Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DemonRin » Tue May 26, 2015 3:06 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: This is just about my stance on it, too. Things regarding sexual orientation and really, politics and social issues in general are so far out of the scope of Dragon Ball subject matter that I'm surprised this is even a discussion
This is a big problem and part of why LGBT visibility is something a lot of people want in media. LGBT people exist. We are part of the world that we live in.
Dragonball obviously takes place on an alternate version of Earth, but its got elements that are recognizable. Folks have televisions, refrigerators, etc and General Blue is definitively called Gay by Bulma, so we know being gay is such a thing in this universe. So what is wrong with wanting to see the reality of LGBT folks portrayed in this world?

The idea that being LGBT is inherently a Political issue is bad. We aren't a Political position, we are people, we are natural and normal and just want to live our lives. So why COULDN'T the Dragonball universe be inclusive and include us?

Nobody sees it as political for example when characters show overt Heterosexual sexuality.
why is it not considered political when Kamesen'nin tries to grope 18? Or when Kuririn crushes on her.

Not saying DB should definitely have this or that it should be forced upon them, a hamfisted or shoehorned portrayal could come out really sloppy and end up offensive in and of itself, but the very idea of LGBT people shouldn't be considered inherently political.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue May 26, 2015 3:18 pm

DemonRin wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote: This is just about my stance on it, too. Things regarding sexual orientation and really, politics and social issues in general are so far out of the scope of Dragon Ball subject matter that I'm surprised this is even a discussion
This is a big problem and part of why LGBT visibility is something a lot of people want in media. LGBT people exist. We are part of the world that we live in.
Dragonball obviously takes place on an alternate version of Earth, but its got elements that are recognizable. Folks have televisions, refrigerators, etc and General Blue is definitively called Gay by Bulma, so we know being gay is such a thing in this universe. So what is wrong with wanting to see the reality of LGBT folks portrayed in this world?

The idea that being LGBT is inherently a Political issue is bad. We aren't a Political position, we are people, we are natural and normal and just want to live our lives. So why COULDN'T the Dragonball universe be inclusive and include us?

Nobody sees it as political for example when characters show overt Heterosexual sexuality.
why is it not considered political when Kamesen'nin tries to grope 18? Or when Kuririn crushes on her.

Not saying DB should definitely have this or that it should be forced upon them, a hamfisted or shoehorned portrayal could come out really sloppy and end up offensive in and of itself, but the very idea of LGBT people shouldn't be considered inherently political.
Well, I used the example of the shop/inn/whatever keeper in Frozen earlier.
Nothing in the dialogue or script says that the man is gay. He makes an offhand reference to his family at one point, and it shows his partner and children, and, and hear me out here, doesn't dwell on it. The movie just portrays a friendly man with his family, which, I think, is the most progressive way to do this.

"Progressive" in terms of sexual identity, in my opinion, shouldn't be about calling attention to it. It should be about society viewing it as normal, so there's no need to draw attention to it.

Someone please tell me I'm making sense here :P

Back to Dragon Ball, I don't think Toriyama has shown us that he can pull this off, and I'd rather he not try on the off-chance that he missteps, and starts some kind of fandom firestorm. Best to let the man stick to what he enjoys doing.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue May 26, 2015 3:28 pm

I wonder what the reaction would be if Uub turns out to be gay.

LGBT is gaining visibility in popular games and shows. I mean, Mortal Kombat has its first gay character in Kung Jin, but he's not someone who goes off winking at men, wearing rainbow clothing/flags, and expressing open pride in his sexuality. It's just there; he is what he is, like any heterosexual. That's how it should be in any case. >_>;
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue May 26, 2015 3:31 pm

If something is good (which Dragon Ball is) it'll appeal to anyone and everyone (Which it does for the most part) without having to shoehorn something into its storyline that would specifically appeal to or attack a specific group of people.

And unless the villain wants to turn every man or woman on DB-Earth gay to appease his or her own sexual desires (I.E forcing people against their will), I don't see why promoting a villains orientation is necessary, if someone is evil and wants to blow up the world that has nothing to do with who they find attractive.

Topics like this always lead to snarky retorts among members of the forum with little to know real discussion being added by the original poster.. Almost like throwing a raw steak into a den of lions just because you'd think it'd be funny to see them fight each other.

There are plenty of Gay people who love Dragon Ball as is, there are plenty of gay people who love Goku and ChiChi as a couple or Vegeta and Bulma etc etc and like wise there are plenty of straight people ( girls mostly, from what I know) that love to see Future Trunks and Vegeta erotically caress each other. Big Deal
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Taku128 » Tue May 26, 2015 3:56 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:Seeing as people who are pro-homosexuality claim to be "open-minded" and "tolerant" we kind of can expect tolerance.
Having a shitty opinion is different from having a certain sexual or gender identity. Unlike being gay being an asshole is a choice, and hiding behind "Well scientifically homosexuality doesn't make any sense" doesn't make it any better. Being "intolerant" of people who are intolerant isn't intolerant, it's treating people how they treat others.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by clutchins » Tue May 26, 2015 4:08 pm

There are some people in this thread that really need to hide their power levels.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue May 26, 2015 4:10 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote: Seeing as genitalia is made for someone to have sex with the opposite gender, that throws the whole "homosexuality is natural" theory out the window. If homosexuality was truly natural and there was nothing wrong with it, then people most likely wouldn't be born with the body parts to reproduce with the opposite sex. Nothing in this world has definitive evidence homosexuality is normal--only society says it is. Science can't even say 100% (or anything even close) that it's normal and not a mental disorder.
Mother nature makes homosexuals, among ours and other species, at a small but stable & constant prevalence and the existance of homosexuals doesn't harm anyone in anyway. If you've got a problem with this concept argue with Mother Nature and convince her that your ideas why shouldn't homosexuality exist are better. Chances are she's not gonna care for "I don't like it because I don't like it" arguments. Nothing in this world has ever changed homosexuals despite all the attempts tried in modern era in particular, we've been here since recorded history, we're here now and we will always be here. If you can't explain why you want to deny us anything other people can have then it means you're simply irrational on the issue. You're of course entitled to that, but don't ask for your irrationality to be validated.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 26, 2015 4:10 pm

Dragon Ball discussions, or no discussions.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by sailorspazz » Tue May 26, 2015 4:11 pm

Appūru-sama wrote:A thread on queer characters and NO one mentions Whis? Really?

On a related note I think it's kinda cool gay characters in DB were relegated to shitty stereotypes (General Blue, Otokosuki) and now the strongest being in the universe(s) Whis in FABULOUS. Go Japan! (Maybe soon we'll get leading African American characters WITHOUT ridiculously oversized lips).
I thought about him, but in Dragon Ball the god-level characters tend to be treated as asexual. So even though he has effeminate speech patterns and mannerisms that might make him appear stereotypically gay, we only ever see him lusting after food, not men. But if the new series revealed that he is actually homosexual, I'm sure it would shock approximately no one :lol:
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by MagicBox » Tue May 26, 2015 4:21 pm

Doctor. wrote:I don't really think it's necessary.The only way we know some characters in the series are even straight is because they produced off-spring, and that wasn't even a crucial part of their characters but more-so to extend the cast. I don't know why it'd be necessary to introduce a homosexual or transsexual character into the series or turn one of the already existing characters into one.
Pretty much hits the nail on the head for me.

We don't even know the sexual orientations of the majority of the existing characters. Toriyama never made it a priority. He's already stated that he doesn't like romance, he doesn't like for his characters to feel anything, and he doesn't want the audience to feel anything. If he needs to extend the cast, then two of the characters will pair up and pop out a baby. But aside from that, unless it's being played for laughs (Muten Roshi being crazy horny for girls, Otoko-suki being crazy horny for guys, etc.), he simply doesn't care and neither should we. To focus on a character's sexual orientation (heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual) betrays the tone of "stupid, dumb fun."

Having heterosexual people in television is awesome (if done right). Having homosexual people in television is awesome (if done right). Having bisexual people in television is awesome (if done right). This simply isn't the kind of story for any of that.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue May 26, 2015 4:29 pm

MagicBox wrote:he doesn't like for his characters to feel anything, and he doesn't want the audience to feel anything
Not to be blunt but if this is TRULLY his attitude about it, he should not be in business of story telling. So I kinda doubt it's what he really thinks

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by MagicBox » Tue May 26, 2015 4:50 pm

Basaku wrote:
MagicBox wrote:he doesn't like for his characters to feel anything, and he doesn't want the audience to feel anything
Not to be blunt but if this is TRULLY his attitude about it, he should not be in business of story telling. So I kinda doubt it's what he really thinks
An excerpt from Akira Toriyama's dual interview with Masakazu Katsura regarding Sachie-chan Good!! (translated by Viz, located on their digital manga site):

Katsura: "When the original plot contains some humanistic elements, it sticks with you on an emotional level. So then you'd want to expend on it and make the story even better!"

Toriyama: "Listen, even I was thinking we can't go on for this many pages with no plot."

Katsura: "But when I try to add a moving scene you're vehemently against it."

Toriyama: "But then the readers will be moved!"

Katsura: "They're supposed to be moved!"

Obviously, he's persnickety about certain things, and he wants to entertain people, but he'll resist as hard as he possibly can when it comes to drawing anything emotionally deeper than surface level.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue May 26, 2015 5:02 pm

MagicBox wrote:
Obviously, he's persnickety about certain things, and he wants to entertain people, but he'll resist as hard as he possibly can when it comes to drawing anything emotionally deeper than surface level.
Well, the point is even he gets bored with no-plot course of the story himself. So I say we're safe, esp with long-running series format. And going back to the point, once again people are trying to railroad the topic by making it up as if asking for gay characters = asking for sprawling romance arcs. It's not and everyone knows it. No one's asking for anything more than Goku/Chi-Chi, Bulma/Vegeta or Videl/Gohan. Something that's not in the focus yet adds a flavour and layer to the story, characters, motivations and stakes overall. That or Kamesennin's long-lost pervy old gay brother.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DemonRin » Tue May 26, 2015 5:04 pm

Appūru-sama wrote:A thread on queer characters and NO one mentions Whis? Really?

On a related note I think it's kinda cool gay characters in DB were relegated to shitty stereotypes (General Blue, Otokosuki) and now the strongest being in the universe(s) Whis in FABULOUS. Go Japan! (Maybe soon we'll get leading African American characters WITHOUT ridiculously oversized lips).
I think it would be really cool if Whis were revealed to be gay.

Gay people who are fabulous and effeminate aren't a nonexistent thing, so making a gay character effeminate isn't inherently stereotyping, it's when it's played for laughs and/or they're treated like weaklings because of it. I think having a character like Whis who is categorically strong and awesome ALSO be effeminately gay would be a great thing.

General Blue is the example of how NOT to do it. He was revealed to be gay due in a joke, and then literally every reference to his sexuality from there on out is a joke at his expense. Especially the pedophilia thing Toei added (IIRC it was anime only)
MagicBox wrote:We don't even know the sexual orientations of the majority of the existing characters. Toriyama never made it a priority. He's already stated that he doesn't like romance, he doesn't like for his characters to feel anything, and he doesn't want the audience to feel anything. If he needs to extend the cast, then two of the characters will pair up and pop out a baby. But aside from that, unless it's being played for laughs (Muten Roshi being crazy horny for girls, Otoko-suki being crazy horny for guys, etc.), he simply doesn't care and neither should we. To focus on a character's sexual orientation (heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual) betrays the tone of "stupid, dumb fun."
Kamesen'in. He's a walking testament to heterosexual sexuality.

Characters who have stated romantic/sexual inclinations:

Goku, Chichi, Bulma, Yamucha, Oolong, Lunch, Kuririn, Kamesen'in, (Notice I've hit pretty much the entire primary cast of the original DB so far) Bulma's Parents, Vegeta, Cyborg 18, Mr. Satan, Gohan, Videl, Trunks and Mai.

The only members of our main "Z Fighter" cast that don't have noted romantic relationships or sexual activity are Piccolo (who is an alien who reproduces asexually) Tenshinhan, and Chaozu. Tenshinhan however, has a relationship with Lunch and the joke is that it's one sided, so you might be able to count that as something.

For a guy who "Doesn't like Romance" he sure went out of his way to make sure we knew every single one of these characters was interested in the opposite sex, even Goku has to have some inclination towards Chichi considering he fathered TWO Children.

I'm not saying this is evidence that there needs to be an LGBT character in Dragonball, but why is this just accepted as something that can be in the series without a problem, but the idea of there being a new character introduced who happens to be interested in the same sex for purposes OTHER than a punchline crosses some kind of line?
Last edited by DemonRin on Tue May 26, 2015 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue May 26, 2015 5:07 pm

A writer like Toriyama should not feel forced to conform to western political-narratives he doesnt identify with nor should he be pressured to write beyond what hes comfortable with. If you can identify with a character in a show to your beliefs of who the characters are to you, thats enough. They shouldnt need a neon sign telling you they are made for you. It being open to interpretation is far better from a creative standpoint than stereotypes being forced onto the character to conform to, so that the reader can decide for themselves how well recievable the interpretation of that type of character is. Even if its just very midly which leaves room for that subjectivity based on your definitions. I pretty much always assumed Zarbon & Whis were the pressumably gay characters of the show by personality; not sexuality - which for this kind of story, the cues are enough for you to nod but it shouldnt get in the way of their characterization within their roles in the in-universe.
DemonRin wrote:For a guy who "Doesn't like Romance" he sure went out of his way to make sure we knew every single one of these characters was interested in the opposite sex, even Goku has to have some inclination towards Chichi considering he fathered TWO Children.
Except there is nothing at all romatic in DB. Nothing at all really indecates Goku/Vegeta's relationships with their spouces to be among anything more than mating partners with somewhat significant identies to them. Beyond that, Goku and Vegeta have never done anything superfically projecting that they care about them outside of just that animal-like mating claim. Vegeta most spefically. Both of them barely understand human roles of traditional husband culture. But more on a writing point, Toriyama doesnt go farther than them just being together for the sake of offspring. Toriyama still doesnt care to even show Krillin x #18's marriage.
Where as a gay releationship would actually require showing the romance to show they're in a relationship because they can't just reproduce off screen.
DemonRin wrote:I'm not saying this is evidence that there needs to be an LGBT character in Dragonball, but why is this just accepted as something that can be in the series without a problem, but the idea of there being a new character introduced who happens to be interested in men for purposes OTHER than a punchline crosses some kind of line?
There doesnt need to be anything beyond a good story with characters we already have, and that right now is so minimal, I say demanding for depth beyond just basic coherency is too much to ask in this degree.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Tue May 26, 2015 6:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue May 26, 2015 5:22 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:A writer like Toriyama should not feel forced to conform to western political-narratives he doesnt identify with nor should he be pressured to write beyond what hes comfortable with. If you can identify with a character in a show to your beliefs of who the characters are to you, thats enough. They shouldnt need a neon sign telling you they are made for you. It being open to interpretation is far better from a creative standpoint than stereotypes being forced onto the character to conform to, so that the reader can decide for themselves how well recievable the interpretation of that type of character is. Anime in general already has a lot of arguably "trans"-characters in the medium, they just arent labelled by a politically-forced qouta, but by what the writer choses to present that character. There are a lot of characters that are androgynous or cross-dressing which to me abstractly enough fits that category, even if very midly which leaves room for that subjectivity based on your definitions. I pretty much always assumed Zarbon & Whis were the pressumably gay characters of the show by personality; not sexuality - which for this kind of story, the cues are enough for you to nod but it shouldnt get in the way of their characterization within their roles in the in-universe.
1. Oh please. Nobody's putting his feet to a fire, he will never read this forum or pretty much any other fan suggestions. This is all hypothetical discussion of "what ifs, how to do it, what was done in the past, other shows, what could happen" etc.

2. Gay people exist in Japan too and the country has its own ongoing debate on the issue which has a lot in common with the western debate as unsurprisingly gay people in Japan are not aliens from another planet compared to their western "brothers and sisters". Different cultures and history add a context and influence the discussion, but biologically we're talking the same trait.

3. Toriyama identifies and knows enough about western art, pop culture, history and multitude of other aspects as evidenced but the constant borrowing of imaginery, tropes and traits from western animation, propaganda pieces, history etc. If it's fair-game to have Berlin-parade leather daddy stereotype in DBZ, it's fair game to have 'average gay Joe' in DBS too. Different culture excuse doesn't work if used with double standards.

4. No it's not better from any creative standpoint to have gay characters be ambiguous about their sexuality or left widely up to the viewers' interpretation while all the straight characters are presented openly and blunty. That's simply a double standard and nothing else.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue May 26, 2015 5:49 pm

Romance is almost nonexistant in Dragon Ball. What little romantic stuff we see is either comic relief (Bulma and Yamcha's on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off relationship) just a means for a character to produce an offspring that becomes relevant to the plot later on. The sole exception was Krillin/Android 18 and maybe Gohan/Videl.

Like SingleFringe said, an author shouldn't feel obligated to include certain characters or plot elements. Just write what they want to write, and let the audience decide if they like it or not.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DemonRin » Tue May 26, 2015 5:51 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:Where as a gay releationship would actually require showing the romance to show they're in a relationship because they can't just reproduce off screen.
Uh.... no.... if that were the case, then why were Bulma and Yamucha stated to be a couple? When they started, they both wanted a relationship, that was their primary motivation at the start of the series. So why were they a couple? Why was them breaking up a thing that happens at the start of the Saiyan arc? It was even stated Yamucha cheated on her.
By your logic, that relationship shouldn't have happened at all unless having a kid was the end result.

See, the people railing against this seem to think that the second a respectfully portrayed gay character shows up, the show has to suddenly revolve around romance, because you're treating being gay like some foreign thing that's only about sex.

Mortal Kombat X recently included a VERY respectful and very subtle portrayal of a gay character in the form of Kung Jin. the lines referencing his sexuality are in the game, but they are subtle (he asks Raiden if he will ever be truly accepted because... and Raiden cuts him off and tells him that doesn't matter to be a champion of Earthrealm)
Other than that nod, he makes no sexual comments or references, that line was literally the only reference to him being gay (It was confirmed to be about him being gay by Netherrealm Studios on their Twitter) and that was it.

There's no reason Dragonball can't have a character who acts and is exactly like the entire cast we already have, but also happen to be gay.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue May 26, 2015 5:54 pm

DemonRin wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:Where as a gay releationship would actually require showing the romance to show they're in a relationship because they can't just reproduce off screen.
Uh.... no.... if that were the case, then why were Bulma and Yamucha stated to be a couple? When they started, they both wanted a relationship, that was their primary motivation at the start of the series. So why were they a couple? Why was them breaking up a thing that happens at the start of the Saiyan arc? It was even stated Yamucha cheated on her.
By your logic, that relationship shouldn't have happened at all unless having a kid was the end result.

See, the people railing against this seem to think that the second a respectfully portrayed gay character shows up, the show has to suddenly revolve around romance, because you're treating being gay like some foreign thing that's only about sex.
I can't speak for SingleFringe but my point is that it's expecting a lot from an author who doesn't give these things more than a second thought. If relationships in general are among the furthest things from his mind, I doubt introducing a progressive trans/homosexual pairing means anything either.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Tue May 26, 2015 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue May 26, 2015 5:54 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Romance is almost nonexistant in Dragon Ball. What little romantic stuff we see is either comic relief (Bulma and Yamcha's on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off relationship) just a means for a character to produce an offspring that becomes relevant to the plot later on. The sole exception was Krillin/Android 18 and maybe Gohan/Videl.
Like SingleFringe said, an author shouldn't feel obligated to include certain characters or plot elements. Just write what they want to write, and let the audience decide if they like it or not.
I thought my first comment sounded a bit rude though. What I meant to say is that, I don't think it should be expected for a writer to write on subjects or struggles in the lives of other social groups he has no referable experiences within. Not especially more so if he doesnt even write stories about that theme in the first place. Considering this being a new sudden change to western society, why should we assume DB would now be speficically modified to keep up with that area of all other types of social existance? If a gay character exists, then he exists, but people asking for it to be a revolutionary representation that accurately depicts their lives or amen's their own personal views doesnt seem reasonable.
Basaku wrote:3. Toriyama identifies and knows enough about western art, pop culture, history and multitude of other aspects as evidenced but the constant borrowing of imaginery, tropes and traits from western animation, propaganda pieces, history etc. If it's fair-game to have Berlin-parade leather daddy stereotype in DBZ, it's fair game to have 'average gay Joe' in DBS too. Different culture excuse doesn't work if used with double standards.

Most of Japan only know the memes of western culture imports, not the movement, history or direction's expansion. Why would you expect them to suddenly be an expert on it now? Hes a gag writer.
DemonRin wrote:Uh.... no.... if that were the case, then why were Bulma and Yamucha stated to be a couple? When they started, they both wanted a relationship, that was their primary motivation at the start of the series. So why were they a couple? Why was them breaking up a thing that happens at the start of the Saiyan arc? It was even stated Yamucha cheated on her.
Their character roles changed through these subplot devices. It was also necessary for Bulma's development as she needed to become a mother later which matured her character & grounded a reason for Trunks to exist.
DemonRin wrote:By your logic, that relationship shouldn't have happened at all unless having a kid was the end result.
That is not even what I said. The only reason Goku and Vegeta got married was so that they could have kids written in later. All of the sex-less relationships in the show never goes anywhere anyway because nothing come out of it, without the requirement of romance Toriyama doesnt write.
DemonRin wrote:See, the people railing against this seem to think that the second a respectfully portrayed gay character shows up, the show has to suddenly revolve around romance, because you're treating being gay like some foreign thing that's only about sex.
What else is there in being gay that is unromantically related?
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Tue May 26, 2015 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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