What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:16 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:creating droves of mouth breathing morons who think that Ultimate is both a form and one that always gives you a specific hair style.
I think it's clear by now that I am one of those who says Ultimate is a transformation/form (because it is indeed, and it has always been the case way before Dragon Ball Super), and I understand your dislike for that view but calling others (me included) "mouth breathing morons" for having the right stance on the matter? Not cool.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:18 pm

Grimlock wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:creating droves of mouth breathing morons who think that Ultimate is both a form and one that always gives you a specific hair style.
It's clear by now that I am one of those who says Ultimate is a transformation/form (because it is indeed, and it has always been the case way before Dragon Ball Super).

I understand your dislike for that view but calling others (me included) "mouth breathing morons" for having the right stance on the matter? Not cool.
Was referring more to the crowd who think Gohan is using his Base form in the manga vs SS Kefla because Toyotaro doesn't give him the bang. Ignoring the fact Ultimate is just your Base design with SS eyes.

Go to Twitter sometime and take in the distilled stench of idiocy somehow permitting through your computer screen.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:21 pm

The ToP, especially the anime version. It borders on being unwatchable.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:40 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:The ToP, especially the anime version. It borders on being unwatchable.
There was a thread recently where you explained why you hate it. I don't even remember what thread it is anymore, but it got locked before I could tell you just how perfectly you hit the nail on the head.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:56 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:The ToP, especially the anime version. It borders on being unwatchable.
There was a thread recently where you explained why you hate it. I don't even remember what thread it is anymore, but it got locked before I could tell you just how perfectly you hit the nail on the head.
Thanks. Now that you mention it, I may as well repost that in order to give my two-line post some substance (I didn't realize that the thread was locked).

This was for the anime in general, rather than just the ToP, but the ToP arc really epitomized all the issues I was complaining about:
Ignoring all plot and character issues, of which there are many, the biggest problem with the anime is that it has no respect for the viewer's time. Every line possible is extended as far as it can without pushing past some unclear line of acceptability. Wanna have Zen-Oh interject that something is cool? Sure we can do that, but you know what? Let's have him say it 5 times instead of 1. We can cut to him multiple times during the fight to pad out the runtime. It's okay, he still thinks it's cool.

Oh crap, we still have time to fill out? I know, let's cut to the gods talking about how awesome their fighters are. Now let's do it again. And again. Now let's cut to the U7 guys and see what their reactions are. Then do it again. And again. Let's do that for every single fighter and multiple times for the same characters repeating the same lines, for every one of the 120 fighters.

It was apparent from the beginning. The first thing the Super anime decided to do (with the manga wisely largely skipping over this part) was rehash TWO recent 90-minute movies for 28 episodes with particularly terrible animation and padding. Movies that could have easily been left alone as in-continuity with minor tweaks, taking half a year and over a dozen hours of screen time for an end result that doesn't look as good and bears the burden of all of the horrible writing decisions made to intentionally stretch out to that unnecessary timeframe (does anyone actually like those scenes of Beerus just going around acting like a jerk and generally being less likable?), plus throwing out a self-contained filler arc to pad even that. And all without providing any new worthwhile information at all.

What do you think we should do with that time? Actually explain what the fuck is going on with the plot? Keep the power scale consistent so the conflict has internal logic instead of being totally arbitrary? Elaborate on any of the ideas we've introduced like Toppo abandoning his principles or Tagoma losing what little humanity he had? Get outta here.

The godawful pacing is particularly insulting since the things that the characters are constantly rambling on about and the imagery presented don't actually make any sense to begin with. It serves no purpose but to strain your brain trying to solve a riddle that has no answer and would not be worth the effort even if it did.

This reaches its logical conclusion with the ToP which is a plotless 55 episode filler battle between fodder in which nothing of relevance happens. The Jiren fight alone lasts 13 episodes of the heroes screaming and throwing ineffectual attacks. The most relevant thing that happens prior to the last few episodes is that Roshi threatens to rape a female fighter to get her to resign and tells her it's her fault if she gets raped and made unsuitable as a wife. You can easily cut 2/3 of Super's runtime and not miss anything at all.

Also, in the manga, Zen-Oh is not portrayed as a total moron incapable of counting, his facial expressions vary more than "smiling doofus", Jiren has more characterization in two pages than he does in 50 episodes, Vegeta does something other than whine, fights are won in ways other than "scream and randomly get a hundred times stronger" (contrast their portrayals of Super Saiyan Blue), and Goku isn't portrayed as literally brain-dead as he is in Toei's productions.

Toyotaro is hardly a master wordsmith, but he possesses a basic level of competence that Toei lacks. His structuring is simply better.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Noah » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:16 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Toyotaro is hardly a master wordsmith, but he possesses a basic level of competence that Toei lacks. His structuring is simply better.
I was agreeing with your post until these last words. I mean, really no... Toei with all their problems are better than Toyotaro, not a whole better, just better. Not in a hell meaning that the anime is great thing either, DB Super as a whole is an average series devoted to merchandising, flashy fights, poor character development and lacks compelling storylines.

I could say a few more things, but I read someone who had defined this better:
Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro lacks the creativity to do anything interesting with them and really bring Toriyama's plots to life. He's constantly referencing the original series and his chapters are filled with exposition explaining every little thing, even stuff that should be obvious and you could infer from context. He's very obviously a fan and not a writer. And the anime tries to expand on Toriyama's napkin plots with their own unique, interesting ideas but they never go anywhere with them, and mostly just fall back on rehashing moments from the original series in order to cater to the casual fans. At the same time, it feels like a lot of the staff doesn't understand what made Dragon Ball unique and special and they just attempt to apply modern Shounen tropes and clichés to the series.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Waluigiman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:34 pm

This also works with The Things that grind your Gears but...When they make the Dragon Ball cast really mean to Yamcha just to make another of this annoying meme. Unless it will lead to a story about Yamcha improving, I don't think I can see it without cringing as it reminds me of Team Four Star.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Kurakaio » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:17 pm

Definitely the fan base. Though if I were to be specific, the people that tend to complain about every little thing, and act as if Z is perfect and doesn't have a bunch of the same issues that Super has.

I don't think I can ever be "mad" or "done" with Dragon Ball. The only thing that would get me close would be if the main series became like Super Dragon Ball Heroes. It's cool as it's own side fan fic thing, but keep that shit outta the main continuation and I'll be fine.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by GT_Goten10 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:48 pm

Most of the character designs & transformations in super
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by sintzu » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:25 pm

If I had to pick one thing and one thing only, I'll go with DB- as it has nothing redeemable to it. It takes what many (including Toriyama back in the day) thought was an amazing story in Bardock's special and tries to take its place only to fail on every level.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by SheonGT » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:40 am

I like the idea of Bardock somehow becoming the first Super Saiyan, striking fear into Frieza’s entire family and driving Frieza to destroy Vegeta in the first place.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:40 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote: - Goku Black is essentially just a clone of Tullece.
Goku Black has little in common with Tullece (who is completely forgettable) in terms of personality and motives. He was never meant to be a "what it Goku was evil" idea like Tullece was.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by sintzu » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:45 pm

SheonGT wrote:I like the idea of Bardock somehow becoming the first Super Saiyan, striking fear into Frieza’s entire family and driving Frieza to destroy Vegeta in the first place.
The idea itself was good but it's a shame they didn't come up with a new character instead.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by GT_Goten10 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:58 pm

ricky84 wrote:
JohnnyCashKami wrote: - Goku Black is essentially just a clone of Tullece.
Goku Black has little in common with Tullece (who is completely forgettable) in terms of personality and motives. He was never meant to be a "what it Goku was evil" idea like Tullece was.
I agree both completely different concepts
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:25 pm

The flood of retcons that Movie 1 is bringing about to a well established lore (changing what was good/didn't need to be changed to get worse).

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:56 pm

The idea that DB should go on forever.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:50 pm

The outrage that a non-canon special is officially non-canon.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:00 pm

Mere fans claiming what is canonical and what is not in a franchise that does not have an official canon established by anyone who actually has the power/right to apply a canon. As if "fans" were somehow a valid entity to claim the canonicity of a work.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:15 pm

How is Goku Black a clone of Tullece? Lol. One of them is lowborn scum from a primitive mortal species, the other one is a divine prodigy who has given into his darker desires and has taken over a mortal's body, using it to brilliantly reach the peak of beauty that every mortal seeks for so long. They are completely different characters.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Ssjcell » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:03 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:How is Goku Black a clone of Tullece? Lol. One of them is lowborn scum from a primitive mortal species, the other one is a divine prodigy who has given into his darker desires and has taken over a mortal's body, using it to brilliantly reach the peak of beauty that every mortal seeks for so long. They are completely different characters.
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