Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Alex9196
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Austria

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Alex9196 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:29 pm

i found blue stupid because of his mouse phobia and the guy from the uub tournament creeped even me out.
as i watched the series i didnt even recognise blue as a gay person until later my neighbour pointed it out.

User avatar
DemonRin
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1385
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 am
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DemonRin » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:24 pm

Alex9196 wrote:i found blue stupid because of his mouse phobia and the guy from the uub tournament creeped even me out.
as i watched the series i didnt even recognise blue as a gay person until later my neighbour pointed it out.
That's kindof the point we're making.

Blue overall appears to be a decent portrayal in the Manga. It's barely stated that he's gay, however, when he is it's all in aid of a joke (IE: The only reason he wouldn't be interested in Bluma was that he was gay, and haha! Turns out he really IS gay! Cue audience laughter)
But the anime made it so much worse by adding in filler of him being attracted to a little boy. (In reality, Obotchaman is a Robot, but A: He looks like a little boy in all respects, and B: Blue didn't know he was a Robot when he hit on him)

Otokosuki's entire character is one big "Aren't gay people icky?" Joke. He's big and burly, dresses like one of the Village People, and makes unwanted sexual advances towards Trunks, which Trunks is clearly uncomfortable about.
You were supposed to "Sympathize" with Trunks in that scene which is why it creeped you out. It's the age old "Every gay guy is going to hit on you and make you uncomfortable" Stereotype.

His name even means literally "Man Love" and is slang for someone being "Crazy for Men" in Japan.
"FUNi should take [DBZ] out behind the woodshed, give it one last treat, then blow its f%#@$ng brains out before it attacks the baby again." ~Rocketman

User avatar
Dbzejo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:21 am

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Dbzejo » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:30 pm

Whis is awesome, one of the best characters in the series, i dont care if he is gay or not ...

User avatar
Captain Space
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Captain Space » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:45 pm

Dbzejo wrote:Whis is awesome, one of the best characters in the series, i dont care if he is gay or not ...
Absolutely. That's kind of why I think he's also a great example of this. The fact that he might be gay/bi/whatever doesn't affect his coolness one way or the other. It's just a...thing, like him maybe being an anime fan (in BoG, anyway).
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:46 pm

Captain Space wrote:
Dbzejo wrote:Whis is awesome, one of the best characters in the series, i dont care if he is gay or not ...
Absolutely. That's kind of why I think he's also a great example of this. The fact that he might be gay/bi/whatever doesn't affect his coolness one way or the other. It's just a...thing, like him maybe being an anime fan (in BoG, anyway).
Isn't Beerus the anime fan?

User avatar
Captain Space
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Captain Space » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:49 pm

Doctor. wrote: Isn't Beerus the anime fan?
Different versions of the same scene, both talking about it taking nearly half an hour to get to Kaio's planet.

In BoG, Whis says "I'll only have time to watch one episode of anime." Implying he's a fan.

In Super, Beerus says "You could watch a whole anime episode in that time!" Which is just making a time comparison to something, though it could also mean he's a fan since he knows how long the episodes are.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama

Alex9196
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Austria

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Alex9196 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:59 pm

DemonRin wrote:
Alex9196 wrote:i found blue stupid because of his mouse phobia and the guy from the uub tournament creeped even me out.
as i watched the series i didnt even recognise blue as a gay person until later my neighbour pointed it out.
That's kindof the point we're making.

Blue overall appears to be a decent portrayal in the Manga. It's barely stated that he's gay, however, when he is it's all in aid of a joke (IE: The only reason he wouldn't be interested in Bluma was that he was gay, and haha! Turns out he really IS gay! Cue audience laughter)
But the anime made it so much worse by adding in filler of him being attracted to a little boy. (In reality, Obotchaman is a Robot, but A: He looks like a little boy in all respects, and B: Blue didn't know he was a Robot when he hit on him)

Otokosuki's entire character is one big "Aren't gay people icky?" Joke. He's big and burly, dresses like one of the Village People, and makes unwanted sexual advances towards Trunks, which Trunks is clearly uncomfortable about.
You were supposed to "Sympathize" with Trunks in that scene which is why it creeped you out. It's the age old "Every gay guy is going to hit on you and make you uncomfortable" Stereotype.

His name even means literally "Man Love" and is slang for someone being "Crazy for Men" in Japan.
i watched the anime but like i said didnt really see that he was gay and i remember there was a scene where he was nice to a boy or something but i never viewed it as "hitting on him".

however the guy from the uub tournament is the last person i wanna be matched up with in a tournament.

i womder what goku or vegeta would have done if he would have hitten on them. but i am glad we didnt see it.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:13 pm

Captain Space wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Isn't Beerus the anime fan?
Different versions of the same scene, both talking about it taking nearly half an hour to get to Kaio's planet.

In BoG, Whis says "I'll only have time to watch one episode of anime." Implying he's a fan.

In Super, Beerus says "You could watch a whole anime episode in that time!" Which is just making a time comparison to something, though it could also mean he's a fan since he knows how long the episodes are.
I'm pretty sure it was Beerus that said that in both versions.

Alex9196
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Austria

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Alex9196 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:15 pm

it was whis in bog, i am 99% sure, but doesnt matter

User avatar
Captain Space
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Captain Space » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:20 pm

Alex9196 wrote:it was whis in bog, i am 99% sure, but doesnt matter
Yeah, pretty much. I'm pretty sure it was Whis in the movie...
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:05 pm

It was Beerus. It doesn't really matter, but people were "complaining" about them re-using BoG lines in Super, so they wouldn't change one character's line to make it another one's line.

User avatar
Captain Space
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Captain Space » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:52 pm

...weird. My memory was very clear on that.

Huh.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama

User avatar
DemonRin
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1385
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 am
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by DemonRin » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:22 pm

Alex9196 wrote:i watched the anime but like i said didnt really see that he was gay and i remember there was a scene where he was nice to a boy or something but i never viewed it as "hitting on him".
Did you watch the Dub? You probably watched the dub.

ALL references to Blue's gayness were removed from the dub. Maybe to distance it from the pedophillia issue.

In the dub, when Bulma goes "Wait, you're gay aren't you!!" and then he gets flustered they changed the line to "I.... I Know Sumo!!!" with the flustered being changed to him calling her out for obviously not knowing Sumo.
The little boy scene was changed so that his infatuation was brotherly, claiming Obatchan was his "Long lost brother" and the lovey eyes was because he missed him.
"FUNi should take [DBZ] out behind the woodshed, give it one last treat, then blow its f%#@$ng brains out before it attacks the baby again." ~Rocketman

Alex9196
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Austria

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Alex9196 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:43 pm

i watched the german dub, since i am from austria. i dont really know how it was handled there since i saw db only once and read its manga counterpart once. but it doesnt really matter. i am not very good at recognising sexual scenes if their are not straight up smashed in front of me. like i said i didnt notice blue, i realised he has a strange phobia that he turned bulma down but thats about it.

User avatar
Super Sonic
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5008
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:45 pm

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Super Sonic » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:20 pm

DemonRin wrote:
Alex9196 wrote:i watched the anime but like i said didnt really see that he was gay and i remember there was a scene where he was nice to a boy or something but i never viewed it as "hitting on him".
Did you watch the Dub? You probably watched the dub.

ALL references to Blue's gayness were removed from the dub. Maybe to distance it from the pedophillia issue.

In the dub, when Bulma goes "Wait, you're gay aren't you!!" and then he gets flustered they changed the line to "I.... I Know Sumo!!!" with the flustered being changed to him calling her out for obviously not knowing Sumo.
The little boy scene was changed so that his infatuation was brotherly, claiming Obatchan was his "Long lost brother" and the lovey eyes was because he missed him.
It wasn't entirely taken out. They just did it more subtly. And Sonny Strait's performance was rather flaming in a way that was "hint hint, wink wink". Older guys would've gotten it, while kids might have missed it.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6017
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:37 am

Basaku wrote:
Doctor. wrote:You could raise your eyebrow if Whis was being used in the same manner as those two characters: for comedy in a way that's offensive to homosexual people. He's not, he's being one of the more likable and interesting of Toriyama's new characters and is quickly becoming a fan favorite.
Effiminate stereotype repeated over and over again gets irritating and yes it will feel offensive if it's the only way we're being portrayed. Just as Whis (if he's gay) is nowhere near as bad as Blue/Otokosuki, it also doesn't mean he automatically becomes 100% respectful portrayal and "we" should instantly shut up and don't question anything.
What if it turns out he's not gay? Would you still be offended?
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Basaku
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:00 pm
Location: Planet of the Apes

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:25 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: What if it turns out he's not gay? Would you still be offended?
Why are you looking for a "Of course I would be equally offended" answer? Sorry but does it really have to be explained how gay male characters & straight male characters have been predominantely portrayed in art/entertainment/culture throughout decades and which portrayal is the negative, tired & boring stereotype to which group? :eh:

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5142
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:43 am

Whis' feminine mannerisms are not used for the sake of some sort of punchline, nor are they constantly put on display (disregarding the Spanish version...lol). His sexuality is not thrown in the audience's face either. He is a respectable character. I mean, the guy is an incredibly wise martial arts master, maintains a serious disposition when the situation calls for it, and happens to be the strongest in universe 7... in a show about fighting!

If someone gets offended by a character with an ambiguous sexuality because he's "effeminate," I can't imagine what thoughts will race through their heads if they visit the east village of NYC, which, incidentally, I was at today with my gay friend. A vast majority of non-closeted homosexuals happen to display feminine mannerisms, inadvertently or not, and many dress flamboyantly (in the stylish sense). >_>

When I compare Whis to a character like, say, Kung Jin from MKX, I don't see one as more disrespectful than the other. They both show two sides of the spectrum without being there for the sake of being the butt of jokes.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

Alex9196
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Austria

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Alex9196 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:16 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:Whis' feminine mannerisms are not used for the sake of some sort of punchline, nor are they constantly put on display (disregarding the Spanish version...lol). His sexuality is not thrown in the audience's face either. He is a respectable character. I mean, the guy is an incredibly wise martial arts master, maintains a serious disposition when the situation calls for it, and happens to be the strongest in universe 7... in a show about fighting!

If someone gets offended by a character with an ambiguous sexuality because he's "effeminate," I can't imagine what thoughts will race through their heads if they visit the east village of NYC, which, incidentally, I was at today with my gay friend. A vast majority of non-closeted homosexuals happen to display feminine mannerisms, inadvertently or not, and many dress flamboyantly (in the stylish sense). >_>

When I compare Whis to a character like, say, Kung Jin from MKX, I don't see one as more disrespectful than the other. They both show two sides of the spectrum without being there for the sake of being the butt of jokes.
I have to admit after seeing FnF i like Whis even more. And besides Super episode 3, there isn't even a clue that he is gay.
And also, Whis is a completely other race than Beerus.

User avatar
Basaku
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:00 pm
Location: Planet of the Apes

Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:29 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:If someone gets offended by a character with an ambiguous sexuality because he's "effeminate," I can't imagine what thoughts will race through their heads if they visit the east village of NYC, which, incidentally, I was at today with my gay friend. A vast majority of non-closeted homosexuals happen to display feminine mannerisms, inadvertently or not, and many dress flamboyantly (in the stylish sense). >_>
Anecdotal evidence based on your selective 'sightseeing'...?
fadeddreams5 wrote:Whis' feminine mannerisms are not used for the sake of some sort of punchline, nor are they constantly put on display (disregarding the Spanish version...lol). His sexuality is not thrown in the audience's face either. He is a respectable character. I mean, the guy is an incredibly wise martial arts master, maintains a serious disposition when the situation calls for it, and happens to be the strongest in universe 7... in a show about fighting!

When I compare Whis to a character like, say, Kung Jin from MKX, I don't see one as more disrespectful than the other. They both show two sides of the spectrum without being there for the sake of being the butt of jokes.
The problem is that Toriyama doesn't seem to understand there are both sides of the spectrum and draws from "gay stereotype catalogue" with each. Again, it's hardly a discussion with Sailor Moon where Takeuchi had masculine lesbian next to feminnine lesbian, same with gay guys and even trans characters. That's not the case here. Just because Whis is (potentially) not there just for kicks and lulz like the previous two doesn't change the fact that he adds to impression that gay characters in DB universe simply have to be stereotypical in some way or another for some inexplicable reason.

Post Reply