What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Mon May 25, 2020 11:57 am

How is Goku overpowered? He finds enemies stronger than him all the time.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 25, 2020 12:24 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:24 am
ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:32 am
Looking over what I said another time, i'll admit, I sound pretty dumb. Maybe I should keep my yap shut :crazy:
No you don't, you and who you replied to made perfectly good points. Goku is so overpowered, on top of having the strongest friends, that any tension there could be (which isn't much considering when these stories take place) is thrown out the window. One thing I liked about SsjG is that it was like fusion, it was hard to achieve and had a time limit. That's been removed, and on top of that, he has an even stronger form in Blue. After that he got UI, but it could only be used randomly, that shouldn't cause any....oh wait, he can now use the first stage at will.

If the above doesn't work, he can just bribe 2 deities with some good food to help him out, such as what happened in RF. Whis can literally bring people back to life. If somehow that doesn't work, he was given a button that summons his best friends, the Omni kings who'd erase anyone he asks them to. If that somehow doesn't work, we know for a fact he and his friends will be OK because these stories take place before EOZ, in which everyone's OK.

Yes, this is a Shonen and the heroes will eventually come out on top, as they should, but there should never be so many ways out for them as there are for Modern DB's heroes. In the original manga, there were consequences when the heroes (and especially Goku) weren't strong enough to handle a situation, the idea of consequences much less there being any has been completely left behind.
Super Saiyan Blue was meaningless against Hit (he needed Kaioken stacked on top of it), Infinite Zamasu, Jiren, and Moro. Ultra Instinct is powerful, yes, but he can't turn it on at will (not the Mastered form anyway) and it is an extremely risky state to be in. The sheer heat caused by the transformation can be deadly to the user, as his fight against Jiren proved.

Whis can bring people back to life..... like the Dragon Balls can. This is quite a bizarre complaint, DBZ was always known as that show where everyone comes back to life after the main villain is defeated. This happens after literally every arc. All the victims killed by Freeza, Cell, and Buu were brought back thanks to the Dragon Balls. The introduction of Whis hardly changes anything. Even if there was no Whis, the outcome of RoF wouldn't have changed. They'd just have gone to Namek to use the dragon balls found there to restore the Earth.

Zeno doesn't exactly erase whoever Goku chooses.... Goku didn't ask him to erase the entire future multiverse. Summoning Zeno is risky, since he's an unstable child who can very easily destroy everything on a whim.

The final point about EOZ is really a moot point. We know what the ending is, not how the story gets there. That's why it was possible Hit won the tournament and the Earth at the EOZ was actually in Universe 6. That's why it was possible Jiren won the tournament but had a change of heart and chose to bring everyone back. Let's not even talk about the Future Trunks arc, in which there was no plot armor at all.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon May 25, 2020 1:10 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:24 pm

Whis can bring people back to life..... like the Dragon Balls can. All the victims killed by Freeza, Cell, and Buu were brought back thanks to the Dragon Balls.

Zeno doesn't exactly erase whoever Goku chooses.... Goku didn't ask him to erase the entire future multiverse.

The final point about EOZ is really a moot point. We know what the ending is, not how the story gets there.

Let's not even talk about the Future Trunks arc, in which there was no plot armor at all.
The difference is that you actually have to collect the dragon balls, and in some cases, the heroes had to go through hell to get their friends back. Whis can literally wave his magical stick around and whoever is alive again.

It still took care of Zamasu and Trunks was just sent to an identical timeline. Had Trunks stuck around then you could say there was a price to pay, but there really wasn't. Imagine an entire arc centered around the heroes having to sneak around the universe because Zamasu is practically everywhere, but why do that when you can have a 50+ episode tournament. Zamasu is a goldmine of potential, yet he was limited to a 20 episode arc while that godawful TOP got close to half the entire show to itself.

If I know what the ending is, I'm not exactly going to care how they get there, because I know everyone's OK. If someone dies or gets extremely injured in battle, I won't care because I know for a fact they're alive at the end.

Was there any change to the status quo of the franchise as a result of the Zamasu arc ? No. Trunks being stuck in the current timeline would've been a major change, but he wasn't.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Mon May 25, 2020 1:12 pm

It's not the lamest thing. That was the status quo for a while. No one staying dead is part of the problem but not THE issue with modern DB since it predates this era.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 25, 2020 1:17 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:10 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:24 pm

Whis can bring people back to life..... like the Dragon Balls can. All the victims killed by Freeza, Cell, and Buu were brought back thanks to the Dragon Balls.

Zeno doesn't exactly erase whoever Goku chooses.... Goku didn't ask him to erase the entire future multiverse.

The final point about EOZ is really a moot point. We know what the ending is, not how the story gets there.

Let's not even talk about the Future Trunks arc, in which there was no plot armor at all.
The difference is that you actually have to collect the dragon balls, and in some cases, the heroes had to go through hell to get their friends back. Whis can literally wave his magical stick around and whoever is alive again.

It still took care of Zamasu and Trunks was just sent to an identical timeline. Had Trunks stuck around then you could say there was a price to pay, but there really wasn't. Imagine an entire arc centered around the heroes having to sneak around the universe because Zamasu is practically everywhere, but why do that when you can have a 50+ episode tournament. Zamasu is a goldmine of potential, yet he was limited to a 20 episode arc while that godawful TOP got close to half the entire show to itself.

If I know what the ending is, I'm not exactly going to care how they get there, because I know everyone's OK. If someone dies or gets extremely injured in battle, I won't care because I know for a fact they're alive at the end.

Was there any change to the status quo of the franchise as a result of the Zamasu arc ? No. Trunks being stuck in the current timeline would've been a major change, but he wasn't.
Gathering the Dragon Balls was never a problem, so much so that the story always skipped over to the moment when the protagonists made the wish to the Dragon.

As a result of Zamasu's actions, the Present multiverse now has 2 Zeno. As Super is an ongoing story, it remains to be seen how this will come into play in a future arc.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Mon May 25, 2020 1:21 pm

I know I'm hitting the hornet's nest but Zamasu was destined to be a one and done villain. They put off the final confrontation as long as they could. Anything else is pulling the taffy. The ToP at least gives more to work with in terms of the sheer number of antagonists.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon May 25, 2020 1:26 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:17 pm
Gathering the Dragon Balls was never a problem, so much so that the story always skipped over to the moment when the protagonists made the wish to the Dragon.
Goku had to take down the RRA and win a mini tournament in order to bring Upa's father back.
After King Piccolo killed Shenron, things seemed hopeless until the arc's end.
Goku and friends had to go through hell on Namek to get their wishes made.
The balls were deactivated in Trunks' timeline, turning it into hell on earth.

Would they have to go through any of that if they wanted Whis to bring someone back ? probably not.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 25, 2020 2:04 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:26 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:17 pm
Gathering the Dragon Balls was never a problem, so much so that the story always skipped over to the moment when the protagonists made the wish to the Dragon.
Goku had to take down the RRA and win a mini tournament in order to bring Upa's father back.
After King Piccolo killed Shenron, things seemed hopeless until the arc's end.
Goku and friends had to go through hell on Namek to get their wishes made.
The balls were deactivated in Trunks' timeline, turning it into hell on earth.

Would they have to go through any of that if they wanted Whis to bring someone back ? probably not.
They never showed the gang gathering the balls after the major villains of Z were defeated (aka Freeza, Cell, Buu). As I said, this thing of bringing everyone back instantly at the end of an arc is something Z already did and is known for it. Point me to when they had trouble finding the Dragon Balls after Freeza's "death" on Namek, the Cell Games, or the battle on the world of the Kais.
ABED wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:21 pm
I know I'm hitting the hornet's nest but Zamasu was destined to be a one and done villain. They put off the final confrontation as long as they could. Anything else is pulling the taffy. The ToP at least gives more to work with in terms of the sheer number of antagonists.
That's fine. While I'd love to see him return because he's my favourite character, I won't pretend he's needed storywise. I'll be satisfied if that two Zeno thing leads somewhere.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Noah » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:30 pm

As much as people hated how Boo arc was constantly changing who would be the one to save the day, I can say it was less way garbage than the Future Trunks arc:

- We had Vegetto who failed (again), we had F. Trunks (the guy named after the arc) to fix the things for good, but instead we got Goku relying on Zeno to delete the whole shit up. Worse yet have Whis find a timeline where Trunks and Mai could live, but with their clones! Gosh, that's just terrible.

I know this was like 4 years ago, but I can't blame people who dropped Super after the whole shit festival that was this arc finale.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:33 pm

Noah wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:30 pm
I know this was like 4 years ago, but I can't blame people who dropped Super after the whole shit festival that was this arc finale.
Those final 3-4 episodes are without a doubt among, if not the worst ever written episodes in the franchise. It doesn't help that the arc is stuck between 2 very underwhelming tournaments and 2 terrible movie retellings. This is why I don't understand the hate Toyotaro gets, as Toriyama and Toei's staff have given us some of the worst written material imaginable, yet somehow he's who fans throw shade at ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:43 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:33 pm
Noah wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:30 pm
I know this was like 4 years ago, but I can't blame people who dropped Super after the whole shit festival that was this arc finale.
Those final 3-4 episodes are without a doubt among, if not the worst ever written episodes in the franchise. It doesn't help that the arc is stuck between 2 very underwhelming tournaments and 2 terrible movie retellings. This is why I don't understand the hate Toyotaro gets, as Toriyama and Toei's staff have given us some of the worst written material imaginable, yet somehow he's who fans throw shade at ?
I'll raise you the wedding dress arc which was one of the worst batch of episodes the franchise has ever produced, not to mention Fake Namek.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:46 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:33 pm
Noah wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:30 pm
I know this was like 4 years ago, but I can't blame people who dropped Super after the whole shit festival that was this arc finale.
Those final 3-4 episodes are without a doubt among, if not the worst ever written episodes in the franchise. It doesn't help that the arc is stuck between 2 very underwhelming tournaments and 2 terrible movie retellings. This is why I don't understand the hate Toyotaro gets, as Toriyama and Toei's staff have given us some of the worst written material imaginable, yet somehow he's who fans throw shade at ?
What are the episode numbers you're referring to? I want to go back to them so I can refresh my mind. Is it those episodes about the Saiyaman movie, and the one about Goku and Krillin going back to Roshi to train for old times sake (Nostalgia bait)?
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:49 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:46 pm
What are the episode numbers you're referring to? I want to go back to them so I can refresh my mind.
If I'm not mistaking, episodes 64-67. Essentially everything after Vegeta's fight with Black.
ABED wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:43 pm
I'll raise you the wedding dress arc which was one of the worst batch of episodes the franchise has ever produced, not to mention Fake Namek.
I won't argue that those are bad, but the difference is that they're just pointless filler, while what I mentioned is the ending of a main arc.
Last edited by Matches Malone on Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:43 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:33 pm
Noah wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:30 pm
I know this was like 4 years ago, but I can't blame people who dropped Super after the whole shit festival that was this arc finale.
Those final 3-4 episodes are without a doubt among, if not the worst ever written episodes in the franchise. It doesn't help that the arc is stuck between 2 very underwhelming tournaments and 2 terrible movie retellings. This is why I don't understand the hate Toyotaro gets, as Toriyama and Toei's staff have given us some of the worst written material imaginable, yet somehow he's who fans throw shade at ?
I'll raise you the wedding dress arc which was one of the worst batch of episodes the franchise has ever produced, not to mention Fake Namek.
Of all the episodes that Kai cut from Z, Fake Namek episodes were the ones I was most grateful of them gutting out.
:thumbup: - Progress on my 1st DB Journey - :thumbup:

1. DB - 154/154 (Subbed)
2. DBZ - 291/291 + Specials (Mix of sub and dub)
3. DB Kai - 98/167 (Dubbed) (Kai TFC will be for another day)
4. DBGT - 20/64 (Subbed) (Gave a fair shot, I do not like it, will not go back to finish)
5. DB Super - 131/131 (Dubbed)
6. Movies - 10/20 (Mix of sub and dub)

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:50 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:49 pm
ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:46 pm
What are the episode numbers you're referring to? I want to go back to them so I can refresh my mind.
If I'm not mistaking, episodes 64-67. Essentially everything after Vegeta's fight with Black.
ABED wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:43 pm
I'll raise you the wedding dress arc which was one of the worst batch of episodes the franchise has ever produced, not to mention Fake Namek.
I won't argue that those are bad, but the difference is that they're just pointless filler, while what I mentioned is the ending of a main arc.
And they are sooooo boring, committing the cardinal sin of storytelling.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:00 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:49 pm
ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:46 pm
What are the episode numbers you're referring to? I want to go back to them so I can refresh my mind.
If I'm not mistaking, episodes 64-67. Essentially everything after Vegeta's fight with Black.
Ah yes I remember now. Yeah that ending was pretty iffy if you ask me. To me it felt confused and messy. Like there wasn't a clear vision of how to wrap things up neatly, so everything was crammed into those last few episodes then put together with some duct tape. :lol:
:thumbup: - Progress on my 1st DB Journey - :thumbup:

1. DB - 154/154 (Subbed)
2. DBZ - 291/291 + Specials (Mix of sub and dub)
3. DB Kai - 98/167 (Dubbed) (Kai TFC will be for another day)
4. DBGT - 20/64 (Subbed) (Gave a fair shot, I do not like it, will not go back to finish)
5. DB Super - 131/131 (Dubbed)
6. Movies - 10/20 (Mix of sub and dub)

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:04 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:00 pm
Ah yes I remember now. Yeah that ending was pretty iffy if you ask me. To me it felt confused and messy. Like there wasn't a clear vision of how to wrap things up neatly, so everything was crammed into those last few episodes then put together with some duct tape. :lol:
Those episodes are a clear definition of throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Nothing made sense, nothing connected right, it was just random ideas tossed in a blender. What makes it worse is that it was followed by 10 filler episodes and a FIFTY FIVE episode long tournament arc. Would it have been so hard to give some of that to the zamasu arc to flesh things out ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:24 pm

The Zamasu arc didn't need fleshing out. It's a plot heavy complicated arc as is. It lasted as long as it needed. The problem wasn't the episode count.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:46 am

Noah wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:30 pm
As much as people hated how Boo arc was constantly changing who would be the one to save the day, I can say it was less way garbage than the Future Trunks arc:

- We had Vegetto who failed (again), we had F. Trunks (the guy named after the arc) to fix the things for good, but instead we got Goku relying on Zeno to delete the whole shit up. Worse yet have Whis find a timeline where Trunks and Mai could live, but with their clones! Gosh, that's just terrible.

I know this was like 4 years ago, but I can't blame people who dropped Super after the whole shit festival that was this arc finale.
Nothing wrong with that. Zamasu was immortal, it was obvious he would never die so easily to a mere sword attack. The only problem is that Toei for some reason decided to rush that in 3 episodes instead of going the logical route and giving more episodes to conclude the Future Trunks arc at the expense of a few episodes from the ToP arc (the Tien or Krillin episodes weren't needed at all).
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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