already shamed by) high school Spider-Man. And who looks like Yamcha.

[rereboy]

I can see why some people might call Mr.Toriyama new George Lucas. Even Kanzentai had new ending, that mess a little with Vegeta character, and couple of things are getting retconed:
- Tenshinhan being descendant of an alien race
- Bardock is good guy in EoB and Minus, despite being shown as cold blooded killer who don't care about his son at all.

Where is said that Tenshinhan is alien?

Its said in a guidebook that Tenshinhan is a distant descendant from an alien tribe. But, even counting that info as true, that just means that Tenshinhan is 99% human.

[Rocketman]

For the bulk of the series, Goku is the main hero.

Pilaf and Red Ribbon aren't "the bulk of the series".

[Zephyr]

In what world is Goku not the main hero in any arc before the Cell arc?

[Kamiccolo9]

In what world is Goku not the main hero in any arc before the Cell arc?

Depends on if you split the Freeza Arc or not. If you consider the stuff before the actual fight with Freeza to be a separate arc, then Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta are way more important than Goku in that section of the story. And he shares the limelight with Gohan in the Saiyan Arc.

[Zephyr]

In what world is Goku not the main hero in any arc before the Cell arc?

Depends on if you split the Freeza Arc or not. If you consider the stuff before the actual fight with Freeza to be a separate arc, then Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta are way more important than Goku in that section of the story. And he shares the limelight with Gohan in the Saiyan Arc.

I can't see any reason to cut the Namek arc like that. I can see where you're coming from with the Saiyan arc though.

[Rocketman]

In what world is Goku not the main hero in any arc before the Cell arc?

He's the "main hero", but he is not the "only hero" like he is in GT or bog. If the series was like bog, Goku wouldn't have spent most of the fight vs Vegeta as a crumpled mess getting rescued by Not Goku Characters. Ginyu beats him, Android 19 beats him, he never tries to fight the android trio, he gives up vs Cell and he's outmatched for the entire Buu arc until the last-minute retcon to make Kid Buu seem like less of a shitty ending.

After 18 and 17 trashed the rest of the cast (much faster, 18 would've broken Vegeta's arm on her first attack), bog's Goku would've descended from the heavens wreathed in glory and effortlessly fought all three androids until they realized how super-duper cool he is and given up their plan to kill him.

[Mewzard]

- Bardock is good guy in EoB and Minus, despite being shown as cold blooded killer who don't care about his son at all.

Good guy? The first thing we see from Bardock in Dragon Ball Minus is him in the middle of genociding some poor race because that's what Saiyans do: Kill a race off and sell the planet.

He's certainly evil, only now, he cares about his family. Which gives him some tint of gray to his character. Evil can care about some individuals. "I'm 100% evil to the core and betray everyone always" is so overdone and too easy. Making an entire race good or evil is just poor writing. Even if a majority leans one way, it really adds to a group to see the minority and what makes them stand out (Going D&D 5E "There alignment says the Orcs are Chaotic Evil, they should all be killed down to the last infant and pregnant woman" is not only horrible, but leads to uninteresting story and character).

I liked seeing the little things about the Saiyan homeworld in Minus, and that Bardock actually used his brain to save Goku, rather than just "Goku happened to leave right before Freeza randomly decided to blow up the planet when all but four Saiyans happened to be on the planet". It was so contrived. Between that and Bardock getting random ass psychic powers with a neck stab to set the plot in motion, I'm glad Minus replaced it. At least Freeza was giving us a reason why the Saiyans were almost entirely on their planet (you know, the race who wipes out races on foreign planets for their jobs).

Minus isn't perfect (in fact, I'd say it was flawed; pacing could have been better and it needed a significant length increase to go into the characters more), but honestly...I feel the Bardock Special is more flawed for the above reasons. The Bardock Special's more entertaining though, I'll give it that (but that doesn't detract the issues I have with it).

Now, the lamest modern thing?

I'd agree with the animation issues, and also Episode of Bardock...just...why?

[Zephyr]

In what world is Goku not the main hero in any arc before the Cell arc?

He's the "main hero", but he is not the "only hero" like he is in GT or bog. If the series was like bog, Goku wouldn't have spent most of the fight vs Vegeta as a crumpled mess getting rescued by Not Goku Characters. Ginyu beats him, Android 19 beats him, he never tries to fight the android trio, he gives up vs Cell and he's outmatched for the entire Buu arc until the last-minute retcon to make Kid Buu seem like less of a shitty ending.

After 18 and 17 trashed the rest of the cast, bog's Goku would've descended from the heavens wreathed in glory and effortlessly fought all three androids until they realized how super-duper cool he is and given up their plan to kill him.

He's not the "only hero" in Battle of Gods. Vegeta did his part and had loads of spotlight too. Unless you want to count "winning fights" as the single condition one can meet to be a "hero", which I would find to be an odd criteria personally, especially since Goku lost both of his fights in the movie. If Battle of Gods was how you enjoy imagining it, Goku wouldn't have needed to discover and receive a powerup with the aid of Not Goku Characters to even attempt to stand a chance against a more powerful opponent who beats him.

This Goku hateboner can only make for entertaining posts for so long. Even Vegeta eventually moved on.

[Rocketman]

This Goku hateboner can only make for entertaining posts for so long. Even Vegeta eventually moved on.

I don't hate Goku. I hate Godku, the screen-hogging better-than-everyone alter-ego who replaces him in things like Movie 13, GT, and bog.

[ABED]

Goku isn't hogging the screen, Toriyama is giving his main character the spotlight. You make it sound like Goku is an actor that bitches until he gets the most screentime and his name above the title.

Pilaf and Red Ribbon aren't "the bulk of the series".

Conveniently forgetting the rest of Dragon Ball (i.e., the tournaments and Piccolo Daimao)

[Super Sayian Prime]

Did I really just get spoiled on a movie that isn't out anywhere for another month?

[sbk]

I think people are under the impression that it's more of an ensemble than it truly is. Goku is more or less the guy that saves the day in DB. 9 times out of 10, he's the hero that saves the day.

He saves the day (in the ~only one who can do it~ sense) once in DBZ, when he fights Freeza on Namek. For the entire rest of it, it's an ensemble cast.

Completely disregarding DB and implying that it's a different series. Ensemble isn't inherently better. For the bulk of the series, Goku is the main hero. The Buu arc has a slightly more ensemble approach, though it's not necessarily the better for it, and much of that feels like Toriyama simply couldn't decide who should be the main hero.

There's no denying that pre-Raditz focused solely on Goku and he always saves the day. But it was executed in a much better and more enjoyable way than GT or BoG.

In the tournaments, all characters (except Yamcha..) get to shine. Against King Piccolo, Goku beats him of course but Tien and Roshi put up a good fight and nearly stopped him. Same with Piccolo Jr, it was a tournament so a lot characters got to shine, and Kami also nearly stops him. Even though Goku saves the day, other characters do put up a good fight against the villains.

It helps that the cast was much smaller (no Vegeta, Piccolo as a Z-fighter, Gohan, etc) I guess. Red Ribbon Army was all Goku, but there weren't that many characters at that point so it didn't feel like anybody was shafted.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though pre-Raditz focused solely on Goku, it did so without making other characters look so incompetent.

And the Z-part of the story was mostly an ensemble, and it's the favorite part of the story for most people so it makes sense that many prefer the ensemble approach. Many people just don't find it that enjoyable to see everybody else besides Goku as useless side characters, like in GT or BoG. Different strokes and all

[Plague-Memories]

I hated nearly everything about Battle of Gods. I'm not sure what the general consensus here is of the film as I haven't been here in months, so I hope I don't get flamed for this opinion.

But yeah, that movie did nothing for me at all.

[sangofe]

Lamest thing about modern DBZ? There's nothing that's "lame" except the censorship in DBZ Kai and the new music. I can't stand the new music in Kai...

[Dayspring]

couple of things are getting retconed:
- Tenshinhan being descendant of an alien race

I really wouldn't call that a recent retcon or even a retcon at all.

The fact that Tenshinhan is a descendant of the Three-Eyed Clan would have been self-evident to many (or even most) Japanese fans. It's just acknowledging a very well-known manga that introduced them. His Daizenshuu 7 bio merely confirmed their suspicions.

Meanwhile, Daizenshuu 7 came out a few weeks after the Z anime ended. It's roughly 2 years older than GT.
EDIT: In fact, tomorrow is its 19th Anniversary.

Also, as had been explained in another thread, that alien ancestry of his merely explains where his third eye comes from. It's literally akin to people sometimes being born with extra tail bones on account of how they're descended from monkeys.

Also, Tenshinhan is at least 99.9[exactly thirty-one more nines]94% human. Probably a heck of a lot more than that.