General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by KBABZ » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:29 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:"The alternative terms mythology, timeline, universe and continuity are often used.
It is erroneously used as an "alternative term" (to which I'm not surprised, people use the word "canon" wrong, we often see its "noun" form when it should be "adjective"...).

I know you took the definition of "canon" from Wikipedia instead of an actual dictionary, book or something, and while you are kind of correct in its meaning, that cannot be applied to the word "continuity".

"Continuity" is the flow of events in a logical order. Think of it as a "timeline" where you see the events summarized in a wall, that is a continuity. There is a continuity for the movies, as they all probably happen in the same dimension. The latter movies follow the former ones within a logical order, Movie 3 does not happen before Movie 1, for example.
That is correct, but at the same time there is a certain aspect of things being "canon" to one work and not the other. For example, we now have three different takes on Goku's origin that can be neatly applied to three different lines. The Bardock Special applies to the original Z anime, Minus applies to the manga, and Super Broly applies to the modern Kai/Super anime. Due to Goku's age difference from one to the other, the Bardock Special cannot apply to the manga, and vice versa. There's a place to put them and connect them to another work.

Ratchet & Clank is an example I'm intimately familiar with. The PS2, PSP and PS3 games (plus the comic and a mobile game) are all part of a single continuity. But the 2016 movie and the PS4 game released for it do not apply to those games, yet are connected to each other. It's a second continuity, they are canon to each other, and not canon to any of the older works.

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Grimlock » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:25 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:With Dragon Ball, this continuity is determined by Akira Toriyama.
You still did not get it. "Continuity", in most of the cases, is not determined by anything. It's not like Toriyama had all the Dragon Ball story planned since the beginning. This is another example that shows us how separated "continuity" and "canonicity" are; the former is generally not planned, while the latter is done conciously.

In Dragon Ball, if there is something you definitely can't say is that it is "determined".
Mister_Popo wrote:he is still the creator who determins the continuity (= canon).
And you still refuse to understand. Maybe I should just drop it? Beginning to think this will not lead anywhere.
Mister_Popo wrote:Different continuities can theoretically interact, but with DB this never has been affirmed in the story itself.
Maybe not in-universe, but it was something that Akira Toriyama himself introduced into his franchise. Now, if you are used to ignore his statements in interviews just because they have not appeared in the series, that's your thing. But you can't say that something doesn't exist because of that. Also, one can take into consideration all the information he provides through interviews just fine.
Mister_Popo wrote:I basically just wait and see what effectively comes along in the story determined by Shueisha.
Huh? Just above you said that it's the author who determines things, but when he does it to a game, you want something from Shueisha? :eh:
Mister_Popo wrote:Then why do you state the world of the movies for instance can interact with the storyline? That's not been established as well.
Because their existence in-universe has been confirmed by the author and there are characters who can open portals. Goku Black did too with his scythe. This is why it is not out of the realm of possibility.
Mister_Popo wrote:Moreover: what sense does the statement make 'canon does not exist''? That basically means there is no official source material.
What? No. "Official" is also something else entirely, "canon" and "official" are not synonymous either.
Mister_Popo wrote:When something hasn't been established as you state, why aren't several opinions allowed?
What the hell? Why are you asking me this? I'm the one who defends the right for people to have their own opinion exactly because there is nothing officially established. :eh:
Mister_Popo wrote:But i definetely feel no need to attack people in the middle of other threads about it, because they happen to have another opinion.
That's what bothered me more than the fact you think differently about it.
Are you okay? What does this have to do with anything? :crazy:

KBABZ wrote:That is correct, but at the same time there is a certain aspect of things being "canon" to one work and not the other. For example, we now have three different takes on Goku's origin that can be neatly applied to three different lines. The Bardock Special applies to the original Z anime, Minus applies to the manga, and Super Broly applies to the modern Kai/Super anime. Due to Goku's age difference from one to the other, the Bardock Special cannot apply to the manga, and vice versa. There's a place to put them and connect them to another work.
Yeah, exactly. This is what I've just said in a previous post. One just have to figure out which continuity that work belongs to.
KBABZ wrote:Ratchet & Clank is an example I'm intimately familiar with. The PS2, PSP and PS3 games (plus the comic and a mobile game) are all part of a single continuity. But the 2016 movie and the PS4 game released for it do not apply to those games, yet are connected to each other. It's a second continuity, they are canon to each other, and not canon to any of the older works.
Another example I'm familiar with: Transformers: War for Cybertron (video-game), Transformers Fall of Cybertron (video-game), Transformers: Prime (TV series), Transformers: Rage of the Dinobots (comic book) and Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters (comic book), Transformers: Exodus (novel) all constitute the Aligned continuity (notice that this continuity acknowledges different kind of media, from comic books to games!).

And the list of examples just goes on if we continue to share it. Which just shows us that not only Dragon Ball movies can interact just fine with the manga continuity, it wouldn't even be a stretch to say that a game (which had Toriyama's involvement for five years!) is also part of the manga continuity (as it was intended to be so since the beginning).

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Shineman » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:50 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Shineman wrote:I subscribed to the idea that everything is canon, as long they are officially produced by the right-holders of the franchise; it includes everything with the Dragon Ball Brand, from comics, animated series, video games, merchandises and the sort falls under the canon.
Yeah, it is also a possibility. You can also think that everything is canonical, to exemplify, it is the case with Transformers. You just have to figure out which continuity that work you are dealing with belongs to. The same treatment can be applied in Dragon Ball.
Shineman wrote:For an in-depth view of what "counts", that should be regulated as continuity. Everything is regulated to their own continuity, including the main continuity, the manga; whether or not extension of the manga should be included in the main one is up to airs among the fans (but of course, this doesn't matter in a long run: if the right holders declared that these extensions are part of the main ones and not their own continuity, that's a done deal).
This is just the correct view on the matter.
Pretty much; I think it would be much easier and less of a headache to have endless conversation of which is canon, which is "non-canon", which is kind of canon and what have you. Place everything under canon and separate them as continuities: the main continuity (the manga) and everyone else as their own, unless declared by the right-owners as extension of the main one. Canon should not be interchangeable with continuity, since the former refers to an collection of works (and in this context, everything created by the rights-holders) and the latter refers to an series of events in chronological order (in this context, where the series fit in the timeline and those that don't formed their own continuities from the main one). Non-canon either no longer applies or simply refers to non-official works.

Even in the case with Star Wars, under the Disney banner, the Star Wars Extended Universe stories aren't cast out as "non-canon"; they're still being sold and produced in some fashion under the Legends banner. Instead, they were cast out of the main continuity and regulated as their own.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by KBABZ » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:57 pm

Grimlock wrote:Another example I'm familiar with: Transformers: War for Cybertron (video-game), Transformers Fall of Cybertron (video-game), Transformers: Prime (TV series), Transformers: Rage of the Dinobots (comic book) and Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters (comic book), Transformers: Exodus (novel) all constitute the Aligned continuity (notice that this continuity acknowledges different kind of media, from comic books to games!).
-looks at username- Well I should have seen that one coming.

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by GT_Goten10 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:13 pm

-SDBH is a Promotional Anime for a Game

-DragonBall&Z(Kai)are both based on The Original DB Manga

-DragonBall GT is a Grand Side Story of the Original DB(stated by Toriyama himself)& a Continuation of the DBZ Anime

-the Original DB Movies are Storys in a different dimension(stated by Toriyama himself)

-the Bardock Special is a TV Special written by Toei which was showed one panel in the Original Manga& in the Z Anime

-DragonBall Minus is a Special Manga written by Toriyama which retconned the Bardock Special directly.And it will be Featured in the next Broly Movie

-DragonBall Super(Anime) is a continuation of the Majin Buu Arc(Kai&OG DB Manga) written by Toriyama&(Toei?Toyotaro?)

-DragonBall Super (Manga) made by Toyotaro is Promotional Material for the DBS Anime

2 (Anime)Continuitys..
Classic(1886-2013)
Bardock Special->DB->DBZ->DBGT

Modern(2013-)
Jaco->DB Minus->DB Manga/Kai->DBS Anime->DBS Broly->End of Z(?)->& (as Long as DBS stays in the 10 years Timeskip) DBGT as an alternate Continuation of the End of Z

This is how I see things
GT Fighter

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:16 pm

@ Grimlock:

You suggest that I said that "canon" and "continuity" mean the same semantically. Then you misunderstood me, I fear, because I did not say that. I only looked up both definitions and then applied them to Dragon Ball. As a conclusion, I rather think it comes down to the same content at the end.
Let me explain this, starting from the semantic meaning of the concepts. Because you prefer to refer to an ordinary dictionary instead of Wikipedia, here I use the definitions of 'Urban Dictionary':

Meaning canon
1. "A piece of work -usually in reference to literature- that was written by the original author. Spin-offs, fan fiction, and any work by the original author of that fictional universe is considered non-canon. "(Source: Urban Dictionary)
or
2. "A term used to differentiate between the official storyline (= canon) and everything which is not". (source: Urban Dictionary)

The second meaning is the more modern and extensive interpretation, although in the literature reference is sometimes made to the original meaning. In any case, the two still exist, because they both appear in the dictionary.

Meaning continuity
"A continuous or connected whole."

From a purely semantic point of view, both concepts have a different meaning.
But let's see what this means when we apply those definitions to the Dragon Ball franchise.

1. DB / DBZ / DBS (non-filler material, based on the original manga)
Is this canon?

By definition 1: Yes, the original author, Toriyama, made the story.
By definition 2: Yes, these animes are a part of the official story.

Is this a continuity?

Yes. All events clearly follow each other chronologically.
They are connected to each other.

2. DB / DBZ / DBS (filler material)
Is this canon?

By definition 1: No, not the original author but TOEI made the story.
By definition 2: No, the filler material does not belong to the official story made by Toriyama.

Is this a continuity?

No, why not?
At first sight this seems to belong to the same continuity of the original story.
But: Is the filler material strictly necessary to understand the chronology of the events, and to 'connect' and understand everything?
No, you can perfectly read the original DB Manga as one continuity, or view Dragon Ball Kai as one continuity, without needing the filler material of DB / DBZ. A sufficient argument to conclude that these stories, although sometimes enjoyable, do not belong to the continuity. They do what they are made for: filling up and making extra episodes.

3. DB / DBZ / old films
Is this canon?

By definition 1: No, not the original author but TOEI determined the story.
By definition 2: No, this is not proven. Toriyama said that he was only an observator towards those stories. He probably meant that they were outside the fantasy world of his story. It is not because time is possible and there are other dimensions within the canon, that this automatically means the old films also exist in such an alternative dimension or timeline within the story itself.

To be part of an official story, there must not necessarily be a chronological link, but there must be proof that they are part of the broader picture. It is true that the films are based on the original story, that is the connection. But conversely, there is no reference to the old films in the DB / DBZ / DBS stories. This happens, for example, in the Marvel or DC universe. But within the DB franchise that link is still missing. This link is therefore dependent on one side.

Is this a continuity?

No, the films do not form continuity with the rest of the story. All films themselves do not form a chronological whole either. In other words, they do not fit into the continuity.

4. DB / DBZ / DBS / GT
Is this canon?

By definition 1: No, not the original author but TOEI determined the story.
By definition 2: No, it is originally intended as a follow-up to the original anime, but that has now been revoked. Toriyama also called it a 'side story' in his time. A side story can be part of a larger whole. But not in this case, because it contains information that is contradictory to the rest of the story. 'Side story' therefore means 'not part of the canon'.

Is this a continuity?
No, why not?

In itself GT can come chronologically after DB / DBZ. But since we are in the new movies and DBS in the meantime, the events of GT can not possibly be followed at the events in those new stories. Unless everything was a dream, but I do not really count it as 'part of the story'. As with the films, there is no evidence in the story itself that this would have happened in another dimension or timeline.

What are the old films and GT, if they are not a canon and also do not belong to continuity?
To answer that question, I refer to the following:
"The word" Apocrypha "is sometimes used to describe works in a fictional universe that does not belong in the canon.

These may include merchandise such as video games, novels and comics, which are sometimes termed "Expanded Universes."

I had asked you this question in a previous post:
Could it be confusing 'canon' with 'apocrypha' or 'expanded universes'? "
You have not reacted to this yet. But that is what the old films and GT basically are.
They are based on the original story, completely true, but they are not on canonish level and are not fully connected with the continuity (that's only an assumption they would be).

What can we conclude from that?
In the field of anime, only DB / DBZ / DBS (non-filler material, based on the original manga) corresponds to the two definitions of canon and the definition of one coherent continuity. Although canon and continuity do not mean exactly the same thing purely semantically, they can refer to the same content, the same part of a story.
That is why I referred to it that in this case canon = continuity = official story.
I can understand that some only see the original manga as a canon. If you consider the classical meaning of canon (definition), then the manga is indeed the only thing that Toriyama himself has made completely.

The insinuation that no canon exists or everything canon is, in my opinion, wrong.

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by TheMikado » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:02 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:@ Grimlock:

You suggest that I said that "canon" and "continuity" mean the same semantically. Then you misunderstood me, I fear, because I did not say that. I only looked up both definitions and then applied them to Dragon Ball. As a conclusion, I rather think it comes down to the same content at the end.
Let me explain this, starting from the semantic meaning of the concepts. Because you prefer to refer to an ordinary dictionary instead of Wikipedia, here I use the definitions of 'Urban Dictionary':

Meaning canon
1. "A piece of work -usually in reference to literature- that was written by the original author. Spin-offs, fan fiction, and any work by the original author of that fictional universe is considered non-canon. "(Source: Urban Dictionary)
or
2. "A term used to differentiate between the official storyline (= canon) and everything which is not". (source: Urban Dictionary)

The second meaning is the more modern and extensive interpretation, although in the literature reference is sometimes made to the original meaning. In any case, the two still exist, because they both appear in the dictionary.

Meaning continuity
"A continuous or connected whole."

From a purely semantic point of view, both concepts have a different meaning.
But let's see what this means when we apply those definitions to the Dragon Ball franchise.

1. DB / DBZ / DBS (non-filler material, based on the original manga)
Is this canon?

By definition 1: Yes, the original author, Toriyama, made the story.
By definition 2: Yes, these animes are a part of the official story.

Is this a continuity?

Yes. All events clearly follow each other chronologically.
They are connected to each other.

2. DB / DBZ / DBS (filler material)
Is this canon?

By definition 1: No, not the original author but TOEI made the story.
By definition 2: No, the filler material does not belong to the official story made by Toriyama.

Is this a continuity?

No, why not?
At first sight this seems to belong to the same continuity of the original story.
But: Is the filler material strictly necessary to understand the chronology of the events, and to 'connect' and understand everything?
No, you can perfectly read the original DB Manga as one continuity, or view Dragon Ball Kai as one continuity, without needing the filler material of DB / DBZ. A sufficient argument to conclude that these stories, although sometimes enjoyable, do not belong to the continuity. They do what they are made for: filling up and making extra episodes.

3. DB / DBZ / old films
Is this canon?

By definition 1: No, not the original author but TOEI determined the story.
By definition 2: No, this is not proven. Toriyama said that he was only an observator towards those stories. He probably meant that they were outside the fantasy world of his story. It is not because time is possible and there are other dimensions within the canon, that this automatically means the old films also exist in such an alternative dimension or timeline within the story itself.

To be part of an official story, there must not necessarily be a chronological link, but there must be proof that they are part of the broader picture. It is true that the films are based on the original story, that is the connection. But conversely, there is no reference to the old films in the DB / DBZ / DBS stories. This happens, for example, in the Marvel or DC universe. But within the DB franchise that link is still missing. This link is therefore dependent on one side.

Is this a continuity?

No, the films do not form continuity with the rest of the story. All films themselves do not form a chronological whole either. In other words, they do not fit into the continuity.

4. DB / DBZ / DBS / GT
Is this canon?

By definition 1: No, not the original author but TOEI determined the story.
By definition 2: No, it is originally intended as a follow-up to the original anime, but that has now been revoked. Toriyama also called it a 'side story' in his time. A side story can be part of a larger whole. But not in this case, because it contains information that is contradictory to the rest of the story. 'Side story' therefore means 'not part of the canon'.

Is this a continuity?
No, why not?

In itself GT can come chronologically after DB / DBZ. But since we are in the new movies and DBS in the meantime, the events of GT can not possibly be followed at the events in those new stories. Unless everything was a dream, but I do not really count it as 'part of the story'. As with the films, there is no evidence in the story itself that this would have happened in another dimension or timeline.

What are the old films and GT, if they are not a canon and also do not belong to continuity?
To answer that question, I refer to the following:
"The word" Apocrypha "is sometimes used to describe works in a fictional universe that does not belong in the canon.

These may include merchandise such as video games, novels and comics, which are sometimes termed "Expanded Universes."

I had asked you this question in a previous post:
Could it be confusing 'canon' with 'apocrypha' or 'expanded universes'? "
You have not reacted to this yet. But that is what the old films and GT basically are.
They are based on the original story, completely true, but they are not on canonish level and are not fully connected with the continuity (that's only an assumption they would be).

What can we conclude from that?
In the field of anime, only DB / DBZ / DBS (non-filler material, based on the original manga) corresponds to the two definitions of canon and the definition of one coherent continuity. Although canon and continuity do not mean exactly the same thing purely semantically, they can refer to the same content, the same part of a story.
That is why I referred to it that in this case canon = continuity = official story.
I can understand that some only see the original manga as a canon. If you consider the classical meaning of canon (definition), then the manga is indeed the only thing that Toriyama himself has made completely.

The insinuation that no canon exists or everything canon is, in my opinion, wrong.
so let me fix this for you.

1) Let's not quote urban dictionary for any attempts at an actual academic discussion.
2)Here is the Oxford English Dictionary definition which also explains its original usage and examples.

A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
Thus a "canon" could be considered either based on the artist or the collection. In this case Toriyama would and could have a separate canon which includes canonical works of Dragonball but not all of Dragonball would be Toriyama canon. Further, there would and could be works of canon NOT from Toriyama which are considered canon to Dragonball and separate from the artist. Examples include Star Wars - George Lucas.

Further what does the artist say about his own works?

TRANSLATION
-

ドラゴンボールDVD BOXを買っていただいたみなさん、ほんとうにありがとうございます。
I am truly thankful to all of you who bought this Dragon Ball GT DVD Box.

連載していた ドラゴンボールが無事終了し、本来なまけもののボクは やっと しめきり地獄から解放されめちゃめちゃ 喜んでいました。
Having quietly ended Dragon Ball in serialization, I, who am lazy by nature, was happy to finally be liberated from Deadline Hell.

テレビアニメの方はもうすこし続けたいとのことでしたが、ボクはもうこれ以上は…。というわけでドラゴンボールのアニメはストーリーも含め、すっかりアニメスタッフの方々におまかせすることになったのです。
The people from the TV anime were wanting to continue just a little further, but since I didn't want to do any more than I already had, I ended up leaving everything, including the story, up to the people on the anime staff.

それが『ドラゴンボールGT』です。
That is "Dragon Ball GT".

GTというのはクルマ用語で「グランツーリスモ」つまり速くて高性能なクルマってことですが、この場合は宇宙を駆けまわるっていう設定でしたので「グランドツーリング」壮大な旅という意味を込んでGTとしました。
"GT" is an automotive term, "gran turismo" -- in other words, a fast, powerful car. But in this case, since the plan was to be running all around the universe, I made it GT, carrying the meaning of a great journey, "grand touring."

GTでボクがやったことといえば このタイトルと最初の主要メンバー、一部のメカデザインと数枚のイメージカットだけですが、ずっとドラゴンボールを続けていただいてきた優秀なスタッフのみなさんなので 安心して おまかせすることができたのです。
In GT, the only contributions that I made were the title, the initial main character designs, some of the mecha designs, and a number of image cuts. But thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball, I was able to relax and leave it to them.

とくに、アニメーターの中鶴くんは すごい腕前で、ボクの絵のクセなんかをあっというまに会得してしまい、ときどき自分でも このキャラデザインを描いたのは、ボクか?中鶴くんか? などとわからなくなることがあったりするぐらいです。
In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is so skilled, and has such understanding of the peculiarities of my drawings, that there have been times that even I have been like, "Did I draw this character design, or did Nakatsuru-kun?," not being able to tell the difference.

たとえば このGTに登場する『スーパーサイヤ人4』というのは中鶴くんのデザインで、上に描いた絵は、ボクがそれを見て描いた 似顔絵なんです。うまく描いたでしょうか?
For example, "Super Saiyan 4," which appears in GT, was Nakatsuru-kun's design. The image I drew above is the likeness I made after looking at it. Did I do a good job?

原作 ドラゴンボールの 壮大なサイドストーリーであるドラゴンボールGTを ボクといっしょに楽しく観ていただければ 幸いです。
If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased.

鳥山明
Akira Toriyama

-------------

Toriyama explains many times that GT is a CONTINUATION of his original manga. Thus being recognized by the artist that it is an authenic and authorized work to his Dragonball story. While being seperate from Toriyama's work it is still part of the the official Dragonball work and continuity.

Now as a discussion on the "Side Story" myth. First a definition.
Gaiden (外伝, pronounced [ɡaideɴ])[1] is a Japanese-language word meaning "side story" or "tale", used to refer to an anecdote or supplementary biography of a person. The use of gaiden is commonly used in popular Japanese fiction to refer to a spin-off of a previously published work that is neither officially considered a sequel nor a prequel. However, some gaiden are retold stories in the perspective of a different character, similar to that of a flashback

This is what many attempt to claim was Toriyama's description of Dragonball GT. This is a lie. As can be seen from the actual direct translation from Toriyama, he NEVER uses the term "Gaiden" to describe Dragonball GT and that was someone who doesn't know a thing about what they are talking about re-translating it back into Japanese in and assigning a phrase Toriyama didn't use. Toriyama does describe it a side story but NEVER a Gaiden which is typically attributed to NON-canonical works. Instead he opts to use a much different description to refer to GT.

Recap:
Toriyama has a canon.
Dragonball has a canon.

Be specific on which one is which.

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by KBABZ » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:06 pm

Good grief guys don't full quote each other like that!

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:57 pm

Meaning canon
1. "A piece of work -usually in reference to literature- that was written by the original author. Spin-offs, fan fiction, and any work not written by the original author of that fictional universe is considered non-canon. "(Source: Urban Dictionary)

Erratum, sorry guys!

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by TheMikado » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:47 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:Meaning canon
1. "A piece of work -usually in reference to literature- that was written by the original author. Spin-offs, fan fiction, and any work not written by the original author of that fictional universe is considered non-canon. "(Source: Urban Dictionary)

Erratum, sorry guys!
You can’t seriously be trying to prop up the urban dictionary for slang terms against the Oxford English Dictionary. Is this a real post or a troll?

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:42 am

Mister_Popo wrote:Could it be confusing 'canon' with 'apocrypha' or 'expanded universes'? "
You have not reacted to this yet. But that is what the old films and GT basically are.
By the definition you provided, it seems to me that "Apocrypha" relates to an officially established canon, which Dragon Ball does not have. That is why I did not react.
Mister_Popo wrote:The insinuation that no canon exists or everything canon is, in my opinion, wrong.
Alright, it's agree to disagree. This won't get us anywhere.
Shineman wrote:Pretty much; I think it would be much easier and less of a headache to have endless conversation of which is canon, which is "non-canon", which is kind of canon and what have you. Place everything under canon and separate them as continuities: the main continuity (the manga) and everyone else as their own, unless declared by the right-owners as extension of the main one. Canon should not be interchangeable with continuity, since the former refers to an collection of works (and in this context, everything created by the rights-holders) and the latter refers to an series of events in chronological order (in this context, where the series fit in the timeline and those that don't formed their own continuities from the main one). Non-canon either no longer applies or simply refers to non-official works.
I can't believe that you summarized my point of view on the matter perfectly and in such a short text! I would probably have to write a bible to explain it. :o Congrats! :clap:

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:23 am

an officially established canon, which Dragon Ball does not have.
Yes it does. Toriyama's manga is canon. What would it mean for his story to not be canon?
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 pm

If this settles it: 'Only the manga is hardcore canon (Toriyama made it himself), all the rest is adaptation of his work, it depends and can vary on interpretation of the individual which degree of canonicity the adapted stories have'.

Although as far as i'm concerned there is no doubt, i can accept other opinions. Denoting the original manga as non-canon however, really isn't justified in my opinion.
For the rest, think as you like guys. :crazy:

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Noah » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:01 pm

ABED wrote:I think many place too much importance on what is and isn't canon.
Exactly, because many still has this twisted mindset that non canon stuff are factually bad or such.
Mister_Popo wrote:If this settles it: "Only the manga is hardcore canon (Toriyama made it himself), all the rest is adaptation of his work..."
But that's indeed the truth, only Toriyama himself or Toei could tell otherwise and to this day, they didn't.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:57 pm

Noah wrote:
ABED wrote:I think many place too much importance on what is and isn't canon.
Exactly, because many still has this twisted mindset that non canon stuff are factually bad or such.
There is a bunch of filler that's enjoyable, but even if most of it was enjoyable, when all seen together, the filler slows the pacing to a crawl.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by zarmack » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:17 pm

Basically, there are 3 continuities:

1. Jaco/DB Minus -> Original Manga -> DBS Manga

2. Bardock FoG -> Early DB Anime -> DBZ -> DBGT

3. Early DB Anime -> DBKai -> DBS Anime -> DBS Broly

That's how I see it.

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by GT_Goten10 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:24 pm

zarmack wrote:Basically, there are 3 continuities:

1. Jaco/DB Minus -> Original Manga -> DBS Manga

2. Bardock FoG -> Early DB Anime -> DBZ -> DBGT

3. Early DB Anime -> DBKai -> DBS Anime -> DBS Broly

That's how I see it.
I agree with this but isn’t the DBS Manga just Promotional material for the Anime&the Anime is the continuation of the original Manga?
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by zarmack » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:34 pm

GT_Goten10 wrote:
zarmack wrote:Basically, there are 3 continuities:

1. Jaco/DB Minus -> Original Manga -> DBS Manga

2. Bardock FoG -> Early DB Anime -> DBZ -> DBGT

3. Early DB Anime -> DBKai -> DBS Anime -> DBS Broly

That's how I see it.
I agree with this but isn’t the DBS Manga just Promotional material for the Anime&the Anime is the continuation of the original Manga?
There are so many differences between Super's anime and manga versions that they are now considered separate series for the most part.

The DBS Anime directly follows DBKai (which has some anime-only changes from Z), while the DBS Manga directly follows the original manga.

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by KBABZ » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:08 pm

GT_Goten10 wrote:
zarmack wrote:Basically, there are 3 continuities:

1. Jaco/DB Minus -> Original Manga -> DBS Manga

2. Bardock FoG -> Early DB Anime -> DBZ -> DBGT

3. Early DB Anime -> DBKai -> DBS Anime -> DBS Broly

That's how I see it.
I agree with this but isn’t the DBS Manga just Promotional material for the Anime&the Anime is the continuation of the original Manga?
That's pretty hilarious to say really considering that Dragon Ball has effectively run on self-promotion since its inception, certainly since the anime started and especially when it doubled-down hard with Z, GT, and the post anime era when all it had was the animanga and various video games.

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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Gligarman » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:07 pm

I was under the impression that if Toriyama didn't write it, it's not canon. Apparently I was mistaken and many people did not know this. That would explain why Youtube was filled to the brim with conveniently 10 minute long clickbait rants complaining about the Bardock special not linking with the new movie. Because apparently none of them have read the manga.

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