Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat May 16, 2015 8:51 am

rereboy wrote:
Sayo-chan wrote: How is that ironic? So coming to the conclusion someone is better than someone else both morally and as a fighter is becoming biased?
Bias:
prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
I would love to see where my supposed prejudice is making the arguments that support my views unfair.
You never met Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan, you just know some details that global media has presented to you, and you yet you seem to be sure of who is the better man personally and professionally, while pointing out bias regarding Toriyama. I would say that it is ironic.
You don't have to meet or know someone 'personally' to come to rational conclusions. This argument is so tried and cliched that I'm sick of refuting it. It's the equivalent of telling someone they're biased because they called Ted Bundy a horrendous human being, why? They didn't know the guy personally. Gimme a break. Extremist example? Sure, but reduction to absurdity gets the job done. You're also making an assumption about my certainty of knowledge, based purely on conjecture, which is irrational and discredits you. There's nothing that's showed prejudice or anything unfair (which is ironic considering Chan is incredibly bigoted).

Let me start out by saying I have nothing but respect for his cinematic achievements, but as a person, I find him to be nothing short of a scumbag. In China Jackie is met with mixed views, mainly because you don't hear about many of his exploitations in western media. People in HK absolutely loath him, and with good reason. He consistently makes an ass of himself on talk shows, insulting America in favor of the CPC, using the country as an example for why people's civil liberties should be violated and taken away. He's an active supporter of laws that suppress humanitarian efforts, leaving political activists in indefinite trials. His political commentary can be boiled down to: “Fuck you, I'm famous!” which is why even in the mainland he's been getting shit. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/world ... .html?_r=0 Peoople in HK are actively fighting against Beijin's destruction of people's civil rights, but Jackie? No, it's a good thing. To give some perspective, this would be like if Tim Allen were outwardly supporting the ANP and shouting bigotry at every opportunity, but people in the east being blinded by his movies.

Jackie's own words surmise this very well: “...We Chinese need to be controlled. If we are not being controlled, we'll just do what we want.” - Baoao Forum for Asia, 2009.

I can not emphasize enough how unpopular Chan is becoming day by day, solely due to how he views and treats people in his country:
Image

Do you see celebrities such as Donnie Yen or Chow Yun Fat acting like Jackie? No. In fact, Chow was banned from China for going out to support protesters, people standing up against the ideologies Jackie tries to force onto people. What did Chow say when he was banned? “I'll just make less money.”
http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/28/actor ... -ban-by-ch

His political views become even more hypocritical considering he made most of his living through HK when it operated under British rule, and later in the US, the country he demonizes as a the poster child for why the CPC is correct in its political beliefs. Accordingly Chinese natives shouldn't criticize their government, especially not in front of “outsiders”. Taiwan? According to Jackie, “The biggest joke in the world.”

Jackie's pretty big on family right? Says to treasure them right? Nope. After having an affair with Elaine Ng, he produced an illegitimate daughter in 1999: Etta. He's made a volley of excuses for why he won't support her, but they all translate to one thing: deadbeat dad. He won't take responsibility for his mistakes, not that she's a mistake, but clearly that's how he sees her, which is unfortunate. His affair with Elaine wasn't the only time he hurt his family either. So what about his son Jaycee? Well, Chan said he wishes Will Smith's kid was his son instead. It doesn't take an in-depth understanding of quantum electrodynamics to understand that if treating your son like shit pushes him away, but no, Jackie continually scolds his son in media outlets, more or less saying what a dishonorable degenerate he is. It wasn't until March this year, when his son bent over backwards for him after coming out of prison that he accepted him. Jesus. This is the same guy that lied to his wife to show up to casting, filmed her, and put her in his movie despite her wishes not to be involved. Oh, and he supports the death penalty for drug related charges: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-32620313

The great thing about Bruce was, he was the exact opposite. He was about the freedom of expressing the human body. The guy broke down racial barriers during the 60s, genuinely cared for people's right to learn and study martial arts, and never wanted to hurt 'innocent' people. Why was it Bruce rushed to Jackie's aid during filming of Enter the Dragon, when he thought he injured him (despite the fact he didn't)? Why is it Jackie Chan, post-Shanghai Knights, has purposefully gotten his stuntmen injured and not given a shit about their safety? Why is it so many HK directors won't work with him? In HK there's an occasional tabloid story about Bruce's death, but it passes over relatively quickly, namely due to the fact the guy's seen as a bit of a relic. He's similar to Elvis in this light, being that the younger generation doesn't think too much of him, but the older generations view him as a great treasure (China's pride to quote an old man).

If I had to surmise Jackie's character, I'd let him do it for me:
“Sometimes I really like to see some countries have a disaster coming, or either a big tsunami, or either a big earthquake.” - TVBS, 2013
Last edited by Sayo-chan on Sat May 16, 2015 8:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat May 16, 2015 8:53 am

Personally I find it kind of off-putting when people act like they're allowed to dictate what others have the right to be offended by.
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by rereboy » Sat May 16, 2015 9:16 am

Sayo-chan wrote: You don't have to meet or know someone 'personally' to come to rational conclusions. This argument is so tried and cliched that I'm sick of refuting it. It's the equivalent of telling someone they're biased because they called Ted Bundy a horrendous human being, why? They didn't know the guy personally. Gimme a break. Extremist example? Sure, but reduction to absurdity gets the job done. You're also making an assumption about my certainty of knowledge, based purely on conjecture, which is irrational and discredits you. There's nothing that's showed prejudice or anything unfair (which is ironic considering Chan is incredibly bigoted).

Let me start out by saying I have nothing but respect for his cinematic achievements, but as a person, I find him to be nothing short of a scumbag. In China Jackie is met with mixed views, mainly because you don't hear about many of his exploitations in western media. People in HK absolutely loath him, and with good reason. He consistently makes an ass of himself on talk shows, insulting America in favor of the CPC, using the country as an example for why people's civil liberties should be violated and taken away. He's an active supporter of laws that suppress humanitarian efforts, leaving political activists in indefinite trials. His political commentary can be boiled down to: “Fuck you, I'm famous!” which is why even in the mainland he's been getting shit. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/world ... .html?_r=0 Peoople in HK are actively fighting against Beijin's destruction of people's civil rights, but Jackie? No, it's a good thing. To give some perspective, this would be like if Tim Allen were outwardly supporting the ANP and shouting bigotry at every opportunity, but people in the east being blinded by his movies.

Jackie's own words surmise this very well: “...We Chinese need to be controlled. If we are not being controlled, we'll just do what we want.” - Baoao Forum for Asia, 2009.

I can not emphasize enough how unpopular Chan is becoming day by day, solely due to how he views and treats people in his country:
Image

Do you see celebrities such as Donnie Yen or Chow Yun Fat acting like Jackie? No. In fact, Chow was banned from China for going out to support protesters, people standing up against the ideologies Jackie tries to force onto people. What did Chow say when he was banned? “I'll just make less money.”
http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/28/actor ... -ban-by-ch

His political views become even more hypocritical considering he made most of his living through HK when it operated under British rule, and later in the US, the country he demonizes as a the poster child for why the CPC is correct in its political beliefs. Accordingly Chinese natives shouldn't criticize their government, especially not in front of “outsiders”. Taiwan? According to Jackie, “The biggest joke in the world.”

Jackie's pretty big on family right? Says to treasure them right? Nope. After having an affair with Elaine Ng, he produced an illegitimate daughter in 1999: Etta. He's made a volley of excuses for why he won't support her, but they all translate to one thing: deadbeat dad. He won't take responsibility for his mistakes, not that she's a mistake, but clearly that's how he sees her, which is unfortunate. His affair with Elaine wasn't the only time he hurt his family either. So what about his son Jaycee? Well, Chan said he wishes Will Smith's kid was his son instead. It doesn't take an in-depth understanding of quantum electrodynamics to understand that if treating your son like shit pushes him away, but no, Jackie continually scolds his son in media outlets, more or less saying what a dishonorable degenerate he is. It wasn't until March this year, when his son bent over backwards for him after coming out of prison that he accepted him. Jesus. This is the same guy that lied to his wife to show up to casting, filmed her, and put her in his movie despite her wishes not to be involved. Oh, and he supports the death penalty for drug related charges: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-32620313

The great thing about Bruce was, he was the exact opposite. He was about the freedom of expressing the human body. The guy broke down racial barriers during the 60s, genuinely cared for people's right to learn and study martial arts, and never wanted to hurt 'innocent' people. Why was it Bruce rushed to Jackie's aid during filming of Enter the Dragon, when he thought he injured him (despite the fact he didn't)? Why is it Jackie Chan, post-Shanghai Knights, has purposefully gotten his stuntmen injured and not given a shit about their safety? Why is it so many HK directors won't work with him? In HK there's an occasional tabloid story about Bruce's death, but it passes over relatively quickly, namely due to the fact the guy's seen as a bit of a relic. He's similar to Elvis in this light, being that the younger generation doesn't think too much of him, but the older generations view him as a great treasure (China's pride to quote an old man).

If I had to surmise Jackie's character, I'd let him do it for me:
“Sometimes I really like to see some countries have a disaster coming, or either a big tsunami, or either a big earthquake.” - TVBS, 2013
You can have whatever opinion you want based on the limited exposure you have regarding Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee.

But pretending that what you think is so much better than whatever Toriyama might think by calling Toriyama's opinion "biased", especially with your limited exposure, is just ironic.

Also, stating extreme and exceptional examples like Ted Bundy which are really incomparable to what is being discussed doesn't do you any favors, quite the contrary.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat May 16, 2015 9:29 am

rereboy wrote:You can have whatever opinion you want based on the limited exposure you have regarding Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee.

But pretending that what you think is so much better than whatever Toriyama might think by calling Toriyama's opinion "biased" is just ironic.
Limited? That was just off the top of my head. There's been no insight whatsoever on Toriyama's preference of Chan beyond his work in cinema. You again, haven't refuted what I've stated. Do you find Ted Bundy to be morally acceptable or reprehensible? Your exposure is oh so clearly limited, so you couldn't possibly come to a conclusion on whether or not he's a better person than say, Jim Carey? Gimme a break. If per se, Toriyama's bias stems from his cinematic achievements, which would be the only valid take on it, then how exactly is that so much better than my research, exactly? Especially when it's completely irrelevant by itself? Or did you conveniently gloss over that?
The Tori-bot wrote:
Sayo-chan wrote:How is that ironic? So coming to the conclusion someone is better than someone else both morally and as a fighter is becoming biased?
Well... pretty much. Maybe "bias" isn't the best word since it carries negative connotations, but in this context we're talking about opinion. In your opinion, Bruce Lee is better than Jackie Chan. That is not an objective fact. It is a popular opinion, to be sure, but opinion is what it is. Everyone has biases. Nothing wrong with thinking Lee is better than Chan. I was just pointing out that you were criticising Toriyama for being biased while doing the same thing in the very same sentence - especially when we have no proof that Toriyama even feels that way anyway.
Not all opinions are equal. I would say it's a fact Lee was a better martial artist and someone that didn't support repressive regimes. Like Monkey King Vegeta pointed out, a lot of manga have a gripe with the Chinese. It's perfectly reasonable to assume Dragon Ball isn't any different in this regard. Keeping that in mind, and also that he's a fan of Jackie, that in itself is unfair, despite how incredibly minor it is. That was what I was pointing out. It's still not ironic, because there's still nothing unfair or prejudice in my statements. If bias is the wrong word, then this entire shindig here is irrelevant.
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by rereboy » Sat May 16, 2015 9:57 am

Sayo-chan wrote:
Limited? That was just off the top of my head. There's been no insight whatsoever on Toriyama's preference of Chan beyond his work in cinema. You again, haven't refuted what I've stated. Do you find Ted Bundy to be morally acceptable or reprehensible? Your exposure is oh so clearly limited, so you couldn't possibly come to a conclusion on whether or not he's a better person that say, Jim Carey? Gimme a break. If per se, Toriyama's bias stems from his cinematic achievements, which would be the only valid take on it, then how exactly is that so much better than my research, exactly? Especially when it's completely irrelevant by itself? Or did you conveniently gloss over that?
Except my point was never to discuss Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee's character with you nor do I have any actual interest in doing so.

I pointed out to you that it was indeed ironic that you felt that your own opinion was so much better than Toriyama's that you call his "biased" while yours is not. Bias refers to a pre-conceived opinion regarding something specific. That pre-conception can result of lack of knowledge, or it can be an unbalanced way of thinking that persists in spite of knowledge. So, without direct knowledge of that something, there's always a certain degree of bias to someone's opinion. You may feel that your particular opinion and bias is very well justified and accurate, and it might even be very well justified and accurate, but to come off as so much better than someone else and call the other "biased" in the context of this discussion is indeed ironic.

Also, the particular discussion at hand continues to be incomparable to extreme and exceptional cases like Ted Bundy. Guys like that are historically proven to be serial killers and genocidal maniacs. Despite the natural bias due to the lack of direct knowledge in cases like that, no matter how bad you think someone's opinions are, it will always be incomparable to that. Citing extreme examples like that for the discussion at hand while forgetting that the more extreme and different a situation is, the more incomparable it is to a "normal" situation, is just an rhetoric stratagem that most can see through.
Last edited by rereboy on Sat May 16, 2015 10:07 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Doctor. » Sat May 16, 2015 9:57 am

How can Dragon Ball be biased against the Chinese when it's based off of their culture?
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat May 16, 2015 10:09 am

rereboy wrote: Except my point was never to discuss Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee's character with you nor do I have any actual interest in doing so.
Then why are you bothering? It seems like you're looking for an excuse to argue, seeing that I defined how I was using bias to clear up any discrepancies.
rereboy wrote:I pointed out to you that it was indeed ironic that you felt that your own opinion was so much better than Toriyama's that you call his "biased" while yours is not.
Because it isn't, and you've yet to prove this.
rereboy wrote:Bias refers to a pre-conceived opinion regarding something specific.
I laid down the most common definition of bias, and the context I was using it in. This is completely irrelevant.
rereboy wrote:Without direct knowledge of that something, there's always a certain degree of bias to someone's opinion because that's what it refers to, to an opinion that is formed beforehand, either due to lack of knowledge, or in spite of knowledge.


This has nothing to do with the definition I was using, that I cited. In order for something to be ironic, it would have to by convention, follow the same definition you're using. Do you understand why what you're saying is not logically valid?
rereboy wrote:You may feel that your particular opinion and bias is very well justified and accurate, and it might even be very well justified and accurate, but to come off as so much better than someone else and call the other "biased" in this context is indeed ironic.
Again, considering your argument is hinging on semantics, not at all. If I accepted and cited the definition you're using earlier, then yes, you would have a point. Words have different meanings for different contexts. You don't just get to pick and choose what something means after it's already been stated.
rereboy wrote:Also, the particular discussion at hand continues to be incomparable to extreme and exceptional cases like Ted Bundy. Guys like that are historically proven to be serial killers and genocidal maniacs.


And Jackie Chan has been proven to support repressive regimes and the restriction of people's civil rights/liberties.
rereboy wrote:No matter how bad you think someone's opinions are, it will always be incomparable to that.


I don't think you understand how reduction to absurdity works.
rereboy wrote:Citing extreme examples like that for the discussion at hand while forgetting that the more extreme and different a situation is, the more incomparable it is to a "normal" situation, is just an rhetoric stratagem that most can see through.
You're claiming it's incomparable without actually showing evidence it is. You refuse to answer a very simple question, which countered your sentiment about exposure, exposing it as being completely fruitless. Ala, a morally reprehensible act is still a morally reprehensible act, regardless of exposure.
Doctor. wrote:How can Dragon Ball be biased towards the Chinese when it's based off of their culture?
I think you mean biased against? I wasn't stating it definitely did or anything, I was stating I wouldn't put it past it. Ranma does something similar.
Last edited by Sayo-chan on Sat May 16, 2015 10:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat May 16, 2015 10:10 am

Doctor. wrote:How can Dragon Ball be biased towards the Chinese when it's based off of their culture?
To be biased towards something is to be in favor of it.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by rereboy » Sat May 16, 2015 10:20 am

Sayo-chan wrote:...
You want "evidence" and you state "not proven" at any sentence any one else makes? Hm, ok... Sure, buddy, whatever you say... Here's what I can give you:

preconception
/ˌpriːkənˈsɛpʃən/
noun
1.
an idea or opinion formed beforehand
2.
a bias; prejudice

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preconception


bias
[bahy-uh s]
Synonyms
1. predisposition, preconception, predilection, partiality, proclivity; bent, leaning

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bias

Bias and preconception are, for the most past, interchangeable. But whatever, this discussion is pointless. So, whatever, Toriyama is biased and you are not at all, it's not ironic at all, and so on.
Last edited by rereboy on Sat May 16, 2015 10:28 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Doctor. » Sat May 16, 2015 10:28 am

Sayo-chan wrote:I think you mean biased against?
Yes, you're correct, apologies. Clear mistake on my part.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat May 16, 2015 10:30 am

Akumaito Beam wrote:
kei17 wrote: Yeah, I'm occasionally offended by how the anime staff treat black people. Killa is nothing but just an ordinary fighter in the manga, but they added hoots by the audience when he's introduced by the announcer in contrast with Jewel, a white man, receiving cheers from women.
Did you ever see what the Funimation dub did to Killa? I have no idea what on God's green Earth they were thinking.
That scat-style voice they erroneously turned into gibberish is indeed insulting. Actually, a lot more of the racist elements that came from the show in my impression are more Funi-Dub exclusive. Listen to the voice they gave the tall boxer guy that fought Trunks. :? Though I did at least find #15's voice pretty funny.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Uub is more of Indian or middle eastern descent, like Namu.
On-topic: I feel Toriyama intentionally depicted Africans and black individuals this way. That's not to say he's racist, but he probably found humor in pictures he saw, which actually are racist. I think it's been established that the dude has a crude sense of humor. He knew damn well what he was doing, but it's not a big deal in Japan. That's what I believe, anyways
I'd like to mention that Mr. Popo is actually a Persian caricature, not a Black one. People think that Black face is supposed to only caricaturize just African people, but originally it was used on Indians and Dark East Asians as well or relatively anyone non European with darker skin, until it was politically reassociated. The onlyy reason Japan used it was because it was not socially offensive there from what I know. They don't even know what it actually is. They think its just make-up. Hence Ganguro. From what I read think they are just immitating the foreign image of what they thought were the "black people" impression they get from America. I don't personally think Toriyama is any different.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sat May 16, 2015 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by MCDaveG » Sat May 16, 2015 10:47 am

There is no racism in media unless some people claim to see some. Like Jinx in Pokémon.
I don't see anything racist in Dragon Ball only weird people trying to find something.

How come, that no one points out Lando Calrissian in Empire Strikes Back as a typical pimp stereotype?
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat May 16, 2015 11:02 am

rereboy wrote:...
I'm going to try and state my position in the best way I can so that it can be understood. When I used the word bias, I stated the definition to avoid any discrepancies, to avoid something like this. I'll requote for convenience sake:
prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
So this is my definition. Words have multiple definitions so that they're suited for different contexts. For example, 'ala' is a preposition meaning: "in the manner of". What you're doing here by changing the definition I'm using isn't different to changing the definition of ala to: "prepared with the ingredient of." So the denotation itself changes. Is Toriyama in favor of something, perhaps unfairly? It was a jokingly probably. So I fail to see how my statements could be seen as ironic. I understand text can make things like this difficult to convey, but I hope that clears it up. That's also why I was confused on why you chose not to indulge debating about Lee or Chan, since you would have to in order to assess whether or not my statements are fair.
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: Correct me if I'm misinformed but at face value that picture also gives me some pretty off-shoot implications on what the Chinese view as foreign and acceptable. Its annoying enough that Japan thinks that British is an ethnicity an that the only good Americans are all White.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "off shoot implications"? As far as Chinese social media goes, it's something of a sport to pick apart dishonorable, mainly hypocritical, celebrities and government officials. It also depends where in China you are. Many political activists end up in prison due to "causing trouble" laws, so it's important to pick your battles. You won't see as many protesters in Lijiang compared to HK, but it still happens from time to time: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/837113.shtml
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat May 16, 2015 11:09 am

jrdemr wrote:I'm mixed race and therefore, half of my entire family is black. I even have thick lips myself. And personally, I see no problem with any of these portrayals.

Like UpFromTheSkies said, the overwhelming majority of black people have thicker lips, so, it makes total sense to portray them with such lips. Just as it makes total sense to portray Asian people with a different kind of eyes and Indians with a darker skin tone. Doesn't mean any of that is racist.
Um...no. This is way off. Black people have bigger lips, but they're not absurdly bulging and bright red like you see with black Dragon Ball characters and Mr. Popo either. That depiction that you commonly see in Anime is based specifically on a racist caricature:

Image

I don't think the intention on Toriyama's part was racist, however. From what I've read on here, Japan is a bit crude when it comes to delicate racial issues like this and is usually unaware of the issue.
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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat May 16, 2015 11:22 am

Sayo-chan wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: Correct me if I'm misinformed but at face value that picture also gives me some pretty off-shoot implications on what the Chinese view as foreign and acceptable. Its annoying enough that Japan thinks that British is an ethnicity an that the only good Americans are all White.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "off shoot implications"? As far as Chinese social media goes, it's something of a sport to pick apart dishonorable, mainly hypocritical, celebrities and government officials. It also depends where in China you are. Many political activists end up in prison due to "causing trouble" laws, so it's important to pick your battles. You won't see as many protesters in Lijiang compared to HK, but it still happens from time to time: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/837113.shtml
Well "off-shoot" as in the implication I thought the picture had. I don't know what China thinks about Black foreigners, but the social history of seeing a picture of a white-american being welcomed with open arms is usually based on him being white and automatically being associated with good in qualities they respect, as opposed to who the individual is. Its part of that same post-colonial media bias, East Asian media still has. It looked like those types of dating pictures I mistook it for, where HK encourages White people to tour their country just to marry their women under the presumption that being white inherently means you are successful, as opposed to Asian/Black men who they deem as the opposite. I know that Japan and Korea is somewhat like that when they hire English Teachers regardless of their teaching quality.
MCDaveG wrote:There is no racism in media unless some people claim to see some.
I completely disagree. Racism is subjective in response to it, but Racist actions creating them isnt. People try harder to cover it up with excuses or deflect on it if they aren't the ones being attacked by it. The only difference here is that I do not believe Japanese media is as concious as the Westen media is perpetual with it. When racist images are reassociate for dismissal we get this:
its funny to everyone it doesnt directly mock. Its so normalized to just mock and appropriate insulting Black caricatures, you shouldn't wonder why there is so much self-hate.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sat May 16, 2015 11:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat May 16, 2015 11:28 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: Well "off-shoot" as in the implication I thought the picture had. I don't know what China thinks about Black foreigners, but the social history of seeing a picture of a white-american being welcomed with open arms is usually based on him being white and automatically being associated with good in qualities they respect, as opposed to who the individual is. Its part of that same post-colonial media bias, East Asian media still has. It looked like those types of dating pictures I mistook it for, where HK encourages White people to tour their country just to marry their women under the presumption that being white inherently means you are successful, as opposed to Asian/Black men who they deem as the opposite. I know that Japan and Korea is somewhat like that when they hire English Teachers regardless of their teaching quality.

While it's entirely possible that Snowden was chosen because he was white, I feel like his status takes precedence considering the nature of the picture. It could also be both, but there's not enough information to come to a solid conclusion.
Most Dragon Ball fans are incapable of making a logically sound argument.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat May 16, 2015 11:35 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
jrdemr wrote:I'm mixed race and therefore, half of my entire family is black. I even have thick lips myself. And personally, I see no problem with any of these portrayals.

Like UpFromTheSkies said, the overwhelming majority of black people have thicker lips, so, it makes total sense to portray them with such lips. Just as it makes total sense to portray Asian people with a different kind of eyes and Indians with a darker skin tone. Doesn't mean any of that is racist.
Um...no. This is way off. Black people have bigger lips, but they're not absurdly bulging and bright red like you see with black Dragon Ball characters and Mr. Popo either. That depiction that you commonly see in Anime is based specifically on a racist caricature.
I don't think the intention on Toriyama's part was racist, however. From what I've read on here, Japan is a bit crude when it comes to delicate racial issues like this and is usually unaware of the issue.
I'm divided on this. On the one hand, right now there is absolutely no reason for anyone in broadcast media to not understand that this is seen as offensive.
However, I know the usage of blackface in America and blackface in Korea (or elsewhere in Asia) is completely different, since the former used it as a systemic way of routinely denigrating Blacks in order to continually justify segregation and other institutionally practices while simultaneously keeping Blacks from the upper echelons of equal social fame and celebrity idoldom. To label a character as Black by those exaggerated attributes while the White characters are drawn to be very supermodel attractive in comparison is how racism is circulated with competing images of how those represented view themselves, vs how hollywood skewes how they should be seen in comparison to White characters.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sun May 17, 2015 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by dbboxkaifan » Sat May 16, 2015 3:33 pm

VegettoEX wrote:The sarcastic, dismissive, one-liner back-and-forths end immediately. Account strikes come next. Account strikes add up to temporary/permanent bans from the entirety of the website.

You don't want this.
So you're suppressing free-speech because one can't say how some people are towards this or that, really? That's disappointing.
MCDaveG wrote:There is no racism in media unless some people claim to see some.
There isn't? You sure about that?
FUNimation 2015 Releases I want:
- Kai 2.0 on Blu-ray

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Re: Toriyama's racial/ist character portrayals?

Post by Zenkai » Sat May 16, 2015 5:58 pm

Toriyama is a fan of both Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan movies. Check out this interview:
"With regards to how you got started on Dragon Ball, the motif was Kung-Fu movies, wasn’t it?

Toriyama:
Yes. To begin with, I saw Enter the Dragon starring Bruce Lee, back when I was a student; I remember I got so hopped up on it that I went to the movie theater for about 10 days straight.

Nakatsuru:
You went every day?

Toriyama:
I did. (laughs) I saw it about three times a day, and even now, I watch it on video. As a film I first saw during the emotional turmoil of adolescence, it influenced me greatly."
"Afer Enter the Dragon, the flow of action movies really changed, didn’t it?

Toriyama:
There was a boom in Kung-Fu movies, and everything had “Dragon” tacked on to it. But I thought, “Something’s different. It has the feel of a cheap knockoff,” and around that time, I saw Jackie Chan in Drunken Master and got hooked. Altogether, I must have watched that over 200 times, as well.

Nakatsuru:
So, did Dragon Ball’s “Dragon” come from Enter the Dragon?

Toriyama:
Of course. Anyway, something Kung-Fu has to have “Dragon” in it. Because, I thought, if it doesn’t, then it’s not Kung-Fu. Huh? Ah, I’m just like all those cheap knockoff movies. (laughs)

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