Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue May 26, 2015 12:15 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:FUNimation's voices for both Zarbon and Freeza were pretty close to their Ocean counterparts (after all, all of the season 3 voices were meant to be imitations). The season 3 scripts might have exacerbated problems, but Linda Young was doing the same shtick people complained about Pauline Newstone doing two years earlier. And people were making jokes about whether or not Zarbon was gay long before Chris Sabat started voicing him.
I'd still bank on the voices more than anything is what caused it. Though I am unaware if this was something people thought of during the manga's release, or maybe in the original Japanese voices which doesn't seem to give the homosexual feeling in their voices.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue May 26, 2015 12:15 am

AM Reflection wrote:
shonenhikada wrote:Do you think it's time Toriyama became more progressive and introduce villains such as these. I remember in Rurouni Kenshin one of the members of the Jupen Gatina looked female but was in fact a male who was a cross dresser. Why can't we have something like this in DB ? Similarly, YES we got General Blue but it's been a while since we've gotten a villian whose sexuality been explored. Would be interesting having a main villian in the series who was bi-sexual or gay. What u guys think ?
What part of a character who "looked female but was in fact a male who was a cross dresser" do you consider to be "progressive"? Not a rhetorical question. I legit want to know.

Anyway, I say no to this idea. As you said, we got General Blue. How many unquestionably straight villains have we really gotten? To me, being "progressive" would be exploring any sort of romantic ideas relating to the villain in depth.
Well, he did mention Kamatari in Rurouni Kenshin, who was a great character. He was a crossdresser who had an unrequited love for his master, so he compensates for that by becoming the best warrior he can be. It's not a very big character arc, but it's handled very well.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by theoriginalbilis » Tue May 26, 2015 1:36 am

If it will add to the rich cast of characters and the diverse world of DragonBall without feeling forced or insulting, I don't have any problems with adding those types of characters into newer material.

However, Toriyama's gay characters have tended to fall towards the Japanese stereotype of "over-the-top effeminate" or "man-hungry" gay men, so... eh...
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by sailorspazz » Tue May 26, 2015 4:09 am

I don't know, Toriyama may have toned down the over-the-top gay stereotypes recently. In Jaco, the character Katayude had some of the features Toriyama has used previously for homosexual characters (those eyelashes, for example). I'd say there's not enough information given in Jaco to definitely say he was supposed to be gay, but if he was it was definitely a subtle representation.

If they choose to add any new character(s) who are LGBT, I would hope for them to just be treated like any other character, rather than some outlandish caricature whose sexuality is their defining feature. That's true representation :thumbup: On the other hand, if they're too normal, they'll fade to the background amidst all the outlandish characters surrounding them! Toriyama doesn't like dealing with relationships anyway (unless he's changed recently...not sure if the fun VegeBul moments in Battle of Gods were written by him or were from the initial scriptwriter), so he wouldn't go so far as having a full-on homosexual romance. But having a non-stereotypical gay character in a shounen series would be nice.

As for how Japan views homosexuality, I saw news recently that Shibuya ward in Tokyo has begun recognizing same-sex partnerships. While it's unlikely such laws will pass in the rest of the country any time soon (especially with a conservative prime minister currently in office), it's an indication that views are starting to change.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Tue May 26, 2015 6:21 am

Some weird and dangerous opinions here... Especially regarding condoms and such.

Anyway... Some have argued that if it was incorporated naturally in the story, it would be fine. I kind of doubt that. Dragon Ball simply doesn't focus on those personal character issues. It would be jarring either way.
Zenkai wrote:I believe God made sex to be both procreative and unitive. Gay sex is not procreative; it cannot lead to reproduction.
We have plenty of examples of "religious" people and what they "believe" nowadays and throughout history. They are always dogmatic, repressive, divisive, discriminatory and against people's freedom and determination, pretty much like you are being regarding that issue. In effect, like you stated, you support that Japan has what amounts to second class citizens that are not allowed to have a secular, non-religious marriage with whoever they want. Such opinions only serve to regress a society in terms of freedom, tolerance, knowledge and rational thought and, if followed everywhere to the letter, the world would be in a new period of Dark Ages (which demonstrates, by itself, the quality of those opinions...) . That should have no place in the world, nor in this forum.

There are only two options for the treatment of gay, bisexual and trans-gender folk in a society. They are either treated equality and granted the equivalent rights and duties as everyone else, or they are discriminated agaisnt and repressed with varying degrees of force (which can go from the denial of rights, like the right to get married, to prosecution and genocide). Which is the most humane, fair, rational option? And if God is good, wouldn't he agree with that option?

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by ThunderPX » Tue May 26, 2015 9:57 am

Full disclosure--I am transgender and bisexual.

I personally don't think Dragon Ball would stand to gain anything from any new additions to characters' romantic or sexual orientation. Dragon Ball's never been very good at it (which is okay with me) and I honestly feel that even if you took the existing character pairings out of Dragon Ball, you wouldn't lose very much. So in all honesty... I don't care.

(Tenshinhan and Chaozu are clearly a couple though. ;))

As for a transgender character, I feel like that would work even less. It's something I've pondered a lot, as it's obviously something that's quite close to my heart and as a writer, I feel like I should think about how I would address the issue. And honestly, you simply can't do it without making the story about it. Unlike someone's sexual orientation, you can't casually drop that information because transgender people generally don't want people to know what body they were born with.

See, in an ideal world, people of all sexual orientations could mention that in regular conversation without people getting upset. That'd be nice, yeah? But for transgender people... we generally don't want to bring that up. Ever. Being called out on it is humiliating and degrading. So logically, you can't bring it up as subtly as you might a character being gay or bisexual. If it did happen... well, I could see Toriyama make it into a cringeworthy embarrassment joke, like that one dragon from DBGT who was born from Oolong's wish for panties. That's a bit sad, but whatever.

tl;dr: Dragon Ball shouldn't do this because it's not the focus of Dragon Ball, and Dragon Ball wouldn't be good at it if it tried.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Appūru-sama » Tue May 26, 2015 10:22 am

A thread on queer characters and NO one mentions Whis? Really?

On a related note I think it's kinda cool gay characters in DB were relegated to shitty stereotypes (General Blue, Otokosuki) and now the strongest being in the universe(s) Whis in FABULOUS. Go Japan! (Maybe soon we'll get leading African American characters WITHOUT ridiculously oversized lips).

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 26, 2015 10:55 am

I'm deleting the on-going "but my religious beliefs!" posts. You have been warned and asked, and you're not listening.

You do not have freedom of speech here. You are not allowed to be bigoted assholes toward other members.

There's a conversation to be had here. Have that conversation.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Tue May 26, 2015 12:23 pm

This is a show about fighting plain and simple. There does not need to be any sort of propaganda/political correctness in it. As I've seen a few other people say on here, I prefer escapism--not having to deal with the outside world and its social issues when I read a novel or watch a show.
Basaku wrote:Either you recognize logic that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality as it doesn't harm anyone and no reason to deny homosexual people right to marry or you blindly follow religious doctrine that says "it's wrong because it's wrong". And that is a choice, yours to make.
Seeing as genitalia is made for someone to have sex with the opposite gender, that throws the whole "homosexuality is natural" theory out the window. If homosexuality was truly natural and there was nothing wrong with it, then people most likely wouldn't be born with the body parts to reproduce with the opposite sex. Nothing in this world has definitive evidence homosexuality is normal--only society says it is. Science can't even say 100% (or anything even close) that it's normal and not a mental disorder.

Sure there is no harm to others, but marriage is not a right. It started out as nothing except a religious ceremony. Black people in the 1800s did not have rights--they were slaves, raped, tortured, bought/sold, those are rights issues. But marriage? It's just political propaganda to make homosexuals look like victims so they can become a protected class. In my honest opinion, I think a lot of issues would be solved if we didn't try to victimize everyone in society.

Being bullied? If you can't solve the issue peacefully and talking to a teacher doesn't help, sometimes a punch in the teeth will. Fat? Start losing weight instead of trying to get fat acceptance. Gay? Don't try saying you're a victim and you need to be a protected class. Other people suffering from issues such as schizophrenia and depression aren't some "protected class," so why should homosexuals be?

I think if we had been less liberal about the issue and tried curing it then we wouldn't be in this mess. =/

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 26, 2015 1:08 pm

I'm no longer deleting the posts. They're staying so you can know for sure.

That post right there in between mine? That's not OK. That's a perfect example of what NOT to be. If you're that person, we don't want you here. If you keep it up, we'll make sure you can't visit this website. At all. Ever. Again at all. Ever again.

Kanzenshuu is not your place to be a bigoted, anti-gay asshole. Go away.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DemonRin » Tue May 26, 2015 1:57 pm

The idea of more Gay characters or even a trans character in Dragonball is one of those things that would be a really neat really good thing that I think I'd like a lot, if it could be done with respect and care.

I don't think I've ever mentioned this 'round these parts because I go through some periods where I'm inactive and then I come back, but I myself am a Transwoman.

That being said, a trans character in Dragonball I think WOULD be a very neat thing, but only if it's a character written with a specific idea in mind. IE, the writers (in this case Toriyama, or maybe the writers at Toei for super) had a good idea for a character and made them gay/bi/trans for totally story relevant reasons that were written intentionally and with care.

I don't know if I trust Toriyama and/or Toei to write a good character in this vein TBH, especially after Blue and Otokosuki...
Of the two, Blue is definitely less of an overt stereotype, but then there's the pedophillia thing... ugh...

You'd have to force them to do a respectful portrayal, and a character who is forced to be gay/bi/trans just to have one runs the risk of being one-dimensional and meh in and of itself.


So my official answer is: I'd love to see one, but only if it can be both respectful as well as naturally and organically written, rather than shoehorned in.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue May 26, 2015 1:59 pm

I don't really think it's necessary. At all. The only way we know some characters in the series are even straight is because they produced off-spring, and that wasn't even a crucial part of their characters but more-so to extend the cast. I don't know why it'd be necessary to introduce a homosexual or transsexual character into the series or turn one of the already existing characters into one.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Payne222 » Tue May 26, 2015 2:07 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I'm no longer deleting the posts. They're staying so you can know for sure.

That post right there in between mine? That's not OK. That's a perfect example of what NOT to be. If you're that person, we don't want you here. If you keep it up, we'll make sure you can't visit this website. At all. Ever. Again at all. Ever again.

Kanzenshuu is not your place to be a bigoted, anti-gay asshole. Go away.
Isn't banning people who don't have the same political or social ideologies as you bigoted as well? How about just keeping the discussions to strictly Dragon Ball (which you state in the forum rules are all that discussions should be) and not Dragon Ball with sprinkles of ideology are deemed correct?

Personally, fighting homosexual bigotry (or any other kind) with the response of calling someone an asshole and telling them to go away or you'll forever ban them is part of the problem in creating even more divisions in people. Preach acceptance and accept others. Welcome him to the Dragon Ball community and keep the conversations like this in check so they don't turn into ideological flame wars and lock it if it goes off track like you guys do all the others.

As for OP and their original post, no, I don't think there needs to be forced inclusion of any certain type of character. I don't think it's necessary to tell an artist they have to include certain types of characters in their work.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Tue May 26, 2015 2:15 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I'm no longer deleting the posts. They're staying so you can know for sure.

That post right there in between mine? That's not OK. That's a perfect example of what NOT to be. If you're that person, we don't want you here. If you keep it up, we'll make sure you can't visit this website. At all. Ever. Again at all. Ever again.

Kanzenshuu is not your place to be a bigoted, anti-gay asshole. Go away.
I posted an opinion that isn't even based on religious beliefs. For you to give me a "board warning" for an opinion, call me names, and threaten to ban me is ridiculous and makes you the bigot as you don't want any sort of different opinion posted on here. I did not even try to attack or insult anyone even though I do realize some people may be offended by my opinion, but it's not a calculated, personal attack. I feel like it's you who shouldn't be allowed here, VegettoEX. You hate and want anyone with a different idea than you removed, and that's bigotry. It also makes you the asshole. Not exactly a good spokesperson or representation for the pro-gay community.

Also I'm on a VPN, so if you ever want to permaban me from the website (as in even the main page), go ahead and try me. I can get back if I truly want to.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 26, 2015 2:17 pm

I appreciate your feedback, Payne222, and there's certainly truth in it. That being said, that's our standpoint and that's that. We're not going to tolerate it. We're fine being branded as "that DBZ site who won't accept anti-gay bigotry and they're actively excluding me from their conversations and ridiculing me because of it."

This part of the conversation is over.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue May 26, 2015 2:22 pm

Doctor. wrote:I don't really think it's necessary. At all. The only way we know some characters in the series are even straight is because they produced off-spring, and that wasn't even a crucial part of their characters but more-so to extend the cast. I don't know why it'd be necessary to introduce a homosexual or transsexual character into the series or turn one of the already existing characters into one.
This is just about my stance on it, too. Things regarding sexual orientation and really, politics and social issues in general are so far out of the scope of Dragon Ball subject matter that I'm surprised this is even a discussion (and why i made an admittedly stupid joke response the first time this was posted). The few times we have seen someone's sexuality made a defining characteristic, it was a crude thing played for laughs. A transsexual/gay character in DB would probably be more harmful than progressive, and more importantly, not particularly relevant to the show. Romance is such an afterthought in Dragon Ball that focusing so heavily on sexual orientation would probably feel shoehorned and disingenuous.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue May 26, 2015 2:28 pm

I forgot whether I answered this topic. We don't need a trans/gay/bi-sexual villian, but there's no reason not to have one either. That said, there should be absolutely no overemphasis on their sexuality. I mean, besides Blue and background characters, no villain has revealed their sexual orientation at all. In fact, the main villains are all asexual! King Piccolo had a ball making babies. Cell has his Cell jrs. In DBO, Buu is apparently able to create a female Buu or something. Yeah...

And just one thing I need to get off my chest...
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Seeing as genitalia is made for someone to have sex with the opposite gender, that throws the whole "homosexuality is natural" theory out the window. If homosexuality was truly natural and there was nothing wrong with it, then people most likely wouldn't be born with the body parts to reproduce with the opposite sex. Nothing in this world has definitive evidence homosexuality is normal--only society says it is. Science can't even say 100% (or anything even close) that it's normal and not a mental disorder.
You know homosexuals can still reproduce, right? They don't need to be attracted to the opposite sex to have kids. Besides releasing waste, those body parts are there to procreate, and nothing about their sexuality inhibit that.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Tue May 26, 2015 2:31 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
I posted an opinion that isn't even based on religious beliefs. For you to give me a "board warning" for an opinion, call me names, and threaten to ban me is ridiculous and makes you the bigot as you don't want any sort of different opinion posted on here. I did not even try to attack or insult anyone even though I do realize some people may be offended by my opinion, but it's not a calculated, personal attack. I feel like it's you who shouldn't be allowed here, VegettoEX. You hate and want anyone with a different idea than you removed, and that's bigotry. It also makes you the asshole. Not exactly a good spokesperson or representation for the pro-gay community.

Also I'm on a VPN, so if you ever want to permaban me from the website (as in even the main page), go ahead and try me. I can get back if I truly want to.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Tue May 26, 2015 2:36 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:You know homosexuals can still reproduce, right? They don't need to be attracted to the opposite sex to have kids. Besides releasing waste, those body parts are there to procreate, and nothing about their sexuality inhibit that.
Yeah but the idea is that if homosexuality truly was natural and didn't have anything wrong with it then they would not be made with sexual organs for reproduction since it is not in their orientation to do so. That's all. I do realize they are capable--I know a guy who is gay but impregnated his best (girl) friend a long time ago. Just to clear it up, he regretted it, she got an abortion, and he's 100% gay now and not having sex with a girl again. But yeah, I realize it can happen.
VegettoEX wrote:We're fine being branded as "that DBZ site who won't accept anti-gay bigotry and they're actively excluding me from their conversations and ridiculing me because of it."
Making fun of people who have differing beliefs and excluding them, then calling them the bigots? VegettoEX is going to be one of my top five examples of "Pro-Homosexuality Bigots" from now on. Hell, you're worse than the people on Reddit. At least they aren't hypocrites to this extent...
rereboy wrote:"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." - Philosopher Karl Popper.

People with intolerant opinions really shouldn't expect tolerance regarding them, nor have they that right.
Seeing as people who are pro-homosexuality claim to be "open-minded" and "tolerant" we kind of can expect tolerance. People against homosexuality aren't murdering, torturing, or anything else to anyone. We simply don't believe that two people of the same sex should marry. That means I can't marry a man, you can't marry a man (or woman, depending on your gender), and so forth. I don't look down upon homosexuals or treat them differently. They're people. I don't believe I or anyone else should have the "right" to marry the same sex.

This is just more hypocrisy and bigotry from you liberals for same-sex marriage. I swear, everything about that political party is just contradicting your beliefs and pretending you have knowledge...

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 26, 2015 2:38 pm

A lot of terrible things are being said.

This part of the conversation is over.

You're free to have regular Dragon Ball discussions.
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