Question about FUNi's masters

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eledoremassis02
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Question about FUNi's masters

Post by eledoremassis02 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:16 am

Just noticed the Orange Brick (from different masters) shot and the Pioneer/Rock the Dragon set has this same mark. Could they of had the same masters (though the pioneer ones were said to be from digibetas)?
ImageImage

Is this somthing that occurs in other broadcasts (Japan, eslewhere, 4:3 ultimate uncuts)

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by djkalteraphine » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:26 am

IIRC, everything Funi has put out, apart from their import release of the Dragon Box Z, has been from the original masters purchased from Toei animation back when Gen Fukunaga first had the crazy scheme in his brain to bring the show to American shores. Their "remastering" processes can only do so much, since they're automated. Unless they spent a ridiculous amount of money actually fixing things frame-by-frame, or Toei miraculously gave them the real masters (I've heard they're notoriously bad about this to everyone), no new release is going to contain anything remarkably better than what we first saw in the '90s. It can look better, sure, but it'll always be a neutered product.

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by eledoremassis02 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:35 am

djkalteraphine wrote:IIRC, everything Funi has put out, apart from their import release of the Dragon Box Z, has been from the original masters purchased from Toei animation back when Gen Fukunaga first had the crazy scheme in his brain to bring the show to American shores. Their "remastering" processes can only do so much, since they're automated. Unless they spent a ridiculous amount of money actually fixing things frame-by-frame, or Toei miraculously gave them the real masters (I've heard they're notoriously bad about this to everyone), no new release is going to contain anything remarkably better than what we first saw in the '90s. It can look better, sure, but it'll always be a neutered product.
That would make sense. I coulda sword some reputable people on here said the original was digibeta and they got new masters for the Orange Bricks. Do the blurays have this mark too? (It's when the nameks come to fight frieza)

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by djkalteraphine » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:05 am

eledoremassis02 wrote:
djkalteraphine wrote:IIRC, everything Funi has put out, apart from their import release of the Dragon Box Z, has been from the original masters purchased from Toei animation back when Gen Fukunaga first had the crazy scheme in his brain to bring the show to American shores. Their "remastering" processes can only do so much, since they're automated. Unless they spent a ridiculous amount of money actually fixing things frame-by-frame, or Toei miraculously gave them the real masters (I've heard they're notoriously bad about this to everyone), no new release is going to contain anything remarkably better than what we first saw in the '90s. It can look better, sure, but it'll always be a neutered product.
That would make sense. I coulda sword some reputable people on here said the original was digibeta and they got new masters for the Orange Bricks. Do the blurays have this mark too? (It's when the nameks come to fight Freeza)
They very well could have, and I could be remembering wrong. Though if they are two different masters, they both have the exact same color flaws.

Japanese Broadcast/Dragon Box
Image

Orange Brick (taken from Hulu, so the resolution is bigger than it'd be on DVD, sorry)
Image

American TV broadcast from the late 90s
Image

Notice how the colors are fundamentally different in the Japanese Broadcast, while the Brick is mostly just a cropped and lightened version of the original American broadcast from the 90s.

For comparison's sake, here's Kai (bluray, uncropped)
Image

Notice that Kai has the same color palette as the Japanese Broadcast - this palette should be taken as the "true" colors of DBZ, colors we were denied in the US unless you watched the Japanese Raw broadcast on International Channel or the Latin American broadcast on Univision.

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by Ajay » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:28 am

djkalteraphine wrote: Notice that Kai has the same color palette as the Japanese Broadcast - this palette should be taken as the "true" colors of DBZ, colors we were denied in the US unless you watched the Japanese Raw broadcast on International Channel or the Latin American broadcast on Univision.
No, the Dragon Box and Kai are not the 'true colours' nor do they match the Japanese broadcast. The Dragon Boxes have significant colour shift due to aging film so you can't label it as 'Japanese Broadcast'. Kai has its own colour palette that they decided on themselves to make the show more 'modern', too. They even mentioned they were going to fix the sky prior to broadcast but never actually did, so don't use that as a measurement for anything.

Here's some shots from the actual Japanese broadcast:

Image
I'm interested to know what the source is on that US VHS broadcast tape. It looks like the colours have been tampered with.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by djkalteraphine » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:20 am

Hey man, no reason to immediately jump down my throat.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:No, the Dragon Box and Kai are not the 'true colours' nor do they match the Japanese broadcast. The Dragon Boxes have significant colour shift due to aging film so you can't label it as 'Japanese Broadcast'. Kai has its own colour palette that they decided on themselves to make the show more 'modern', too. They even mentioned they were going to fix the sky prior to broadcast but never actually did, so don't use that as a measurement for anything.
While I'm not saying you're wrong, that seems a bit like hearing hooves and calling it a zebra. Why go through the trouble of recoloring something if you're going to recolor it wrong? Not that Toei hasn't done more baffling things.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:I'm interested to know what the source is on that US VHS broadcast tape. It looks like the colours have been tampered with.
It's from some old .rmv that we taken from the old Saban era airings. I assure you I've not 'tampered with any evidence'. What you're likely seeing is the compression from that dinosaur file type. Turn it down about 75%.

Also, yelling at me isn't really the topic, though it can be so gratifying to know a thing when someone else doesn't.

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:08 am

djkalteraphine wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:No, the Dragon Box and Kai are not the 'true colours' nor do they match the Japanese broadcast. The Dragon Boxes have significant colour shift due to aging film so you can't label it as 'Japanese Broadcast'. Kai has its own colour palette that they decided on themselves to make the show more 'modern', too. They even mentioned they were going to fix the sky prior to broadcast but never actually did, so don't use that as a measurement for anything.
While I'm not saying you're wrong, that seems a bit like hearing hooves and calling it a zebra. Why go through the trouble of recoloring something if you're going to recolor it wrong?
I asked the same thing when I saw that the Kai broadcast of the Buu arc now has a green tint. I don't know why Toei suddenly felt like mimicking the style of the Wachowski brothers, but they did. Then again, as it has been mentioned elsewhere, in Japan, the TV show was created mainly to help sell toys. That's why only a limited number of Dragon Boxes were sold. Toei kind of approached it with the attitude of, "Why do you want the show? It's just the show." Over here, it's different. Over here, the show itself is the main product. Unfortunately, the creators don't hold the same view, and for that reason have not taken the greatest care of the original materials (visual and audio) than they otherwise might have.

In any event, the comparison that AjayLikesGaming has provided is an example of why I've always felt the Dragon Boxes, while not bad, are rather overrated. The Buu arc of Kai has a green tint, the Dragon Boxes have a red tint. It's highly unlikely that we're ever going to get a home video release with colors that match the original Japanese broadcast.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by Bardo117 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:20 am

And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:23 am

Bardo117 wrote:And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
Well, because that's how the show was seen, and it wouldn't have been seen unless Toei intended for it to be seen that way.

Not to mention that the broadcast audio sounds better than any home video release, and the TV broadcast has colors that are far closer to the colors of the original animation cells than the Dragon Boxes.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by Ajay » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:31 am

Whoah, whoah, whoah. I wasn't yelling or accusing you of tampering with evidence. I was just pointing out some errors and questioning where the screenshot came from as it looked like the colours were off. There's no need to take my post so personally nor tell me to 'turn it down about 75%'. Beyond confused. If I've come across poorly over text then I can only apologise. Furthest thing from my intentions, dude.

Anyway, that peculiar misunderstanding aside:

Toei didn't recolour the Dragon Boxes, that's an unfortunate issue. It's why we have threads like this - http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=19448

Unless you're referring to their efforts with Kai? There's two sides to that, really. The first one I already mentioned - they seemingly wanted a unique colour palette to fall more in line with modern Dragon Ball. Secondly, it would appear they looked to the original animation cels as a way to determine how to colour correct:

Image

The issue with this is that it doesn't take into account the intended output once it was photographed. Different film stock produces varying colour outputs, as well as being void of any of the intended post-process direction. Considering they were using cheap 16mm film for this show, the colour shifts would be far more drastic, and the cels would likely need to compensate for this.

If we compare the earlier skies to the ones found in the later episodes, there's only major discrepancies in the DBOX and Kai footage. In the original broadcast, they match perfectly.

Image
Image

Kai:
What are the chances of them suddenly changing the entire colour of the earth's sky?

It's already been mentioned, but Dragon Ball is a real mess when it comes to consistent colour on home releases. The original broadcast is very consistent from start to finish in its colour choices. FUNi's level sets are probably the closest we've come to seeing it as intended. Unfortunately, their masters aren't first generation, so they're lacking a lot of black detail that was originally there.
Last edited by Ajay on Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by Bardo117 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:37 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Bardo117 wrote:And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
Well, because that's how the show was seen, and it wouldn't have been seen unless Toei intended for it to be seen that way.

Not to mention that the broadcast audio sounds better than any home video release, and the TV broadcast has colors that are far closer to the colors of the original animation cells than the Dragon Boxes.

That's not necessarily true, what if they were just doing the best with what they had? Or what if nobody really cared for presenting the show in any specific way? I honestly think they showed it however they could just to get the show out there, not much thought must of been given into the colors or presentation, just as long as it shows and there's no major problems they'll be fine.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by eledoremassis02 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:28 pm

So FUNi was using film all along? huh
Image
also. Here's some shots from Rock the Dragon
Image

Image

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by Metalwario64 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:14 pm

FUNi used digibeta tapes before the Orange Bricks, where they used a copy of 16mm film that they bought from Toei.

Therefore, it's probably a safe bet that they aren't the same masters, and the damage is from the original film, prior to the Dragon Box cleanup.
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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by eledoremassis02 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:10 pm

I just checked one of my old fansub episodes copied from TVB and it's missing those marks on Raditz...hmmm :think:

Does anyone else have this episode from sources outside FUNi?

Kei, can you help us figure this out?!! If KEI CAN'T HELP US WHO CAN?! 8)

Also, Unless FUNi changed the contrast for the DVDs. Here's a comparison of the DVD and a VHS copy. The VHS looks a lot like Rock the Dragon
Image

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Re: Question about FUNi's masters

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:14 pm

Note: Nothing in this post is related to the topic. You can skip it if you want.
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Bardo117 wrote:And why is the original Japanese broadcast so important? What if that's the one that's incorrect ? Why does everybody assume that that's 'How the show was intended to be seen' ,
Well, because that's how the show was seen, and it wouldn't have been seen unless Toei intended for it to be seen that way.

Not to mention that the broadcast audio sounds better than any home video release, and the TV broadcast has colors that are far closer to the colors of the original animation cells than the Dragon Boxes.
I think that Bardo117 just proved why the original may not always be the best even if it's the intended viewing style. Sometimes a different version is better (e.x. music, coloring, etc.). Similar thing with Yu-Gi-Oh! The Movie (A.K.A. Pyramid of Light back in 2004). It was made in the U.S. but in Japan they changed a few things and even though it wasn't the original, I preferred Japan's version.
eledoremassis02 wrote:I just checked one of my old fansub episodes copied from TVB and it's missing those marks on Raditz...hmmm :think:

Does anyone else have this episode from sources outside FUNi?

Kei, can you help us figure this out?!! If KEI CAN'T HELP US WHO CAN?! 8)

Also, Unless FUNi changed the contrast for the DVDs. Here's a comparison of the DVD and a VHS copy. The VHS looks a lot like Rock the Dragon
Frieza's face in that picture is wonderful. It made me chuckle.

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