Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

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shonenhikada
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Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by shonenhikada » Mon May 25, 2015 10:57 am

Do you think it's time Toriyama became more progressive and introduce villains such as these. I remember in Rurouni Kenshin one of the members of the Jupen Gatina looked female but was in fact a male who was a cross dresser. Why can't we have something like this in DB ? Similarly, YES we got General Blue but it's been a while since we've gotten a villian whose sexuality been explored. Would be interesting having a main villian in the series who was bi-sexual or gay. What u guys think ?

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Mon May 25, 2015 11:14 am

Introducing a certain type of characters to meet some kind of quota or propaganda is ridiculous.

And we already had Blue.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by KameRule » Mon May 25, 2015 11:21 am

Not particularly bothered either way, though implementing that in the main cast could be interesting.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by shonenhikada » Mon May 25, 2015 11:24 am

KameRule wrote:Not particularly bothered either way, though implementing that in the main cast could be interesting.
Like introducing a saiyan warrior who looked like Gine but was in fact a man ?

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon May 25, 2015 11:30 am

shonenhikada wrote:
KameRule wrote:Not particularly bothered either way, though implementing that in the main cast could be interesting.
Like introducing a saiyan warrior who looked like Gine but was in fact a man ?
Would that make the story better?

Kamatari's gender inclinations in Kenshin had a point. It added to his character. He loved Shishio, but Shishio would never love him back, so he decided to become the best fighter he could in order to serve him.

Alternately, you have the shop guy in Frozen, who was an inclusion of a gay character seamlessly into the narrative. It worked because he was treated like everyone else, and it never became an issue.

Making a big deal about a character being gay does nothing to help the story unless you do something with it. How would you go about utilizing a gay/hermaphroditic/bisexual villain in Dragon Ball?
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DB1984 » Mon May 25, 2015 11:34 am

Don Kia in GT was a homosexual, wasn't he?

Then again, Toriyama did not write its story.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Bullza » Mon May 25, 2015 11:42 am

Do you think it's time Toriyama became more progressive and introduce villains such as these.
No that'd be an horrendous idea. Goku going to high school in Evolution horrendous.

Nobody watches DBZ and thinks "This is a really good and kick ass show but it'd be better if the villain had both male and female genitals."

Keep all of that nonsense out of the series it'd do a lot more harm than good.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Mon May 25, 2015 11:56 am

Er...what exactly does Evolution and Goku in high school have to do with this topic? And for that matter, declaring these matters as 'nonsense'? Wow, classy.

That said though, I do agree with Kamiccolo that if they're going to do it, they need to do it right. Just shoehorning in a gay/bisexual/etc. character for the sake of having one would likely come off as pandering and would serve absolutely no purpose other than putting a check in a box on some people's listings. But if they had it either serve some kind of narrative purpose, or it was just a small fact about a character that was fleshed out and had a lot more going on other than their sexual identity, then that would be progressive.

I'm having a hard time thinking of what a good example of the first way would be for Dragon Ball, but for the second would be like...if it actually did come out that Tenshinhan was gay, or if Trunks was, or something. Granted, depending on how they went about it, it could come off as feeling 'tacked on' and fall into the checklist pit I mentioned, but if done right, it would just be a small part of their overall characters.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by KameRule » Mon May 25, 2015 12:06 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote: Making a big deal about a character being gay does nothing to help the story unless you do something with it. How would you go about utilizing a gay/hermaphroditic/bisexual villain in Dragon Ball?
I don't know. Maybe something akin to Zoisite and Kunzite in the 1993 Sailor Moon anime?
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by TripleRach » Mon May 25, 2015 12:14 pm

This thread is on very thin ice. Keep it mature, or posts may be deleted, or account strikes given out.

EDIT: This was in reference to the problematic way in which the thread was created.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Bullza » Mon May 25, 2015 12:24 pm

And for that matter, declaring these matters as 'nonsense'? Wow, classy
That's because that's exactly what it is. Dragon Ball Z is already hugely popular without having to pander. Nobody watches DBZ to see gay relationships and transgender villains. In a list of things that people want from Dragon Ball Super that would be at the bottom of the list.

It causes far more problems than necessary. DC try this kind of thing and every now and then there's some kind of controversy, controversy on Batwoman not getting married, controversy over the portrayal of a transgender villain, controversy over making a long standing character gay which mainly angers the fans who cry "PC".

Even if they did do something like that it'd probably end up just like the exaggerated cliche gay characters in Dragon Ball like General Blue or the chararcter in One Piece like Bon Clay where they're played for laughs which would only cause people to complain about it anyway.

It's not needed and it's not wanted, there's nothing to gain from it and plenty to lose so it should never be done.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon May 25, 2015 12:57 pm

While the way Bullza is wording it is bound to draw the ire of some (hell, it was my original knee-jerk reaction too), there is definitely some logic to it. I mean, you could easily argue that making a character gay, etc. is no different than making a character straight, which ties into our thoughts on normalcy... you know, that straight is default and anything else is an aberration. But just looking at Dragon Ball itself as an entity and how it deals with sexuality, you see that it really doesn't go too deeply into the characters' romantic lives. The series is primarily about fighting, and what little romance there is is there mainly for the sake of reproduction, so having those characters be straight seems like a no-brainer. Hell, that's the only reason Goku is implied to have a sexuality at all because he certainly exhibits no interest in sex prior to or following those events. Even with having two sons, you could easily make the argument against him being straight up heterosexual as opposed to just asexual who's going through the motions.

Honestly, there are only a few characters off the top of my head who actually have their sexuality as components of their characters: Blooma, who is man-crazy. Yamucha, who longs to get married. Kuririn, who starts off a horny little bastard and later adopts the same mentality as Yamucha. Kame'sennin and Oolong, who are lecherous. Lunch, who randomly expresses attraction towards Tenshinhan. Goten, who apparently likes to date by the end of the series. Neither Yamucha nor Blooma could be gay unless you changed the sex of one of them, since it's their heterosexuality that drives the plot of the first arc. Kuririn could be, but then his relationship with #18 couldn't happen. Lunch is probably the likeliest candidate. Actually, come to think of it, that's not as short of a list as I first assumed...

But anyway, I'm kinda rambling now. My point is there are few opportunities in the structure of the series for such characters to exist without it seeming like it's calling attention to itself, which is completely off the focus of the story. I agree that it could only work if it feels organic, say if Goten goes out on a date, and his date is male... or Trunks (why not?), and it's not calling attention to itself (or serving as a very special episode where Vegeta overcomes his homophobia, something that would be totally, ridiculously outside of the realm of Dragon Ball's storytelling) but rather is set up and accepted as a natural extension of their childhood friendship.

A trans character would probably be even more difficult as it would require loads more explanation and deviation from the usual punch, punch, blow up a mountain. The only way it wouldn't be is if it was done for a gag, which certainly has the potential to be offensive and is most likely not the kind of inclusion we're talking about here.

I feel like I had a point here, but maybe the more I write, the less I'm sure of myself. Nothing's impossible, so there is a chance such a character could be handled deftly and seamlessly. It still seems unlikely to me that DB would be able to pull it off.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Makai » Mon May 25, 2015 1:06 pm

There's no need for any of that in a series like this. What's the point? We've seen many characters in throughout Dragon ball, any one of them could very well be gay/bi/trans. But what is it of our bussiness? Has nothing to do with the overall story, and would most likel just be thrown in for political reasons. The only way I see it actually happening is for a gag. Nothing more.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon May 25, 2015 2:01 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:That said though, I do agree with Kamiccolo that if they're going to do it, they need to do it right. Just shoehorning in a gay/bisexual/etc. character for the sake of having one would likely come off as pandering and would serve absolutely no purpose other than putting a check in a box on some people's listings. But if they had it either serve some kind of narrative purpose, or it was just a small fact about a character that was fleshed out and had a lot more going on other than their sexual identity, then that would be progressive.
Perfectly said, Gyt Kaliba. I wouldn't mind gay/bisexual characters, just as long as it doesn't feel like a shallow or pointless addition to the character and actually serves a purpose as far as the plot goes and leads to more character development.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Akyon » Mon May 25, 2015 2:27 pm

Blue and Zarbon(maybe) were two of the best damn henchmen characters we've had in Dragonball. However their sexual preference didn't really factor into their character outside of neither being distracted by Bulma's flirting. In Blue's case it's a minor plot point, in Zarbon's he's busy fighting with someone to the death.

A lot of people thought Frieza could be trans when we first saw him because the lipstick, effeminate hand gestures, polite talking, etc, and he turned out to be the greatest monster in all of DB. No comment was ever made on either Frieza or Zarbon's sexuality because frankly it didn't matter to the story.

I'd be fine with the addition of more homosexual characters, but they have to be handled right.
I'm not sure how you'd go about showcasing homosexuality in something like Dragonball in a mature way either. We had a few faux pas with Blue's attraction to little boys in the anime for example or Trunks' EoZ fight opponent.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon May 25, 2015 2:37 pm

We had General Blue. He was pretty funny....though he also was a pedophile I think...

On this topic....does it really matter? I don't think this type of villain would add, or be a detriment either. I don't think sexuality would really effect anything honestly. I didn't really mean anything with General Blue, and I don't think it would mean anything for anyone else either. I don't think it would mean anything as it's just a sexual preference....so what? Sexual preferences usually shouldn't be made a big deal of in the first place.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by shonenhikada » Mon May 25, 2015 2:56 pm

Akyon wrote:Blue and Zarbon(maybe) were two of the best damn henchmen characters we've had in Dragonball. However their sexual preference didn't really factor into their character outside of neither being distracted by Bulma's flirting. In Blue's case it's a minor plot point, in Zarbon's he's busy fighting with someone to the death.

A lot of people thought Freeza could be trans when we first saw him because the lipstick, effeminate hand gestures, polite talking, etc, and he turned out to be the greatest monster in all of DB. No comment was ever made on either Freeza or Zarbon's sexuality because frankly it didn't matter to the story.

I'd be fine with the addition of more homosexual characters, but they have to be handled right.
I'm not sure how you'd go about showcasing homosexuality in something like Dragonball in a mature way either. We had a few faux pas with Blue's attraction to little boys in the anime for example or Trunks' EoZ fight opponent.
Zarbon isn't gay.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by StrawHatPatriot » Mon May 25, 2015 3:05 pm

A lot of unnecessary vitriol in this thread. Yikes, the poster asking the question was being calm about it for pete's sake.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Cetra » Mon May 25, 2015 3:10 pm

shonenhikada wrote: Zarbon isn't gay.
Right, he has a girlfriend and surprised Freeza with that.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by shonenhikada » Mon May 25, 2015 3:14 pm

Cetra wrote:
shonenhikada wrote: Zarbon isn't gay.
Right, he has a girlfriend and surprised Freeza with that.
Watch ocean dub Zarbon. He is badass.

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