What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Payne222 » Mon May 11, 2015 6:14 pm

Kaboom wrote:Yeah, that's why I intentionally used the word "evil" instead of "demon" or "devil."

As for the Pokémon example... I don't think American kids would have been flabbergasted by the term "rice balls."
I would've thought "Why are they eating balls of rice?" It's not a normal thing for most Americans, let alone American kids, to know about. It's just localization. Cater to the masses, not the weeaboos.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Ajay » Mon May 11, 2015 6:17 pm

Thouser wrote:<huge, extremely informative post>
Thanks for this. Sorry for misinterpreting your initial post, I thought it came across a little blunt, but I was clearly mistaken. In fact, given the contents of your post, perhaps I deserved it for not investigating his claims further.

But what you said is interesting and has definitely made me reconsider my position on a few things. I've seen folks accuse Derek of twisting some of his articles to fit his notions about Daoism, but I'd never ever seen it broken down like that. Though I don't speak Japanese anywhere near well enough to refute either of you on any real level, I can at least validate a lot of what you posted.

Honestly, I feel a little silly for accepting his words at face value. They're extremely interesting articles, but if they're far from accurate, I guess I'll take them with a pinch of salt from now on. Of course, I understand Toriyama is the furthest thing from an author who cares much about extremely detailed philosophies, so I do appreciate none of this was likely in his mind. I just know he likes to play around with language, so I guess I was a little overly hopeful in this case.

Is his Genki Dama article similarly inaccurate? I'm quite fascinated now, as this was the piece that led me on a little tour of his site today. I'd never really explored it in the past.

I know Derek browses these forums, so I apologise if he comes across this and is hurt by any of my comments. I just despise being wrong or misinformed, so I'd like to get some confirmation.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 11, 2015 6:22 pm

Really, I just go by the rule of cool. Some attack names sound better in their native Japanese than the literal translation. Sometimes an English approximation that fits the mouth flaps sounds best, too. It really depends on what attack and name it is.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by MarCas92 » Mon May 11, 2015 6:31 pm

Payne222 wrote: I would've thought "Why are they eating balls of rice?" It's not a normal thing for most Americans, let alone American kids, to know about. It's just localization. Cater to the masses, not the weeaboos.
I personally can't stand this type of mentality. I think that exposure to other cultures is SUPER important, especially in media aimed at younger audiences. If I saw a food that I didn't know about in a show I liked, I'd be interested in learning what it was. What you just said makes it seem like we need to keep cultural things that are different from ours out of entertainment media.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon May 11, 2015 6:40 pm

Payne222 wrote:I would've thought "Why are they eating balls of rice?" It's not a normal thing for most Americans, let alone American kids, to know about. It's just localization. Cater to the masses, not the weeaboos.
First off, don't use that pathetic excuse for a non-word, please. Also, I hate this mentality that we can only expose children to things they've already been exposed to. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and is entirely paradoxical. Nothing is a "normal" thing for anybody until they experience it. And children, who don't have a lot of experience, period, are constantly inundated by things they've never seen before. That's how they learn things. It honestly makes me wonder if the people espousing this view or the people choosing to change things because of that even remember being kids. I remember always seeing things on TV I'd never seen before, hearing words I wasn't familiar with. And guess what? I didn't go crazy or refuse to watch it. Most of the time, I figured it out roughly just by the context. Or I'd ask my mom what that meant. Or I'd just roll with it. Kids have a really high tolerance for just accepting things. Yeah, if I saw it as a kid, I'd probably think, "Why are they eating balls of rice?" too. And then I'd get over it. And I'd surmise that apparently people somewhere or even just people on this show eat balls of rice. The message is obviously simple and still the same: he likes to eat those things a lot. Changing them to doughnuts accomplishes nothing to make them more relatable.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Kid Buu » Mon May 11, 2015 6:45 pm

I use the dub terms for the most part, since it is just easier for people to recognize.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by One_Instance » Mon May 11, 2015 6:52 pm

Now that I think about, I use dub terms occasionally when I'm on a website like Youtube, that way everyone reading it is more likely to be on the same page.

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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by B » Mon May 11, 2015 6:58 pm

In an ideal world we could accurately translate all the attacks and they wouldn't sound like they belong in old, poorly dubbed kung-fu flicks... but maybe they're supposed to? I don't know. I feel the same way with "Kaioshin." I'm with the handful of other people that sounded off on not liking "exotic gibberish." It feels slightly disrespectful because "Makankosappo" actually means something.

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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by One_Instance » Mon May 11, 2015 7:05 pm

It's really no surprise that they changed the names the way they did, though. I mean, they seriously felt the need to censor Japanese writing in the Ocean dub, which is what the Funimation dub is based off of.

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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Thouser » Mon May 11, 2015 7:19 pm

Payne222 wrote: I would've thought "Why are they eating balls of rice?" It's not a normal thing for most Americans, let alone American kids, to know about. It's just localization. Cater to the masses, not the weeaboos.
I was an American kid who watched Pokemon, and knew basically nothing about Japan. I could tell they weren't donuts. The first time I heard Brock call an onigiri a "jelly donut," I was confused as hell, and a lot more confused than I would have been if they had just called them "rice balls."
AjayLikesGaming wrote: Is his Genki Dama article similarly inaccurate? I'm quite fascinated now, as this was the piece that led me on a little tour of his site today. I'd never really explored it in the past.
Okay, here we go:
the dao of dragon ball wrote: Genki (元気) means Origin Ki and is the transliterated term for the Chinese YuanQi (元気).
Okay, the "gen" in genki. The character 元 does refer to something that is "primary," or the foundation or basis of something. For example, 元日 (ganjitsu, primary day) means the first day of the year, or "new year's day." 元首 (genshu, primary head/chief) refers to a head of state.

気 has several meanings. In regular conversation it usually has to do with someone's mood (for example, 本気 (honki, true ki), which means seriousness). In Chinese philosophy, 気 refers to your life-force.

So yes, genki can mean the primary life-force.

Genki is usually used to mean that somebody is in good health or energetic/full of energy. However, since the Genki Dama involves taking people's life energy, obviously the more supernatural meaning is intended.
the dao of dragon ball wrote: Dama (玉) is the character representing the connection between Heaven (一) and Earth (土). The single drop stroke on the bottom right of Dama implies “Heaven’s Essence [on] Earth.”
This is actually a garbled version of the origin of the character 王 (ō, king), not 玉 (tama, ball).

In Chinese, 玉 (yu) means "jade," and 球 (qiu) means ball. (Qiu is the character in all the names for the dragon balls like si xing qiu (四星球, four star ball).)

In Japanese, 玉 means ball. Why it's used in the name Genki Dama probably has to do with the attack's spherical shape, not anything about a connection between heaven and earth.
the dao of dragon ball wrote: Thus the Genki Dama (元気玉) is a “Ball of Origin Ki” comprised of the “Essence of Heaven and Earth.”
Again, the "origin ki" thing is right, but this stuff about the "essence of heaven and earth" is really reaching.

As for all the other stuff in the article about falun gong, etc.: the poses that the characters perform to summon their ki attacks such as the Genki Dama and Kamehame Ha are definitely derived from those kind of qi gong (氣功, qi cultivation) poses.

In fact, the term qi gong actually appears in Dragon Ball, in Tenshinhan's attack Kikōhō (気功砲, Ki Cultivation Gun/Cannon). Kikō (気功) is the Japanese equivalent of qi gong (氣功). In the Viz translation of the manga I think they translated Kikōhō as "Ch'i-Kung Cannon." Ch'i-Kung is an alternate romanization of qi gong, using the older Wade-Giles romanization instead of Pinyin romanization.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Ajay » Mon May 11, 2015 7:40 pm

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for breaking that down, Thouser. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that for me.

I guess that puts me in a bit of a strange situation regarding Derek's work. I don't know what's accurate and what's not!

I took the time to read these two earlier, and now I'm extremely hesitant to repeat any information I've gathered from them.

- “Ossu! Ora Goku!” Explained
- The Kiai in Dragon Ball

Although both of them features aspects I know are true, there's a lot in there that I'm unfamiliar with, and now very unsure of.

I don't expect you to pick through them, I guess I'm just a little miffed that a site I thought drew theories from facts is actually quite shaky.

Oh well, back to gathering all information from this website! Thanks again for your time.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon May 11, 2015 7:49 pm

I massively prefer the original attack names. It's interesting, because while I know the main reason for their adaptation was so that they'd be understandable, if they were also adapted for the purpose of "sounding cooler," then FUNimation missed the mark there. I think the Japanese names are way cooler-sounding.

Although...

"Makankosappo" is not always the easiest thing to say in casual conversation (which is why I get a kick out of the running gag that TFS has where everybody keeps mispronouncing the name). I don't think "Special Beam Cannon" sounds cooler (it sounds out of place, almost like a low-level Limit Break you'd find in a Final Fantasy game), but it's easier to say in casual conversation. FUNimation shouldn't have changed it, but if they really felt the need to, they could have gone with something that was both simple and cool-sounding. The German dub went with "Hell Spiral"* as I recall.

*Not that that would have worked with North American TV broadcast standards, of course.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by LuckyCat » Mon May 11, 2015 8:17 pm

I prefer the Japanese but I'm a bit of a pragmatist when it comes to translations. I'd say they should leave the existing English names for moves for DBZ, and going forward in Dragon Ball Super they could use Japanese for new techniques. There could still be exceptions when the words are too difficult (i.e. Makankosappo)
Thouser wrote:Actually, the way it's written is just "Kamehame Wave" (かめはめ波). "Turtle Wave Beam" would be something like Kame Ha Kōsen (亀波光線).

The "kame" could obviously be assumed to be "turtle" (亀), but the "hame" is just gibberish.
If we're going to pick at this, let's go all the way! Kamehameha is borrowed from a Hawaiian name and turned into a pun which explains its odd lettering. (citation). Still, I think the popular literal translation of "Turtle Devastation Wave" comes from pulling apart the punny name and reading it as 亀破目波.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Herms » Mon May 11, 2015 9:20 pm

Something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far is that a good chunk of the attack names are already in English anyway, even over in the Japanese version. Big Bang Attack, Final Flash, Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack (OK, "Kamikaze" is Japanese, but it's commonly used in English), Super Galactic Doughnuts, Eraser Gun, video game attack names like Death Beam, Double Sunday, Spirit Sword, etc, etc. It'd be one thing if all the attack names in the Japanese version where in Japanese. Then it would make perfect sense to translate them all into English for the English version. But in the Japanese version, half the attack names are in Japanese and half are in English, so why should the English version have all the attack names in English? Toriyama's even said (in his Daizenshuu 2 interview and a few other places) that he takes character personality into consideration when deciding what language to name attacks in. So Vegeta's attacks are mainly in English, while Piccolo's are in kanji because he's supposed to be "classy".
Kakarot88 wrote:All that being said, while I do love Steve Simmons work, I think it was incredibly odd he kept Rei Gun in Yu Yu Hakusho rather than translating it as spirit gun but I guess for consistency sake that makes sense...but that's where consistency should not trump an easy direct translation.
There's actually more to "Rei Gan" than meets the eye. The "gan" bit is obviously referencing the English word "gun", but it's written with 丸, the kanji for "round" or "pill". On the flipside, 霊/rei is Japanese for "spirit", but also sounds like the English word "ray". So going by the kanji meaning, 霊 丸 /Rei Gan basically means "Spirit Ball", but the joke is that it sounds like the English word "raygun".
Payne222 wrote:You have to take into context the time that it was being translated and being brought to the American public. A foreign cartoon talking about the Devil and death? Many parents would be apprehensive to let their children jump right into that.
Funi's dub of Yu Yu Hakusho tossed around the word "demon" and "death" all the time and it didn't seem to cause much of a fuss. I think it's easy to exaggerate the need to dance around those concepts. I don't doubt that some parents feel uneasy letting their kids watch that stuff, but many others don't (mine certainly didn't).
LuckyCat wrote:If we're going to pick at this, let's go all the way! Kamehameha is borrowed from a Hawaiian name and turned into a pun which explains its odd lettering. (citation).
In fact, the name "Kamehameha" means "the lonely one" in Hawaiian. "Kamehame" is also the name of a tree, but this seems to be unrelated (per Hawaii Place Names by John R.K. Clark, a book which is coming in very handy for me these days).
Still, I think the popular literal translation of "Turtle Devastation Wave" comes from pulling apart the punny name and reading it as 亀破目波.
That is indeed where people get it from (though it'd be 亀破滅波/Kame Hametsu Ha; 破目/hame means a panel), but it's an interpretation that seems mostly prevalent among Western fans. It's not backed up by anything in the series itself or any secondary source, and the idea seems largely unknown to Japanese fans, amusingly enough.

In Chinese translations of the series, where they've got no choice but to write the name out in Chinese characters, they opt for 龟派气功/Guī Pài Qìgōng, "Turtle School Qigong" (less literally, "Turtle School Ki Blast"...or as some bootleg DVDs have it, "Roshi Cannon").
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Thouser » Mon May 11, 2015 9:23 pm

LuckyCat wrote:If we're going to pick at this, let's go all the way! Kamehameha is borrowed from a Hawaiian name and turned into a pun which explains its odd lettering. (citation). Still, I think the popular literal translation of "Turtle Devastation Wave" comes from pulling apart the punny name and reading it as 亀破目波.
The name is a reference to the king, but that doesn't explain most of the attack's name being in hiragana. King Kamehameha's name is written in katakana, like all foreign words/names in Japanese (so カメハメハ instead of かめはめ波).

I think the attack is written in kana so Gokū can draw it out as he says it ("Ka.....me...."), which wouldn't be possible if kame was written with the kanji for turtle, since that's two syllables in one character.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Kakarot88 » Mon May 11, 2015 10:15 pm

Herms wrote:
Kakarot88 wrote:All that being said, while I do love Steve Simmons work, I think it was incredibly odd he kept Rei Gun in Yu Yu Hakusho rather than translating it as spirit gun but I guess for consistency sake that makes sense...but that's where consistency should not trump an easy direct translation.
There's actually more to "Rei Gan" than meets the eye. The "gan" bit is obviously referencing the English word "gun", but it's written with 丸, the kanji for "round" or "pill". On the flipside, 霊/rei is Japanese for "spirit", but also sounds like the English word "ray". So going by the kanji meaning, 霊 丸 /Rei Gan basically means "Spirit Ball", but the joke is that it sounds like the English word "raygun".
Mind blown! I was unaware there was more to the "Rei Gan" pun, thanks for the info!
See how you explained that, that's what I would want the first time an attack is used if any neat information like that is available.


Example:
Kame-sennin using the Kamehameha for the first time:
"Ka-me-ha-me-HA!"
[Kame = turtle, as in Kame-sennin]


Example: Yusuke uses the Rei Gan for the first time:
"Rei Gan!"
[rei = "spirit" and gan = "ball" together Rei Gan = "Spirit Ball", which sounds like the English word "raygun"; or alternatively "Spirit Gun"
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Payne222 » Tue May 12, 2015 2:29 am

Herms, mine didn't either, and as a parent now I don't, I let my 6 year old watch the anime on [adult swim] .But I'm just applying the fact that anime was getting ready to boom here, they didn't wanna necessarily ruffle and feathers when they're trying to bring a whole new entertainment to this country. Also, I remover Yu Yu Hakusho being a bit more edgy and aimed for older American anime fans at the time.

As for the localization, I'm not saying we should localize everything, but if you look at the time period of stuff like Pokemon, DBZ, etc it makes sense why they did it to try and broaden the appeal. Nowdays anime and manga are more of a mainstream entertainment with Americans younger than 30 so the localizations and what not aren't really needed as the exposure to more Japanese culture via those two has become more widespread.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 12, 2015 2:30 am

I grew up with the Latin dub.

Sub names for me.

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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by Metalwario64 » Tue May 12, 2015 2:58 am

Payne222 wrote:I would've thought "Why are they eating balls of rice?" It's not a normal thing for most Americans, let alone American kids, to know about. It's just localization. Cater to the masses, not the weeaboos.
If you're going to pull that card, then you're a "weaboo" for liking a Japanese series.
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Re: What do you prefer for the attack names in sub/dubs?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 12, 2015 8:51 am

Metalwario64 wrote:
Payne222 wrote:I would've thought "Why are they eating balls of rice?" It's not a normal thing for most Americans, let alone American kids, to know about. It's just localization. Cater to the masses, not the weeaboos.
If you're going to pull that card, then you're a "weaboo" for liking a Japanese series.
For reals. Let's not pretend you didn't specifically sign up for a huge website and forum dedicated to a Japanese children's cartoon. Tossing out "weaboo" here as a pejorative is hysterical. Like, seriously laughing out loud kind of thing going on here.
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