Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

[Zenkai]

Unlike being gay being an asshole is a choice

Being attracted to someone of the same sex is not a choice and it's not a sin.

Having gay sex is both a choice and a sin.

A lot of folks confuse 'people' with 'behavior' in regards to this issue. Gay sex is a behavior.

There are plenty of people who are exclusively attracted to people of the same sex who try to live chaste lives and follow the Lord.

I do not hate anyone. I'm against immoral behavior.

[Basaku]

So whats the point of asking for it then?

Same as saying "you shouldn't be forcing Toriyama to do anything". In both cases he's obviously not stuck to the monitor frantically F5-ing the page to see new posts that will help him decide what to do.

I dont know what you're referring to with "biologically" but its not as if Anime is in any drought of it, it has always had gay characters represented. Their characterizations just depend on the genre.

I means that the concept of homsosexuality is clear to everyone on the planet, nobody is going "we're so confused what is this western homosexuality and why someone is hoping for it in Dragon Ball".

Most of Japan only know the memes of western culture imports, not the movement, history or direction's expansion. Why would you expect them to suddenly be an expert now?

So we're tlaking the author or the audience? You're jumping from one to another. Obviously Toriayama's well aware and even if the Japanese audience is not expert in history of gay portrayals in the west they all know what an "average gay" is instead of stereotype parodies of one kind or another.

I do not hate anyone. I'm against immoral behavior.

Immoral behavior is one that harms someone else, not something written in a religious text "just because".

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly think at this stage this thread should be locked. Because it seems as though this debate will not get back on the right track.

[VegettoEX]

I honestly think at this stage this thread should be locked. Because it seems as though this debate will not get back on the right track.

There are plenty of great contributions. I'm enjoying reading them, and I wish there were more.

Account strikes and bans are being issued by the administrative and moderation teams for those who do not wish to carry out this mission.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Same as saying "you shouldn't be forcing Toriyama to do anything". In both cases he's obviously not stuck to the monitor frantically F5-ing the page to see new posts that will help him decide what to do.

Well what conclusion are you looking for from this topic? There is nothing that objectively needs to be repremended here.

I means that the concept of homsosexuality is clear to everyone on the planet, nobody is going "we're so confused what is this western homosexuality and why someone is hoping for it in Dragon Ball".

Well it kinda is in some ways. The degree of how you want it to be portrayed and within an alternate context to what already exists requires more effort in its pitch so that it makes sense to coexist in it, without it sounded like a forced demand. I'm not saying it needs to be debated, its just an out-of-the-blue thing for a concern to be specifically rooted into something the series never prioritized addressing before it.

So we're tlaking the author or the audience? You're jumping from one to another. Obviously Toriayama's well aware and even if the Japanese audience is not expert in history of gay portrayals in the west they all know what an "average gay" is instead of stereotype parodies of one kind or another.

Stereotype parodies will be the abundance in comedy shows. Its dragonball we're talking about here too.

[Gaffer Tape]

I just thought of a way a trans character might be/might have been able to fit into the context of Dragon Ball. It would have been something early on back when Goku still had difficulty determining sex. In that context, Goku would consider a transgender person to be quite fascinating. And it's about as organic a scenario as I can imagine Dragon Ball coming up with because it ties into and expands existing character traits. There'd certainly be opportunities for humor and confusion, but it doesn't necessarily have to be demeaning either. One of the things I liked most about early Dragon Ball was Goku's innocent curiosity towards sex, gender, and sexuality in general.

[Basaku]

Well what conclusion are you looking for from this topic?

What are you? I mean, you were the one who acted as if Toriyama needs defending from demands like if gay fans were picketing in front of his house

Well it kinda is in some ways. The degree of how you want it to be portrayed and within an alternate context to what already exists requires more effort in its pitch so that it makes sense to coexist in it, without it sounded like a forced demand. I'm not saying it needs to be debated, its just an out-of-the-blue thing for a concern to be specifically rooted into something the series never prioritized addressing before it.

Nothing needs to be proritized and there's no huge effort here. Grown-up Bra is walking down the street with her girlfriend in DBS and a new villain attacks Earth, commence 20 episodes of fighting. The point is in hoping that gay characters in DB will exist in other forms than solely dated western (or eastern) stereotypes.

Stereotype parodies will be the abundance in comedy shows. Its dragonball we're talking about here too.

Yet next to Kammesenin or Oolong there are also 'average straight Joes' like Gohan. No reason why straight characters can exist both as gag characters and normal relevant characters yet gay characters can get relegated exclusively to the former.

[goku the krump dancer]

Couldn't the Six Star Dragon be considered trans? Well.. Not Really I guess it was more or less a male monster dressed as a humanoid female. So..it.. doesn't count?

[AM Reflection]

Uh.... no.... if that were the case, then why were Bulma and Yamucha stated to be a couple? When they started, they both wanted a relationship, that was their primary motivation at the start of the series. So why were they a couple? Why was them breaking up a thing that happens at the start of the Saiyan arc? It was even stated Yamucha cheated on her.

That's literally the only semi-developed, normal romantic relationship we've ever been shown in Dragon Ball that didn't lead to offspring. And it existed primarily for comic relief.

Mortal Kombat X recently included a VERY respectful and very subtle portrayal of a gay character in the form of Kung Jin. the lines referencing his sexuality are in the game, but they are subtle (he asks Raiden if he will ever be truly accepted because... and Raiden cuts him off and tells him that doesn't matter to be a champion of Earthrealm)
Other than that nod, he makes no sexual comments or references, that line was literally the only reference to him being gay (It was confirmed to be about him being gay by Netherrealm Studios on their Twitter) and that was it.

There's no reason Dragonball can't have a character who acts and is exactly like the entire cast we already have, but also happen to be gay.

Okay, lol. Sorry, but about that MK character...how is that a good example? If his sexuality had to be confirmed by the creators on Twitter, is that in itself not confirmation that his portrayal was ambiguous? So what's the point? We already have enough characters in DB with ambiguous sexual orientation. It's every character aside from the few you listed earlier.

Basically, I don't see a valid reason for specifically wanting "Trans/Gay/Bisexual" characters. It should be either you want more romance in general or you don't. You simply can't properly portray a gay character without the series being forced to show more romance than it has been inclined to do.

[DemonRin]

I just thought of a way a trans character might be/might have been able to fit into the context of Dragon Ball. It would have been something early on back when Goku still had difficulty determining sex. In that context, Goku would consider a transgender person to be quite fascinating. And it's about as organic a scenario as I can imagine Dragon Ball coming up with because it ties into and expands existing character traits. There'd certainly be opportunities for humor and confusion, but it doesn't necessarily have to be demeaning either. One of the things I liked most about early Dragon Ball was Goku's innocent curiosity towards sex, gender, and sexuality in general.

That's a really good point. Patpat would be a very funny and good way to introduce a trans character, especially because you could play Goku's childline innocence completely straight in this regard and not make it ENTIRELY a punchline.

Couldn't the Six Star Dragon be considered trans? Well.. Not Really I guess it was more or less a male monster dressed as a humanoid female. So..it.. doesn't count?

That's a tough one... I've not seen GT in a while. Does the dragon profess to being a female, or when the truth is discovered does the dragon profess to being a man?
whether or not she is trans would depend on what she actually considers herself.

That's literally the only semi-developed, normal romantic relationship we've ever been shown in Dragon Ball that didn't lead to offspring. And it existed primarily for comic relief.

A Gay character can exist for comedy relief too without it being disrespectful.

Acting like the character is a pedophile because he's gay a'la Blue is the bad kind of Puncline. But, for example, introducing a male character, portraying him the same way you would Kuririn, or Tenshinhan as a fully rounded character with his own quirks who is completely capable in his own right. Have them go to like a Teknaichi Budokai and then Kamesen'nin makes a lewd remark about wanting to oggle all the pretty girls in his prescience and be like "Amiright?" like he's trying to get the new guy to join in, and have the guy be like "Actually, I prefer guys" and have Kamesen'nin make a joke about more girls for him.

Boom.

I just wrote a scene that, handled properly, would be funny, respectfully handled, and wouldn't rely on the character being overtly lovey dovey romantic with another character.

Okay, lol. Sorry, but about that MK character...how is that a good example? If his sexuality had to be confirmed by the creators on Twitter, is that in itself not confirmation that his portrayal was ambiguous? So what's the point? We already have enough characters in DB with ambiguous sexual orientation. It's every character aside from the few you listed earlier.

Basically, I don't see a valid reason for specifically wanting "Trans/Gay/Bisexual" characters. It should be either you want more romance in general or you don't. You simply can't properly portray a gay character without the series being forced to show more romance than it has been inclined to do.

I just mentioned how you can. People have this ridiculous notion that a gay person must be defined by their gayness, when in fact this isn't the case and a character can be a 3 dimensional character who also HAPPENS to like the same sex.

The reason it's a good thing is, being gay is still Stigmatized in this society, as evidenced by a few of the posters in here who I won't mention by name.
Visibility helps with this because it shows the lay person that "Gay people can be totally normal cool people and aren't walking stereotypes".

It also helps LGBT youth have role models, as years of telling kids "Gay is wrong" has conditioned the world to believe that to some extent. You stigmatize these kids into thinking there's something wrong with them or they're evil or sinful and it messes them up. It makes them hide who they are, sometimes to the point of suicide.

I'm not saying having more LGBT characters in media would be an instant fix, but it is at least a very good step towards acceptance.

I know as a kid, I was scared to come out as Trans to my parents because of the stereotyping and the hate and the "your're a sinner" talk, so I didn't come out until my teens, which was a mistake. I wish I had younger. I had no role models growing up, and I never see myself represented in most media. It's getting better with like, Laverne Cox and such, but I REALLY hate that being trans is STILL considered taboo in a lot of places.

Perfect example, I'm a gamer. Nintendo of all places published a game back in 2004 that featured a very good, very respectful portrayal of a transwoman character. The character's name was Vivian and the game was Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. Vivian is a member of the "Shadow Sisters" and is assigned male at birth, she professes a female gender identity and presents female, but her sisters mock her and use exclusively male terminology to refer to her. They are very clearly portrayed as villains and bad, the game treating the transphobia as a bad thing. Mario and Goombella, the main characters, are the good guys and treat her nice, respectful, and accept her as female, so she joins their party and helps save the world.

Nintendo of AMERICA however, decided based on societal norms, that ANY reference to the character as trans was taboo, so it got censored. in the English version, the sisters are simply mean to her, and all the misgendering is replaced with outright insults like "Pug-Ugly".
This is a case of the creators (Nintendo of Japan) having their art changed and censored from societal norms, and that's really what the big problem is. People still see LGBT issues as a problem, or a sexual thing, when in reality it's so much more than that.


Now, about DB, we are all discussing a hypothetical scenario here. I personally dislike the idea of Toriyama or Toei being FORCED to include any character, including an LGBT one, and am a bit wary of the idea in general due to their track record on the subject (See Gen. Blue and Otokosuki) but it being literally decades since the Manga originally ended, Their attitudes on the subject may have changed and they MAY want to naturally include such characters in future DB properties.

I'm simply saying I'd welcome a naturally written portrayal that Toriyama and/or Toei included as part of the natural creative process and feel an LGBT character, in that situation, could fit into the DB world quite well.

[CashmanX]

Totally not Dragonball, but If people want to see how Toriyama would write a trans character, check out the second to last chapter of the oneshot "GOGO ACKMAN".

It's a punchline, but at least its something.

[Gaffer Tape]

Perfect example, I'm a gamer. Nintendo of all places published a game back in 2004 that featured a very good, very respectful portrayal of a transwoman character. The character's name was Vivian and the game was Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. Vivian is a member of the "Shadow Sisters" and is assigned male at birth, she professes a female gender identity and presents female, but her sisters mock her and use exclusively male terminology to refer to her. They are very clearly portrayed as villains and bad, the game treating the transphobia as a bad thing. Mario and Goombella, the main characters, are the good guys and treat her nice, respectful, and accept her as female, so she joins their party and helps save the world.

Nintendo of AMERICA however, decided based on societal norms, that ANY reference to the character as trans was taboo, so it got censored. in the English version, the sisters are simply mean to her, and all the misgendering is replaced with outright insults like "Pug-Ugly".
This is a case of the creators (Nintendo of Japan) having their art changed and censored from societal norms, and that's really what the big problem is. People still see LGBT issues as a problem, or a sexual thing, when in reality it's so much more than that.

Yeah, I always loved the character of Vivian, even before I knew NOA had censored her history. But that was a very powerful story, and I wish they'd kept it. In case you didn't know, it's not the first time they did that to a Mario character. Catherine/Birdo is pretty much exactly the same way. I remember reading the character's description in the SMB2 instruction manual where it said that he was a boy who wishes he was a girl and preferred to be called "Birdetta." So they actually kept that originally! But in all subsequent appearances, they've ignored it, although, if you're generous, I guess you could say that she just finally finished transitioning.

Anyway, DemonRin, I had no idea you were trans. Your story sounds fascinating, and I would love to talk with you about it some time.

[Gaffer Tape]

Oh, wait. Is that the case? The "Cathy" thing sounds familiar. I don't know. Someone please feel free to correct me.

I highly recommend TYD, though. Structurally, it's very similar to the first game, but it does away with the saccharine elements of it and replaces it with much cleverer humor. It's my favorite of the series that I've played (although SPM is also very good).

[Metalwario64]

Of course, I could be wrong too. I'm going off of memory, and quick searches. I'm finding conflicting information.

[EDIT]

Manual profile: 「自分をメスと思いこんで口からタマゴなどをはくヤツ。キャシーと呼ぶときげんがいい。」 (Translation: "He thinks he is a girl and he spits eggs from his mouth. He'd rather be called 'Cathy.'")

Well, it appears that I was wrong. Though, wanting to be called "Cathy" is accurate.

Still, it's crazy that in the 80s, Nintendo of America thought having a transgendered character was okay, but then 15 years later it was wrong. Talk about regression.

[VegettoEX]

The examples in other media are fascinating, but I will ask that you bring it back to Dragon Ball, somehow.

[Polyphase Avatron]

A thread on queer characters and NO one mentions Whis? Really?

On a related note I think it's kinda cool gay characters in DB were relegated to shitty stereotypes (General Blue, Otokosuki) and now the strongest being in the universe(s) Whis in FABULOUS. Go Japan! (Maybe soon we'll get leading African American characters WITHOUT ridiculously oversized lips).

I think Whis is more what TVTropes calls "camp straight", or just effeminate but asexual.

[Metalwario64]

The examples in other media are fascinating, but I will ask that you bring it back to Dragon Ball, somehow.

Yeah, I understand. Sorry about permeating the off-topic discussion.

[Rocketman]

Still, it's crazy that in the 80s, Nintendo of America thought having a transgendered character was okay, but then 15 years later it was wrong. Talk about regression.

There was a big conservative pushback in the 80s against the Sexual Revolution, helped by the AIDS panic. We're just now coming out of that.

[AM Reflection]

I just thought of a way a trans character might be/might have been able to fit into the context of Dragon Ball. It would have been something early on back when Goku still had difficulty determining sex. In that context, Goku would consider a transgender person to be quite fascinating. And it's about as organic a scenario as I can imagine Dragon Ball coming up with because it ties into and expands existing character traits. There'd certainly be opportunities for humor and confusion, but it doesn't necessarily have to be demeaning either. One of the things I liked most about early Dragon Ball was Goku's innocent curiosity towards sex, gender, and sexuality in general.

Nice. That definitely could have been a worthy scenario to explore in the early chapters. I could imagine it happening where Goku would be the only one thinking the trans character wasn't weird since he was never really taught about the standard gender roles. Way more complex of an issue than DB would feature though, lol.

[...]I just mentioned how you can. People have this ridiculous notion that a gay person must be defined by their gayness, when in fact this isn't the case and a character can be a 3 dimensional character who also HAPPENS to like the same sex.[...]

I said "valid" reason for wanting it. By that, I meant a reason other than to push a primarily Western agenda. All of the reasons you gave are fully and solely based on your personal "agenda" (right or wrong) as a LGBT who wants societal norms to change to fit your lifestyle.

For a gay character to be gay, it has to be shown or stated (as in your hypothetical scenario). Why? How many characters have outright stated "I like women" in the series? Not many. It's just assumed for some reason...but you're free to believe most of the cast is homosexual if you like. There's nothing that contradicts the idea of 17, Chiaotzu or Marron being gay, for example. You're asking for Toriyama to draw attention to something that is usually not drawn attention to. The fact is that a character's sexual/romantic inclinations have very little place in DB.

[fadeddreams5]

There's nothing that contradicts the idea of 17, Chiaotzu or Marron being gay, for example.

Well, Toriyama did say 17 is a park ranger, married, and has kids.

Marron is a little girl. By EoZ, she's prob still too young to know her orientation.

And Chiaotzu is perpetually a child, and treated as such.

= P