#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by rereboy » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:42 pm

GeeRod wrote:
Because in the ''Dragon Ball logic'' is that a SSJ is someone with blonde spiky hair. If you want to go against what the author says and the series says, well that's your problem.
Nobody is saying that SSJs aren't saiyans with skipy golden hair.

What is being said is that, since saiyans have tails and transform into giant monkeys, a SSJ transformation that uses some of those elements (tail, fur, etc) is more logical than just spiky golden hair.

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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:45 pm

GeeRod wrote:
Barunks wrote:
GeeRod wrote:I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
Indeed, if they ran the show they might have included down right crazy stuff like some kinf of golden freeza and blue super saiyans...
Yeah imagine if they add some crazy pink monkey and call it SSJ4? In a series so bad that most of the fans hate and don't care. That will be really bad :D
SSJ4 was a logically sound idea within the context of the series. The only flaws with it were its color scheme and its name. It should have been called Primal Super Saiyan, as others have mentioned.

My main gripe with GT is that it's boring, but it has some really (poorly executed) good ideas, with its worst being Kid Goku and Super 17 (the latter which lasts for only a few episodes). On the other hand, modern DBZ specials/movies are riddled with terrible ideas, but are more entertaining to sit through. =P
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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Scott » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:52 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
NeoKING wrote:I dunno about anyone else, but I think New Akira's awesome. He doesn't have to deal with deadlines or anything like that, so he's creativity is being fleshed out more than ever before. Sure, New Akira throws away his old ideas by having things like SSJ Vegeta "surpassing Goku" and SSJ God being the new thing, but his characters like Beerus and Whis are really well-developed. He also does a great job of expanding the DB universe which we've come to known for 10+ years now.

What do you guys think about New Akira?
I think I miss the old Toriyama.

Thus far, we have:
- Tarble, Vegeta's wimpy brother who's married to a chibi alien thing (I know Toriyama did not make him, but he was still referenced in BoG).
- Rage Boosts are now a thing, so Gohan's hidden power was never exclusive.
- SSJs becoming stronger than SSJ3s by getting angry.
- No more SSJ2s and SSJ3s.
- Gohan lost his mystic state, and is now a PoS character. This is one of the reasons people hated GT too, so... go figure.
- Lame new transformations. One achieved through friendship that makes the user look weaker, and another that replaces an iconic transformation and also makes it look weaker and uglier.
- Power inconsistencies, such as Piccolo being on par with a mook, Master Roshi holding his own against Freeza's men, and Gohan being one-shotted by first form Freeza.
- Villains with pitiful BP being able to catch up to gods in 4 months of off-screen training.
- A complete lack of any sense of threat due to two sets of dragon balls and a character who's not only the strongest in the universe, but can also reverse time.
- Terrible backstories that contradict decent ones that had already been established.
- One movie that is not really any better than a lot of what Toei gave us in the past, and another that seems to follow the exact same formula as those Toei movies people seem to hate on.
- Art nowhere near as good as the stuff he used to make when he was active.

Only good things that have come out of "New Akira" have been Jaco (sans Minus) and Beerus. "New Akira" is honestly not any better or worse than Toei, imo, but I miss Serious Ball Z (e.g. Bardock special, History of Trunks, Wrath of the Dragon, Cell Saga, etc) and I doubt we're ever getting that again with modern day Toriyama.
I agree with pretty much all of this.

I think the art style is poor now. I was reading the Manga for the new film the other day and that was pretty bad. The animation for films doesn't look that great either. The characters don't blend in with the backgrounds like they used to in my opinion.

I think Akira Toriyama has lost it. The time to continue with DBZ was soon after the series ended, not now. I'm just finding everything too ridiculous now, it's hard to enjoy it. Blue haired super saiyan god or whatever it is, Frieza's new look and other recent new character designs just remind me of the stuff the fans have been coming up with on Daviant Art.

The stories are stupid too. I can't get over the dragon bringing back Freeza in pieces, Frieza surviving in pieces and then Frieza going into the healing tank and returning to his first form again. It makes no sense at all. When Goku was bought back, he wasn't bought back with a massive hole in his stomach. And why is Frieza in his first form, where are his robotic parts ? Hearing about Gohan getting knocked out from this form of Frieza was another stupid thing.

Maybe it's because i am older now, but i just think that it's all too stupid now.

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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:11 pm

GeeRod wrote:I'm glad Toriyama is the one coming up with new stories and not TOEI because we all know what happen...
No. i'm not liking the Modern direction of the series anymore after this point and from what I hear about FnF it just sounds terrible. Hes just not even trying to write anything that can even be called a plot anymore let alone expanding anything new; just recycling and reinserting just to overlap what he doesn't remember. Also furthering this, why does the new material always have to start off at some sort of generic party template? I'm sorry but Toei is where the actual plots come in to the series, even if non canon they actually start things from fresh slates.

With modern DBZ, he just doesn't seem to feel invested enough or compelled at all to even write in line with prospective continuity in mind either. He just writes whatever comes to his mind without checking anything and what doesnt fit is what we have to debate over and some how accept. He's seriously going to ruin the franchise for me like this. yes thats how he always was, but its not working anymore. Old Toriyama at least had some consistency. The logic being applied to the new material is just sloppy.

Next movie: Cell will come back purple and its revealed 1 cell of his survived and regenerated into a God because of Beerus' DNA he had inside him he forgot about...

His style of writing would fit Pokemon a lot more to be honest where continuity and plot don't matter.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by NeoKING » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:13 pm

TripleRach wrote:
NeoKING wrote:I understand the whole respect aspect, I really do, but if it hasn't been made clear, I created this thread using the name "New Akira" with a brand of memetic humor behind it. In no way do I mean to intentionally disrespect the man.
I was tempted to change the "Akira" in the thread title to "Toriyama," but first I wanted to understand if there was some deeper meaning to this particular phrasing. Maybe I'm an old fuddy duddy who's not hip to all the memes, but I just don't get what "New Akira" does that "New Toriyama" can't.

I also just generally want to complain that I don't understand why so many people in the Dragon Ball fandom are prone to calling him "Akira" or "AT," when it's far more common to refer to creators/writers/directors by their surnames. Both for Japanese (Oda, Kishimoto, Tomino, Miyazaki, Miyamoto, Kojima...) and Western (Kirby, Whedon, Abrams, Rowling, Spielberg, Tolkien...) creators. It's not like there are tons of other famous Toriyamas out there; the only other one I can think of is Motomu Toriyama from the Final Fantasy franchise, but he's hardly on the same level, and I don't think anyone will confuse the two on a DB forum of all places. Meanwhile "Akira" is a very common given name, and also the title of a very well known anime movie (and the manga series that it was based on).
"New Akira" sounds shorter and not as much as a mouthful and monotone as *deep voice* Modern Toriyama, but to each his own.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by kei17 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:56 pm

I've seen many people complaining about nitpicky inconsistencies of Toriyama's recent ideas, but I don't give a fuck about inconsistencies for a shonen manga series, and I'm fine as long as the ideas are refreshing and plausible at least and don't clash with the main plot. I read/watch something else like pure literature or serious movies when I want consistency for fiction. It's a goddamn shonen manga series we're talking about. In short, fun > consistency to me.

Also, think about what we've got from Toei without Toriyama. I shudder to imagine how the new movies could have been if they'd been produced only by the Toei staff.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by NeoKING » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:01 pm

kei17 wrote:I've seen many people complaining about nitpicky inconsistencies of Toriyama's recent ideas, but I don't give a fuck about inconsistencies for a shonen manga series, and I'm fine as long as the ideas are refreshing and plausible at least and don't clash with the main plot. I read/watch something else like pure literature or serious movies when I want consistency for fiction. It's a goddamn shonen manga series we're talking about. In short, fun > consistency to me.

Also, think about what we've got from Toei without Toriyama. I shudder to imagine how the new movies could have been if they'd been produced only by the Toei staff.
How bad could they have been, really? At worst, GT-quality. At best, DBZ movie 1-3 quality. Really don't think I would've complained.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by kei17 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:14 pm

NeoKING wrote:
kei17 wrote:Also, think about what we've got from Toei without Toriyama. I shudder to imagine how the new movies could have been if they'd been produced only by the Toei staff.
How bad could they have been, really? At worst, GT-quality. At best, DBZ movie 1-3 quality. Really don't think I would've complained.
I should have added "after Z." But DBZ movie 1-3 could not have been amazing without Daisuke Nishio, the director, and he no more directs anime.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Saiga » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:56 pm

The last Z movie Toei made was leagues better than their previous efforts, and better that what I've seen from Toriyama recently. So I don't get this extreme aversion to Toei handling things.

GT was crap, but I don't think that's a good example unless we're talking about a potential series. Movie 13 actually felt like a movie, and if Toei continued along that line I think they'd produce some really good content.

The biggest problem they had was focusing too much on Goku (so nothing would be different) and their villains having no personality (which would be a shame).
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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Neon Z » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:05 pm

NeoKING wrote:- Rage Boosts are now a thing, so Gohan's hidden power was never exclusive.
I thought rage boosts were always there. Doesn't Kuririn get one after Yamcha dies? The difference is that the non-Gohan ones were much smaller and didn't really achieve anything, while Vegeta pulls a rage boost stronger than a SSJ form somehow.
When Goku was bought back, he wasn't bought back with a massive hole in his stomach.
In Goku's case (Saiyan Saga), his body was said to be fixed by Kamisama even before he was resurrected. They also mentioned the same thing regarding Chaotzu before going to train with Kaioh. After the Saiyan Saga, they even worry about the state of the bodies for resurrection. The manga was pretty inconsistent about that afterwards though - when Porunga brought back Kuririn, he said that fixing his body was a "special favor", but other times no such comments were made and we got people resurrected out of nothing with their bodies.

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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:20 pm

Neon Z wrote:
NeoKING wrote:- Rage Boosts are now a thing, so Gohan's hidden power was never exclusive.
I thought rage boosts were always there. Doesn't Kuririn get one after Yamcha dies? The difference is that the non-Gohan ones were much smaller and didn't really achieve anything, while Vegeta pulls a rage boost stronger than a SSJ form somehow.


Krillin vs Saibamen => He didn't unleash any hidden, latent power. He simply unsuppressed and unleashed everything he had against them because he was angry.

There were many moments when characters raged, but they didn't get any boosts from it like Gohan did. For instance, Vegeta vs Cell after the latter kills Trunks. Same thing with 20x kaioken Goku vs Frieza.
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:50 pm

As someone who is a bigger fan of most pre-DBZ arcs than DBZ itself, I for one am absolutely in love with the new direction Toriyama has taken with the series as a whole. The light-hearted tones and themes that originally had such strong emphasis in the story are just the sort of freshness the franchise needed after the excessive melodrama prevalent in most of DBZ (particularly the Cell saga), not to mention that Beerus is arguably the most interesting antagonist to brace DBZ. It hasn't been perfect, especially the kind of pointlessness laid out by Minus, but I'm definitely glad the author has his "groove" back so to speak. The notion that his involvement is going to continue in some way (maybe there'll be a film trilogy?) just makes me completely thrilled to be honest.

Super Saiyan God is also hands down my favorite Super Saiyan transformation thus far. There's a certain simple elegance about that form that really resonates with the "godlike" theme I felt Toriyama was trying to portray, and the fights themselves seem much more interesting to me than they were previously.

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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Mystic Tien » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:13 am

GeeRod wrote:
Because in the ''Dragon Ball logic'' is that a SSJ is someone with blonde spiky hair. If you want to go against what the author says and the series says, well that's your problem.

So you are basically saying that SSJ is logical, because author made it to look like that, but SSJ4 isn't logical, while author (designer for GT) made it look like that. A bit of hypocrisy right here =/
GeeRod wrote:If you want to go against what the author says and the series says, well that's your problem
I can say the same about all your problems with GT.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by Dyno » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:17 pm

kei17 wrote:It's a goddamn shonen manga series we're talking about. In short, fun > consistency to me.
Exactly, to you. You can't call other "kids" just because they are entitled to have their own opinions whether is negative or not, and it doesn't matter that opinion came before watching the movie. If you see that "fun is better than consistency" that's okay, but your vision is not the right, and not everyone will agree and follow with that. In short, to me: fun = consistency.
kei17 wrote:Also, think about what we've got from Toei without Toriyama. I shudder to imagine how the new movies could have been if they'd been produced only by the Toei staff.
This movie pretty much is one of the Toei's ones, only probably better in action pack. But overall, it is a Toei's movie.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by fexus » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:34 pm

I really like the new Toriyama. His ideas are now not to constricted as it used to be. BoG was great. We got Beerus, Whis and SSJ God. Minus was good too. Introducing us to Goku's family a bit more and explaining the reason Goku was sent out rather than having it as just a big coincidence. We also got introduce to the society of the Saiyans a bit more with Minus when it shows what happen to Saiyans like Gine. RoF also looks like it is going to be a great movie showing of the interactions between character that we can only get when Toriyama makes it.
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:35 pm

#NewRules?

What new rules? Unless you mean new things are cool? I've not heard "That rules" since 1st grade.

I don't see how Modern Toriyama is different than old school Toriyama. He just doesn't have fitler. Which can be good or bad. Good being Jaco(Not counting Minus) and bad being BoG. With a the average being his interviews. Can be hit or miss. Hopefully when I see FnF I won't get a bad taste in my mouth again.

Though the Toei movies wasn't bad. They're just too short. Look at the longer movies like PTP, Broly 1st movie, and Dragon Fist Explode! If Goku can't who will!?. They were awesome movies that blows anything new out of the water. Especially Broly's first movie which had everything DB related. Gags, interaction, comedy, and action! The 13 movie was great too. I liked all the movies except movie 4.
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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by fexus » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:46 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
GeeRod wrote:
Because in the ''Dragon Ball logic'' is that a SSJ is someone with blonde spiky hair. If you want to go against what the author says and the series says, well that's your problem.

So you are basically saying that SSJ is logical, because author made it to look like that, but SSJ4 isn't logical, while author (designer for GT) made it look like that. A bit of hypocrisy right here =/
Might as well criticize everything. Why does the Saiyans have tail? How can they transform and suddenly get a powerboost? Where does Popo come from? How come some half saiyans don't have tail? How can Namekians make wish granting orbs anyway?
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Re: #NewRules According to New Akira

Post by Mystic Tien » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:47 pm

fexus wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
GeeRod wrote:
Because in the ''Dragon Ball logic'' is that a SSJ is someone with blonde spiky hair. If you want to go against what the author says and the series says, well that's your problem.

So you are basically saying that SSJ is logical, because author made it to look like that, but SSJ4 isn't logical, while author (designer for GT) made it look like that. A bit of hypocrisy right here =/
Might as well criticize everything. Why does the Saiyans have tail? How can they transform and suddenly get a powerboost? Where does Popo come from? How come some half saiyans don't have tail? How can Namekians make wish granting orbs anyway?
That's the point. Saiyans were revealed to be monkey-like aliens and to have Oozaru transformations. What exactly does SSJ have in common with it?
How come some half saiyans don't have tail?
Because Toriyama forgot. This one I know for sure. Just like he forgot about Launch.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:50 pm

How come some half saiyans don't have tail?
Thats actually basic science genetics. Gohan got the tail trait. Goten-Trunks got the regular human butt trait.
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Re: #NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:56 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
How come some half saiyans don't have tail?
Thats actually basic science genetics. Gohan got the tail trait. Goten-Trunks got the regular human butt trait.
Which makes very little sense in the context Toriyama painted with the tails being a "recessive gene".
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