What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy?

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:15 pm

Tyro wrote:^
DBZAOTA482 wrote:*A stupidly large amount of pictures*
People posting a mile's worth of pictures when there's a perfectly good spoiler coding system in place really brings out my irate fanboy. And the people who quote said mile of pictures to make a one-sentence reply are even worse.
Fixed by the way. Sorry :(
DBZAOTA482 wrote: She's 9/10.
Okay. Kid :D Even more reasons to act like she did.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:27 pm

Okay, here goes.

Yamucha IS a failure. But that is to say he's a failure on the part of Toriyama.

Let's take a look at movie Kuririn as a counterexample. There he is treated primarily as a joke. He's plucky comic relief. He's there to throw his hat into the ring, get soundly thrashed, and say some line like, "Why does this always happen to me?" You may argue whether or not it's effective. Some will say it's endearing. Others will say it's insulting. But you can't deny that that's on purpose. It's his shtick. The creative staff are clearly in on the joke. They are clearly making a joke.

The way Yamucha is treated is nothing like that, at least not until close to the end of the series. Yes, there's the first arc, but everyone has silly moments there, and Yamucha's role is a comedic villain to be thwarted. Stupid things happen to him, but he's still treated as a threat. So let's just look at how he's treated after he joins the ranks of the good guy fighting characters. Here's the problem I see with a lot of the arguments against him: They're all made in retrospect with the benefit of hindsight. I see people claiming both that "He's Toriyama's joke" and "He's a measuring stick." It's impossible for him to be both! The two are incompatible. In order to be an effective measuring stick, a character has to be taken seriously. When Jackie Chun takes out Yamucha, no one in the story's going, "Haha! That's the kind of crap you expect from someone like Yamucha!" No. Goku's saying, "Holy shit! Yamucha's strong and fast! How could this old man take him out?" The problem is that that's almost all he ends up being used for. Fans looking back on all of those instances cumulatively have an awareness of how that makes the character look: it makes him look pathetic and weak. And so they make jokes about it. But Toriyama seems to have been completely in the dark about it.

In fact, if you look at any of those defeats, none of them are played for humor in the story. Jackie Chun, Mummy-kun, Tenshinhan, Shen, the Saibaiman, Dr. Gero... those are all played completely straight in terms of their impact. "Yamucha lost. That's bad news. We're devastated! How could somebody do that?" Not, "God, why do we even bother to bring this guy along?" And no, Shen does not count. In Yamucha versus Shen, SHEN is the joke. That's the point! When Yamucha is hit in the balls, it's not played as a reflection of Yamucha being pathetic. The joke is that someone as pathetic-looking as Shen is making the mighty fighter Yamucha look like an idiot. The first time his relative strength is actually played for a joke isn't until the very end of the Cell arc, when, while defending Kuririn's pride, he threatens to knock #18's block off, and Tenshinhan remarks he probably couldn't do it.

Once again, the failure lies at the feet of Toriyama because he failed to do one of two things: either make Yamucha a more effective measuring stick by letting him have more successful fighting moments and remain relevant as a badass, or become aware of the joke earlier and actually do something with it (a la movie Kuririn) and let him be comic relief. But Toriyama did neither. And that's why Yamucha serves as such an effective punching bag for a lot of the fandom. He's not given enough moments to shine, but unlike someone like Yajirobe, who manages to embrace that role, there's little to take away from those failures, not even humor.

It's clear that Toriyama just lost interest him fairly early on. And that's a shame because he was such a fascinating character when he was first introduced. But I think it's as clear as far back as the Bouken Special that Toriyama just didn't give a rat's ass about developing him or having fun with him. I mean, in those character bios, even the most minor characters have interesting tidbits about them. When you get to the bio of Yamucha, one of the main characters, you get, "Hobbies: 'I don't really have any of those.'" Seriously?! And personally, I think that's because Kuririn ended up being a Yamucha 2.0, and most of the interesting things about Yamucha ended up being passed along to Kuririn. They're largely the same character. They're both friendly rivals of Goku. They both train under the Muten Roshi. They are both more sociable and "everyman" characters compared to the single-minded and solitary Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Vegeta mold. They both, at various points, suffer from awkwardness with women and dream of getting married. So having both of them is ultimately redundant. And Toriyama clearly like Kuririn better. So Yamucha just suffered from neglect. Honestly, he probably would have been better off had he been allowed to be a joke.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:50 pm

SHEN is the joke.
He's not the joke, he's disarmingly funny and landing on your nards would make a joke out of anyone.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:57 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Okay, here goes.

Yamucha IS a failure.
He is not a failure, he is one of the most strongest martial artists in the Earth, and not only Earth, but in the whole Universe. Hardly a failure IMO.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:17 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:Okay, here goes.

Yamucha IS a failure.
He is not a failure, he is one of the most strongest martial artists in the Earth, and not only Earth, but in the whole Universe. Hardly a failure IMO.
Yamcha's not even among the top three strongest earthlings...

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:20 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:Okay, here goes.

Yamucha IS a failure.
He is not a failure, he is one of the most strongest martial artists in the Earth, and not only Earth, but in the whole Universe. Hardly a failure IMO.
Maybe if you'd read past the first sentence instead of immediately taking offense, you would have understood that I wasn't insulting Yamucha or even talking about him from in-universe perspective.
ABED wrote:He's not the joke, he's disarmingly funny
Something that is funny is the literal definition of a joke.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:24 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Maybe if you'd read past the first sentence instead of immediately taking offense, you would have understood that I wasn't insulting Yamucha or even talking about him from in-universe perspective.
I read your whole post, I still disagree with the notion that Yamcha is a failure. He isn't in my opinion.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:28 pm

Again, I'm not talking about the "person" of Yamucha. I'm talking about him as an object of a writer. Toriyama created him as an interesting character, shifted him to a device used to measure the strength of new characters without giving him enough triumphant moments to make that role work. As such, a large portion of the fanbase (not me) sees him as useless. The fact that so many people feel that way makes that a failure on Toriyama's part.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:32 pm

Something that is funny is the literal definition of a joke.
He uses humor to disarm people, but he's not a joke.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:35 pm

I think you and I are using different definitions of "joke" here. As in, you seem to be using it in the context of something akin to how most people say, "Yamucha is a joke." As in, worthy of derision, lacking in useful skills. I'm using it simply to mean something humorous and disarming. Shen is bumbling and silly, and other characters laugh at him for it. I don't even see how this is up for debate. God took on the guise specifically to elicit such a reaction. Shen is a joke. Then he turns the joke around on you. That's the entire point of his character.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:39 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:I think you and I are using different definitions of "joke" here. As in, you seem to be using it in the context of something akin to, "Yamucha is a joke." As in, worthy of derision. I'm using it simply to mean something humorous and disarming. Shen is bumbling and silly, and other characters laugh at him for it. I don't even see how this is up for debate. God took on the guise specifically to elicit such a reaction. Shen is a joke. Then he turns the joke around on you. That's the entire point of his character.
The point was to make him seem like a joke to throw off suspicion, but maybe also impart some knowledge. He's like Reeve's Clark Kent.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:40 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Again, I'm not talking about the "person" of Yamucha. I'm talking about him as an object of a writer. Toriyama created him as an interesting character, shifted him to a device used to measure the strength of new characters without giving him enough triumphant moments to make that role work. As such, a large portion of the fanbase (not me) sees him as useless. The fact that so many people feel that way makes that a failure on Toriyama's part.
I still don't see him as a failure though, sure he could be executed better by Toriyama, but as for now I don't see him any more a failure than say people like Chi-Chi, Krillin, Yajirobe, Muten Roshi, Chiaotzu, etc. All of them could be used in the story better, become much stronger and relevant, etc, but they were not. I still don't find Yamcha being a failure, considering that he is the 4th (or even 3rd if we discount Uub) strongest human in the Earth. A lot of people could only dream about it. He can fly, use Ki, he can destroy planet (if we believe that Saiyan Saga Vegeta is able to do so), he can beat likes of Mister Satan while being asleep and without using his hands, he is also always there to support his friends, he helped to deliver Goku at his home, gave him a cure, he also comforted Trunks after him starting doubting Vegeta, and thinking that his father didn't love him, despite Yamcha disliking Vegeta, he is quite an admirable person in all ways, he is a good friend of Goku (as well as one of the first ones, right after Bulma), he is strong, and excellent martial artist. Not to mention that in original Dragon Ball he was the one to tell Puar to transform into the scissors to cut off Oozaru Goku's tail, he was the one to come up with this plan, he was one of the few who knew it would work, and he was the only one fighter to be there in time. He saved a lot of cities from being destroyed by rampaged Oozaru Goku. He saved Bulma from Oozaru Goku, and Bulma later became one of the most important characters in the whole series. He also saved Goku even before, from Monster Carrot's gang. He was also the first one to forgive Tien, after everything he did to him, which let him to mellow out even faster and become a proper part of the crew. So while he could be used much better by Toriyama, I don't see him as a failure. And if he is, then not more than any other humans who was left behind before him for the sake of Saiyans and other characters. As for character being used to showcase the power of villains, Vegeta was used as such as well later, but hardly anyone calls him a failure. Vegeta also never defeated any of the main villains, despite being an elite saiyan. While Yamcha was always just a human.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:Okay, here goes.

Yamucha IS a failure.
He is not a failure, he is one of the most strongest martial artists in the Earth, and not only Earth, but in the whole Universe. Hardly a failure IMO.
Yamcha's not even among the top three strongest earthlings...
He is, if we discount Uub, and honestly we don't even know how Yamcha rates compared with Krillin and Tien. And why should someone be in top three to be cool? We are speaking about the person literally being the 4th (or 3rd if we discount Uub) strongest human in the Earth, heck a lot of people would have dreamed to get in top 100, or even top 1000, let alone being in top-5 or even top-3 :( Vegeta is also not in the top three strongest beings, he is behind Whis, Beerus and Goku.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by rereboy » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:25 am

ABED wrote: There is canon. Saying there isn't doesn't make me irate, but it does mildly annoy me. Canon differentiates itself from things like fanfiction.
Er.. No, being official is what differentiates it from fan fiction, not canon. Canon is simply a differentiating notion or criteria to group official events into different continuities or sequences of events, which allows everyone to dismiss certain official events and certain products as not part of the canon, aka main sequence of events of the series. But, there has never been any official source stating exactly what is canon and what is not in detail, so, there's actually no established canon in Dragon Ball.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:35 am

rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote: There is canon. Saying there isn't doesn't make me irate, but it does mildly annoy me. Canon differentiates itself from things like fanfiction.
Er.. No, being official is what differentiates it from fan fiction, not canon. Canon is simply a differentiating notion or criteria to group official events into different continuities or sequences of events, which allows everyone to dismiss certain official events and certain products as not part of the canon, aka main sequence of events of the series. But, there has never been any official source stating exactly what is canon and what is not in detail, so, there's actually no established canon in Dragon Ball.
You don't need someone to say "this is canon". It's implicit that Toriyama's story is canon. What would it mean to say the story isn't canon to itself? Things like fanfiction aren't canon because it doesn't come from the official source - the story written by the author.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:49 am

ABED wrote:
rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote: There is canon. Saying there isn't doesn't make me irate, but it does mildly annoy me. Canon differentiates itself from things like fanfiction.
Er.. No, being official is what differentiates it from fan fiction, not canon. Canon is simply a differentiating notion or criteria to group official events into different continuities or sequences of events, which allows everyone to dismiss certain official events and certain products as not part of the canon, aka main sequence of events of the series. But, there has never been any official source stating exactly what is canon and what is not in detail, so, there's actually no established canon in Dragon Ball.
You don't need someone to say "this is canon". It's implicit that Toriyama's story is canon. What would it mean to say the story isn't canon to itself? Things like fanfiction aren't canon because it doesn't come from the official source - the story written by the author.
Even if you sum it up to that, you'll still find plenty of people who take certain degrees with what of Toriyama's stuff actually counts. Some only consider the original run of the manga as the true story with everything after or around it, even by Toriyama, just alternate universes. Some count the manga and the new movies, others do that and add DB- to that list.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by rereboy » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:56 am

ABED wrote: You don't need someone to say "this is canon". It's implicit that Toriyama's story is canon. What would it mean to say the story isn't canon to itself? Things like fanfiction aren't canon because it doesn't come from the official source - the story written by the author.
To have an established canon it's not enough to just have something that we are pretty sure that would be considered canon if an official source actually stated what is canon an what's not.

The whole purpose of the canon classification is precisely to extinguish doubts regarding whether some set of events belongs in the main continuity of events or if it's something apart from it.

If we simply have no official word on exactly what is and what's not canon, there will always be doubts regarding certain products, like filler from DBZ, moviers, GT, BOG, Super and others.

Being sure that the manga would be considered canon by an official source because it's the original work, and being sure that fan fiction wouldn't be considered canon by an official source due to it being non official material, isn't enough to establish a canon.

Also, true canon must always come from official sources. When it comes from fans, even if the fans are pretty sure it would match the official canon if an official source talked about it, it's still personal or fan canon because it doesn't come from an official source.

So, since no official source has commented on exactly is and what isn't canon, there's obviously no established canon, only personal canon, and since there's plenty of products that could be considered canon or not by official sources, there's also no guarantee that any personal canon would match the official canon if it was established.

So, talking about canon in Dragon Ball as anything other than a subjective thing is pointless. And, like I said, official products distinguish themselves from fan fiction because they are official, the discussion of being canon or not shouldn't even enter the equation when talking about that because, obviously, it's only possible for canon to be applied to official products, unless we have a pretty broad sense of canon and blatantly ignore the difference between fanfiction and official products.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:21 am

To have an established canon it's not enough to just have something that we are pretty sure that would be considered canon if an official source actually stated what is canon an what's not.
This statement makes no sense. How can a story not be canon to itself? Why must you have a source say "This is canon"? And something can be official but still not be canon, such as an elseworlds tale. Novelization of films are official, but that doesn't make any changes it makes canon. On Friends, the episode "The One That Could Have Been" isn't canon to the main series because it didn't actually happen.
The whole purpose of the canon classification is precisely to extinguish doubts regarding whether some set of events belongs in the main continuity of events or if it's something apart from it.
Exactly, and you don't need some official source to explicitly state that their story is in continuity with itself. It makes absolutely ZERO sense to say that a story isn't canon to itself.
When it comes from fans, even if the fans are pretty sure it would match the official canon if an official source talked about it, it's still personal or fan canon because it doesn't come from an official source.
Never said otherwise.
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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by rereboy » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:50 am

ABED wrote: This statement makes no sense. How can a story not be canon to itself? Why must you have a source say "This is canon"? And something can be official but still not be canon, such as an elseworlds tale. Novelization of films are official, but that doesn't make any changes it makes canon. On Friends, the episode "The One That Could Have Been" isn't canon to the main series because it didn't actually happen.
No one said that the manga wouldn't be canon.

What I said is that there's a difference between saying that the manga is canon, and saying that you are sure that the manga is considered canon in a hypothetical official canon that hasn't been established so far.

The first implies that canon exists and therefore has been established, which is simply not true. The other accurately describes what you think the canon regarding the manga would be if it had been established, which it hasn't.

It's a matter of accuracy. It's pointless to talk about canon like it exists, like it has been established. It hasn't. At most we have our opinions regarding what should be canon, but the fact that we agree that the manga would surely be considered canon, it doesn't make true that the canon exists, that it was established. It wasn't.
Exactly, and you don't need some official source to explicitly state that their story is in continuity with itself. It makes absolutely ZERO sense to say that a story isn't canon to itself.
Once again, no one said that the manga wouldn't be canon. And, canon isn't limited to knowing if the manga would be canon. What about all the other official works? For canon to exist, for it to be established, that also has to be clarified and specified, otherwise, at best, we would only have an incomplete or partial established canon if an official source only talked about some products and left out others. But no official word has ever been made regarding canon of any product, so there's no canon, not even partial.
Never said otherwise.
You talked about canon like it exists, like it has been established. I explained the difference.

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by nickzambuto » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:52 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:But I think it's as clear as far back as the Bouken Special that Toriyama just didn't give a rat's ass about developing him or having fun with him.
Bouken Special? I'm not too well versed in Japanese terms. What are you referring to?

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Re: What phrases/opinions/things bring out your irate fanboy

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:56 pm

Super is way better than GT as a whole after 8 episodes. I mean sure say perhaps the first arc of Super is better than the first arc GT when it's done, but it's been 8 episodes. Such a claim I find silly when Super as a series isn't even done yet.
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