Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

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Dbzejo
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Dbzejo » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:21 am

Captain Space wrote:
Dbzejo wrote:No... Just, no... We had Blue and Zarbon and thats enough...
I...don't really understand what you're saying here.
We dont need these kind of characters... I have nothing against them, that is just my opinion...

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:25 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Whis' ki should be rainbow.
Why? I understand that Whis seems quite effeminate, but doesn't that seem a little over the top?
I like over-the-top. <3
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Well maybe he can have one rainbow colored attack then, like Gogeta's in movie 12.
I want this too.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:57 am

Wouldn't that just bring unnecessary attention to Whis' (potential) sexuality? :/

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:16 am

DemonRin wrote:Whis, if he is indeed gay, would be the first 100% respectful portrayal of one, at least so far.
With the femminine manerisms? Yeah not really. He's also part of the villain faction. When it's someone in Uub/Goten/Pan category, then we could say there are no stereotypes in play.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:37 am

There are always going to be stereotypes, lol. Having a delicate-looking gay character with feminine mannerisms is just as stereotypical as gay character who's super buff.

Whis is probably the most likable villain out of Dragon Ball, with Pilaf and Beerus being the only real competition, he's also Goku and Vegeta's teacher later on, and the strongest character we've met so far. I'm not sure how he's not a respectable portrayal in any way, no character is perfect, if we're going to nitpick, then no character in any medium is a "respectable" portrayal of a homosexual.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:43 am

Doctor. wrote:There are always going to be stereotypes, lol. Having a delicate-looking gay character with feminine mannerisms is just as stereotypical as gay character who's super buff.

Whis is probably the most likable villain out of Dragon Ball, with Pilaf and Beerus being the only real competition, he's also Goku and Vegeta's teacher later on, and the strongest character we've met so far. I'm not sure how he's not a respectable portrayal in any way, no character is perfect, if we're going to nitpick, then no character in any medium is a "respectable" portrayal of a homosexual.
Ohh please. Girly/feminnine (or more derogative term "fruity") is one of the oldest, negative and perpetuated stereotypes about gay men and everyone knows it.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:48 am

You missed his point.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:53 am

Yes, "oldest", you said it correctly. When Whis was thought to be straight (or asexual), he wasn't looked down upon by anyone for being an effeminate character. Not by Toriyama, not by Toei, not by the characters in the series, not by the fans.

So why would it be any different now? Whis being effeminate was a trait that defined his character before. Why should it suddenly be a problem now, just because he was revealed to (possibly) be gay? Yes, it's a stereotype, but anything can be. Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.

You're looking down on everything the character is and stands for just because one stereotype, that's not even being used in a negative way, is a part of his personality.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:18 am

Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
As opposed to the points before this, where nobody wanted to put gay characters in shows? Same effect, new excuse.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:28 am

Rocketman wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
As opposed to the points before this, where nobody wanted to put gay characters in shows? Same effect, new excuse.
Before this, people put gay characters in shows to purposefully make them look bad though.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:43 am

Odd that "purposefully look bad" looks the same as "respectful", innit?

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:47 am

Rocketman wrote:Odd that "purposefully look bad" looks the same as "respectful", innit?
You are fishing and clouding the issue. The point is that there's really nothing disrespectful about Whis except when people are reaching for it. And when people are reaching, they find faults in practically anything, doesn't really matter if it's about the portrayal of gay people or any other subject.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by irreality » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:02 am

Whis is well dressed, respectful, and has manners, and has high cheekbones and delicate features. If this is considered a negative portrayal, I don't want to see a positive one. Androgyny is not the same as being effeminate. Manners and subservience are also not bad traits, despite the brashness and rudeness of most Dragon Ball characters (male or female).

He isn't lisping, sassing people out, or has strange mannerisms. He isn't acting like an airhead. He isn't being a stereotype of a twink or a dandy.

I don't know if he is gay or not, but I don't think there is anything negative about his portrayal. He controls one of the most powerful beings in the universe from going on a destruction rampage, while still being morally ambiguous himself. That is a pretty awesome character, gay or straight.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:22 am

Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
Just another excuse not to put LGBT characters in. Everyone knows most popular, tired and at-this-point boring stereotypes, it does not cost anything or take any effort to be able to restrain yourself from making a gay character effiminate, or at the very least providing some counterpart. Sailor Moon has effiminate gay guys and butch lesbians 20 years ago and yet people don't complain 'cause there were also masculine gay guys and feminine lesbians in the show and everyone knew Takeuchi wasn't just resorting to the stereotypes for kicks or because she had a banal/uneducated outlook on people. Toriyama and Dragon Ball? Forgive me if an effiminate gay guy 20 years after Nazi-gay parody and leather-daddy stereotype raises my eyebrow.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:26 am

Basaku wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Entertainment has gotten to the point where nobody wants to put gay characters in shows because they'll be nitpicked to death to find something wrong with their portrayal.
Just another excuse not to put LGBT characters in. Everyone knows most popular, tired and at-this-point boring stereotypes, it does not cost anything or take any effort to be able to restrain yourself from making a gay character effiminate, or at the very least providing some counterpart. Sailor Moon has effiminate gay guys and butch lesbians 20 years ago and yet people don't complain 'cause there were also masculine gay guys and feminine lesbians in the show and everyone knew Takeuchi wasn't just resorting to the stereotypes for kicks or because she had a banal/uneducated outlook on people. Toriyama and Dragon Ball? Forgive me if an effiminate gay guy 20 years after Nazi-gay parody and leather-daddy stereotype raises my eyebrow.
You could raise your eyebrow if Whis was being used in the same manner as those two characters: for comedy in a way that's offensive to homosexual people. He's not, he's being one of the more likable and interesting of Toriyama's new characters and is quickly becoming a fan favorite.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:28 am

Basaku wrote:...
You continued to miss his point.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:48 am

Doctor. wrote:You could raise your eyebrow if Whis was being used in the same manner as those two characters: for comedy in a way that's offensive to homosexual people. He's not, he's being one of the more likable and interesting of Toriyama's new characters and is quickly becoming a fan favorite.
Effiminate stereotype repeated over and over again gets irritating and yes it will feel offensive if it's the only way we're being portrayed. Just as Whis (if he's gay) is nowhere near as bad as Blue/Otokosuki, it also doesn't mean he automatically becomes 100% respectful portrayal and "we" should instantly shut up and don't question anything.
rereboy wrote:You continued to miss his point.
That's been your job in this thread. Carry on.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Captain Space » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:06 pm

Debate good. Strong disagreement/opinion fine. Ad hominem less good.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DemonRin » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:12 pm

Basaku wrote:Effiminate stereotype repeated over and over again gets irritating and yes it will feel offensive if it's the only way we're being portrayed. Just as Whis (if he's gay) is nowhere near as bad as Blue/Otokosuki, it also doesn't mean he automatically becomes 100% respectful portrayal and "we" should instantly shut up and don't question anything.
Maybe seeing that he wasn't a Blue/Otokosuki level of offensive made me overreact when I said "100% respectful". Maybe a better way to say it would be "Whis might be DBs first Gay Character who's Gayness isn't entirely there for the sake of a punchline".
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:08 pm

rereboy wrote:The point is that there's really nothing disrespectful about Whis except when people are reaching for it. And when people are reaching, they find faults in practically anything, doesn't really matter if it's about the portrayal of gay people or any other subject.
"Things are only offensive if people take offense to them and their offense is approved by me. Any unapproved offense is 'reaching' and therefore invalid."

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