Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon May 25, 2015 4:57 pm

I really do hope Otokosuki makes some appearances in Super. He actually appeared recently in that SD manga.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by MarCas92 » Mon May 25, 2015 5:02 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:I really do hope Otokosuki makes some appearances in Super. He actually appeared recently in that SD manga.
Otokosuki is pure of heart!

But I don't know if I want to see more of him outside of a cameo. He was basically just a joke character. Toriyama's track record with joke characters isn't really a good one. They either: appea,r make funny then disappear, or if they stay on then they usually end up adding very little, similar to Launch.

He's pretty much the equivalent of Bacterian, just replace "disgusting" with "gay". Wow, that sentence was really close to being really homophobic....
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Thanos » Mon May 25, 2015 5:47 pm

I'm not entirely sure, outside of tired stereotypes, how including such characters is of any value. The only clue, to my recollection, of Zarbon's supposed homosexuality is his appearance. I don't remember any scenes of him engaging sexually/romantically with any other guys in the series, but maybe I'm forgetting something. Now clearly the bear-looking guy who flirts with Trunks is gay, but anything short of that, to me, is superfluous. I'm not trying to be overly PC here, but if we're going to try to imply there's some type of noble, humanist message in the inclusion of such stereotypical characters, I'm not seeing it. I guarantee these characters were included, in ernest, because Toriyama thought it would be funny. Nothing more, nothing less.

If an otherwise "normal" character ended up being gay, like... I dunno, Tao Pai Pai, for example, that would be one thing.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Mon May 25, 2015 5:56 pm

clutchins wrote:I know I don't have to qualify my opinion in any way, but being bisexual myself, a sexuality which is often swept under the rug, I am happy watching or reading Dragon Ball and do not feel the need to ask Toriyama to add any characters that reflect my own sexuality or other identifying traits. It's a martial arts story, for pete's sake.
Half of your sexuality is already getting "reflected" in DB with various pairings such as Vegeta/Bulma, Videl/Gohan or even Kamesennin's antics or did you forget? :think:

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Super Sonic » Mon May 25, 2015 6:12 pm

With Zarbon I never got a gay vibe from him? Is it because his Kai voice actor is openly homosexual, people are calling him gay, kinda like folks calling Haku from Naruto black due to his voice actor?

As for the topic, I think folks might be afraid to do so out of fear of offending someone. Kinda like how 80s cartoons couldn't really have black villains, something like that I see happening.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by MarCas92 » Mon May 25, 2015 6:17 pm

Super Sonic wrote: As for the topic, I think folks might be afraid to do so out of fear of offending someone. Kinda like how 80s cartoons couldn't really have black villains, something like that I see happening.
Well, Dragon Ball had Staff Officer Black. But, I see your point.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Super Sonic » Mon May 25, 2015 6:28 pm

MarCas92 wrote:
Super Sonic wrote: As for the topic, I think folks might be afraid to do so out of fear of offending someone. Kinda like how 80s cartoons couldn't really have black villains, something like that I see happening.
Well, Dragon Ball had Staff Officer Black. But, I see your point.
I was referring to American cartoons. So if you wondered why Baxter Stockman was white in the old TMNT cartoon, and black everywhere else, that's why. Also read they originally wanted to make Jetta on Jem black, but higher-ups said no for that reason, so she was made British.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon May 25, 2015 7:38 pm

Bullza wrote:
Do you think it's time Toriyama became more progressive and introduce villains such as these.
No that'd be an horrendous idea. Goku going to high school in Evolution horrendous.

Nobody watches DBZ and thinks "This is a really good and kick ass show but it'd be better if the villain had both male and female genitals."

Keep all of that nonsense out of the series it'd do a lot more harm than good.
Well a lot of villains have no genitalia whatsoever... so that's sort of a compromise.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 7:47 pm

MarCas92 wrote:What are Japan's views on sexuality? I know the rise of asexuals is higher than ever, but what about others (trans/bi/gay)? I think that's an important question to ask when thinking about this.
Gay "marriage" is illegal in Japan (thankfully).
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Mon May 25, 2015 7:53 pm

Zenkai wrote:
MarCas92 wrote:What are Japan's views on sexuality? I know the rise of asexuals is higher than ever, but what about others (trans/bi/gay)? I think that's an important question to ask when thinking about this.
Gay "marriage" is illegal in Japan (thankfully).
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by MarCas92 » Mon May 25, 2015 7:54 pm

Zenkai wrote:(thankfully).
Whether or not I agree with you. This is not the place to be saying stuff like this. Keep comments like that to yourself. That is not what this board is for.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 7:55 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:I really do hope Otokosuki makes some appearances in Super. He actually appeared recently in that SD manga.
He is also in the first episode of GT. He works in Trunks' office and was checking him out as he walked in.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 7:58 pm

MarCas92 wrote:
Zenkai wrote:(thankfully).
Whether or not I agree with you. This is not the place to be saying stuff like this. Keep comments like that to yourself. That is not what this board is for.
Others are voicing their apparent support of the homosexual lifestyle, so I can voice my disapproval of it. This thread is about homosexual/transgender characters, after all. Also, you did ask about Japan's views, so I gave you some info.
Last edited by Zenkai on Mon May 25, 2015 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Freeza Heika » Mon May 25, 2015 7:59 pm

MarCas92 wrote:What are Japan's views on sexuality? I know the rise of asexuals is higher than ever, but what about others (trans/bi/gay)? I think that's an important question to ask when thinking about this.

"Japanese citizens are reportedly divided on the issue of accepting homosexuality, with a recent poll indicating that 54 percent agreed that homosexuality should be accepted by society whilst 36 percent disagreed, with a big age gap."

"A law allowing transgender individuals to change their legal gender post-sex reassignment surgery was passed in 2008. Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is banned in certain cities."
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Zenkai wrote:
MarCas92 wrote:
Zenkai wrote:(thankfully).
Whether or not I agree with you. This is not the place to be saying stuff like this. Keep comments like that to yourself. That is not what this board is for.
Others are voicing their apparent support of the homosexual lifestyle, so I can voice my disapproval of it. This thread is about homosexual/transgender chatacters, after all.
Exactly. it is about homosexual/transgender characters, not those things as concepts and not what you think of those concepts.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Rocketman » Mon May 25, 2015 8:28 pm

It's something of a contradiction, because sexuality/gender issues are private matters, so to include them in a story (that's not about such matters) you have to be rather blatant about it. But then the usual moral is that such differences don't really matter and treat everybody like people or such, so you have to make a big deal of it to preach about how it's not a big deal.

Plus, the existence of magic rather trivializes things. Even if transgenderism was a thing in the DB world, all it'd take is a wish to Shenron and bam, problem solved.

Plus, given General Blue and whatshisname's portrayals...I don't think it's a topic DB should broach.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by MarCas92 » Mon May 25, 2015 8:35 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Plus, given General Blue and whatshisname's portrayals...I don't think it's a topic DB should broach.
Do you find them offensive or just badly written? Otokosuki I get since he's just one big stereotype and isn't interesting. But Blue? I personally find him one of the funnest characters in Dragon Ball. If it wasn't for Tao Pai Pai, he'd be my favorite villain in that show. I think his homosexuality adds to his character, in a way being a parody of stereotypical German Nazis (blonde hair/blue eyes/clean and tidy/psychic powers).
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 25, 2015 8:36 pm

Zenkai wrote:Gay "marriage" is illegal in Japan (thankfully).
There is no discussion to be had on this matter: bigoted assholery is not accepted here, so take your bigoted assholery elsewhere.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Kid Buu » Mon May 25, 2015 9:12 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote: Honestly, there are only a few characters off the top of my head who actually have their sexuality as components of their characters: Blooma, who is man-crazy. Yamucha, who longs to get married. Kuririn, who starts off a horny little bastard and later adopts the same mentality as Yamucha. Kame'sennin and Oolong, who are lecherous. Lunch, who randomly expresses attraction towards Tenshinhan. Goten, who apparently likes to date by the end of the series. Neither Yamucha nor Blooma could be gay unless you changed the sex of one of them, since it's their heterosexuality that drives the plot of the first arc. Kuririn could be, but then his relationship with #18 couldn't happen. Lunch is probably the likeliest candidate. Actually, come to think of it, that's not as short of a list as I first assumed...
I wouldn't say these events would be impossible to push a character as as gay/bisexual. Plenty of people have been in heterosexual relationships before coming out of the closet. For example, I could see a storyline where Kuririn is gay and wanted to get married to masquerade it. Although it'd be pretty hard to fit in the context of a series where relationships are treated as an afterthought and fighting is the main priority.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Mon May 25, 2015 9:16 pm

Rocketman wrote:It's something of a contradiction, because sexuality/gender issues are private matters, so to include them in a story (that's not about such matters) you have to be rather blatant about it.
About as blatant as Gohan and Videl holding hands or Chi-Chi kissing Goku. We could of course also go into Kamesennin's "zone" and it would be perfectly appropirate for a Dragon Ball show.
Rocketman wrote:so you have to make a big deal of it to preach about how it's not a big deal.
Or you treat it like it's a no big deal and the same message gets sent.
MarCas92 wrote: Do you find them offensive or just badly written? Otokosuki I get since he's just one big stereotype and isn't interesting. But Blue? I personally find him one of the funnest characters in Dragon Ball. If it wasn't for Tao Pai Pai, he'd be my favorite villain in that show. I think his homosexuality adds to his character, in a way being a parody of stereotypical German Nazis (blonde hair/blue eyes/clean and tidy/psychic powers).
Ho exactly gay Nazi villain is suppoused to pass as not offensive? :crazy:
Last edited by Basaku on Mon May 25, 2015 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by clutchins » Mon May 25, 2015 9:16 pm

Basaku wrote:
clutchins wrote:I know I don't have to qualify my opinion in any way, but being bisexual myself, a sexuality which is often swept under the rug, I am happy watching or reading Dragon Ball and do not feel the need to ask Toriyama to add any characters that reflect my own sexuality or other identifying traits. It's a martial arts story, for pete's sake.
Half of your sexuality is already getting "reflected" in DB with various pairings such as Vegeta/Bulma, Videl/Gohan or even Kamesennin's antics or did you forget? :think:
No I didn't forget that I like women as well, but that shouldn't matter. What do you mean by "half?" My entire sexuality is not represented in the show. When did one of those characters ever hit on another character of the same sex?
And to repeat my final point, it's a martial arts shonen show. This isn't some slice of life rom-com with a high school setting (Saiyaman notwithstanding). I don't expect there to be any depth in romance among any two characters, let alone any gay or lesbian or bisexual characters.

Also keep in mind that Dragon Ball is the product of a different time when this conversation was not even being had. Even 20 and 30 years ago gays and lesbians were not part of the cultural zeitgeist as they are today (and certainly not bisexuals!)
Zenkai wrote:
MarCas92 wrote:What are Japan's views on sexuality? I know the rise of asexuals is higher than ever, but what about others (trans/bi/gay)? I think that's an important question to ask when thinking about this.
Gay "marriage" is illegal in Japan (thankfully).
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