Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

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rereboy
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:45 am

There will always be problems to be found with any depictions. That's what happens when people are reaching for it. Even if there's nothing wrong in the present, there's always the past to use as an argument.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:58 am

rereboy wrote:You will just find problem with any depictions. That's what happens when people are reaching for it. Even if there's nothing wrong in the present, there's always the past to use as an argument.
Anything and everything is a good argument for you to argue in on this subject, including the good old "you will never be happy with any portrayal!". We've been through that, I brought in specific examples of other mainstream anime having masculine lesbians and femminine gay guys and why it ain't a problem there and the LGBT community doesn't question Takeuchi's motivations. Of course you ignored that and repeated "you can never be satisfied".

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by rereboy » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:06 am

Basaku wrote:Anything and everything is a good argument for you to argue in on this subject
My interventions in this topic have been just these three points:

- my doubts about dragon ball managing to include a character like in a way that that would seem seamless and without it feeling like agenda to me;
- answering the criticisms some users have made regarding my first point, trying to explain it;
- and saying that, after seeing more of Whis, I actually think they managed to include a character like that that seems seamless and doesn't feel like agenda, so it's good work, imo.

So, no, I don't see how anything is a good argument for me or whatever else you are implying, especially since I even started by having doubts that it could be done in a satisfying way and later on my doubts are dispelled. I think that description is more fitting for you but hey, what do I know, right?

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:45 am

Alex9196 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Whis' feminine mannerisms are not used for the sake of some sort of punchline, nor are they constantly put on display (disregarding the Spanish version...lol). His sexuality is not thrown in the audience's face either. He is a respectable character. I mean, the guy is an incredibly wise martial arts master, maintains a serious disposition when the situation calls for it, and happens to be the strongest in universe 7... in a show about fighting!

If someone gets offended by a character with an ambiguous sexuality because he's "effeminate," I can't imagine what thoughts will race through their heads if they visit the east village of NYC, which, incidentally, I was at today with my gay friend. A vast majority of non-closeted homosexuals happen to display feminine mannerisms, inadvertently or not, and many dress flamboyantly (in the stylish sense). >_>

When I compare Whis to a character like, say, Kung Jin from MKX, I don't see one as more disrespectful than the other. They both show two sides of the spectrum without being there for the sake of being the butt of jokes.
I have to admit after seeing FnF i like Whis even more. And besides Super episode 3, there isn't even a clue that he is gay.
And also, Whis is a completely other race than Beerus.
Well that's not unprecedented, you have Tarble and his wife for example...
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:35 am

Anecdotal evidence based on your selective 'sightseeing'...?
Technically, it's anecdotal. I don't think it's possible to research or meet every gay person in the world. I should not have generalized that. It does so happen, however, that the homosexuals that stand out the most display those transparent/feminine qualities (nothing over-the-top), and there are many, many of them, at least where I come from. I've met several much less transparent gay people too, but even then, it's pretty detectable once I talk to them. Maybe I have a sixth sense. lol. But yeah, I'm just basing that on personal experience on and offline. It's why I have no issue with Whis, who isn't one of those "HellooOOOooOOOOOooO" sort of characters that shove their sexuality down the audience's throat.

That said...
The problem is that Toriyama doesn't seem to understand there are both sides of the spectrum and draws from "gay stereotype catalogue" with each. Again, it's hardly a discussion with Sailor Moon where Takeuchi had masculine lesbian next to feminnine lesbian, same with gay guys and even trans characters. That's not the case here. Just because Whis is (potentially) not there just for kicks and lulz like the previous two doesn't change the fact that he adds to impression that gay characters in DB universe simply have to be stereotypical in some way or another for some inexplicable reason.
...I totally get what you're saying. So basically, if Uub, for example, happened to be gay, but it isn't implied at all until there happens to be a scene at the very end of the series/saga where he's seen with a male partner or something.
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:51 am

- my doubts about dragon ball managing to include a character like in a way that that would seem seamless and without it feeling like agenda to me;
There's nothing inherently wrong with having an agenda, but just don't sacrifice an interesting character for the sake of the agenda.
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