Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

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Demon of Light
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Demon of Light » Mon May 25, 2015 9:31 pm

Between General Blue and Otokosuki (his name literally means "loves men" oh my god), I don't think having more explicitly LGBTQ characters in Dragon Ball media is even advisable. Dragon Ball isn't exactly known for nuanced characterization or romance, and treating sexual and gender identity as a gag just isn't a thing you can do anymore.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Mon May 25, 2015 9:39 pm

clutchins wrote: No I didn't forget that I like women as well, but that shouldn't matter. What do you mean by "half?" My entire sexuality is not represented in the show. When did one of those characters ever hit on another character of the same sex?
Half is more than none. Simple.
clutchins wrote:And to repeat my final point, it's a martial arts shonen show. This isn't some slice of life rom-com with a high school setting (Saiyaman notwithstanding). I don't expect there to be any depth in romance among any two characters, let alone any gay or lesbian or bisexual characters.
At what point did people start demanding sprawling romance arcs for new gay characters? What part of "like Gohan/Videl or Bulma/Vegeta" is hard to understand? Yes, even off-screen Bulma/Vegeta romance has its point and adds to this martial arts shonen show and Vegeta's character in particular. Characters have arcs, motivations, things/people/ideas they fight for. The plot has progression, build-ups, stakes and goals that don't exist in vacuum. If you only want to watch martial arts you can simply YouTube some training videos. Dragon Ball is a graphic novel/animation with martial arts.
clutchins wrote:Also keep in mind that Dragon Ball is the product of a different time when this conversation was not even being had. Even 20 and 30 years ago gays and lesbians were not part of the cultural zeitgeist as they are today (and certainly not bisexuals!)
Dragon Ball Super will be a product of the 2010s so it's a moot point what was going on 30 years ago. Hit me up on PM if you wanna discuss more off-top broader aspects of that

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Rocketman » Mon May 25, 2015 9:40 pm

Basaku wrote:About as blatant as Gohan and Videl holding hands or Chi-Chi kissing Goku. We could of course also go into Kamesennin's "zone" and it would be perfectly appropirate for a Dragon Ball show.

Or you treat it like it's a no big deal and the same message gets sent.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. With those lines I was referring specifically to transgenderism, which can't be shown, only told.
MarCas92 wrote:Do you find them offensive or just badly written? Otokosuki I get since he's just one big stereotype and isn't interesting. But Blue? I personally find him one of the funnest characters in Dragon Ball. If it wasn't for Tao Pai Pai, he'd be my favorite villain in that show. I think his homosexuality adds to his character, in a way being a parody of stereotypical German Nazis (blonde hair/blue eyes/clean and tidy/psychic powers).
Otokosuki is pretty offensive. Blue in the manga is generally ok, but then in the anime and various supplemental things....eccch.

And there were openly gay Nazis, so Blue isn't as much of a parody as you'd think.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Mon May 25, 2015 9:48 pm

Rocketman wrote:Sorry, I wasn't clear. With those lines I was referring specifically to transgenderism, which can't be shown, only told.
Yep that's something that (especially in drawn form) would have to be spelled out, oviously not an issue for a show like DB where private parts being discussed is totally standard. The latter part still stands, there's no need for spelling out acceptance messages if the characters on screen simply treat it as no big deal.
Rocketman wrote: And there were openly gay Nazis, so Blue isn't as much of a parody as you'd think.
Which is why gay Nazi stereotype was being popularized by Allies countries. Obviously not in a good way, we're talking WWII era

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 9:54 pm

VegettoEX wrote: There is no discussion to be had on this matter: bigoted assholery is not accepted here, so take your bigoted assholery elsewhere.
There's nothing at all bigoted about my statement. Do you think someone is bigoted just because they don't agree with you?

If I had said "unfortunately" instead of "thankfully", would you have still called me out for it? If not, then that's a huge double standard on your part.

Now, back on topic: no, I don't think there should be gay/bi/trans characters in order to appear "politically correct" or meet some sort of quota. I doubt that anyone has ever thought "Man, DBZ is really good, but it can never reach true greatness due to there not being enough homosexuals. It was so close to greatness, but also so far away."

I'm also tired of the homosexual agenda being thrown into everything. And I'm tired of being labelled as a bigot if I don't support the homosexual lifestyle.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon May 25, 2015 10:04 pm

What 'agenda' and 'lifestyle'? People who use those words that way just confuse me.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon May 25, 2015 10:08 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Otokosuki is pretty offensive.
Not at all. Just open about his sexuality.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Rocketman » Mon May 25, 2015 10:10 pm

Zenkai wrote:And I'm tired of being labelled as a bigot if I don't support the homosexual lifestyle.
Stop being a bigot and you won't be labelled as one.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon May 25, 2015 10:12 pm

Zenkai wrote:I'm tired of being labelled as a bigot if I don't support the homosexual lifestyle.
First of all, you're a bigot because you support taking people's rights away because they're different than you. That's the definition of bigotry.

Second, it's not a "lifestyle". That's like claiming being asian is a "lifestyle" choice (and I wouldn't be surprised if some racists morons thought it was). Even if it was a lifestyle choice, why should you even care?

Your comments are absurd, and outright offensive. Shit like this is what would get this thread locked.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon May 25, 2015 10:16 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Zenkai wrote:I'm tired of being labelled as a bigot if I don't support the homosexual lifestyle.
First of all, you're a bigot because you support taking people's rights away because they're different than you. That's the definition of bigotry.

Second of all, it's not a "lifestyle". That's like claiming being asian is a "lifestyle" choice (and I wouldn't be surprised if some racists morons thought it was). Even if it was a lifestyle choice, why should you even care?

Your comments are absurd, and outright offensive. Shit like this is what would get this thread locked.
Pretty much this.

I can understand not supporting gay marriage, but to label homosexuality a "lifestyle" and being downright against it is pretty ridiculous in this day and age.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 10:25 pm

Metalwario64 wrote: First of all, you're a bigot because you support taking people's rights away because they're different than you. That's the definition of bigotry.
I'm not supporting taking anyone's rights away. No one ever had the right to marry someone of the same sex in the first place. I believe that God created marriage and that He said it's between one man and one woman.
Second, it's not a "lifestyle". That's like claiming being asian is a "lifestyle" choice (and I wouldn't be surprised if some racists morons thought it was).
I don't believe that people with same-sex attraction (SSA) choose to become attracted to the same sex. I surely didn't. Yes, I'm attracted to males as well as females.

The attraction is not a sin. Rather, it's acting on the attraction (ie gay sex, etc.) that is sinful.

Your analogy here really doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by MajinMan » Mon May 25, 2015 10:29 pm

I think we should all agree to disagree and end this before anything bad happens. As for the topic, I'm not sure. I don't know if it would add anything significant to the story. They would have to explore the character more for it to work and I don't really see any situation that would warrant that. If it happens then fine, I just hope Toriyama does it well.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 10:35 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
I can understand not supporting gay marriage, but to label homosexuality a "lifestyle" and being downright against it is pretty ridiculous in this day and age.
From Wikipedia: "The term '''lifestyle''' can denote the interests, opinions, behaviors, and behavioral orientations of an individual, group, or culture."
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Mon May 25, 2015 10:42 pm

Zenkai wrote:I'm not supporting taking anyone's rights away. No one ever had the right to marry someone of the same sex in the first place. I believe that God created marriage and that He said it's between one man and one woman.

I don't believe that people with same-sex attraction (SSA) choose to become attracted to the same sex. I surely didn't. Yes, I'm attracted to males as well as females.

The attraction is not a sin. Rather, it's acting on the attraction (ie gay sex, etc.) that is sinful.

Your analogy here really doesn't make any sense.
Either you recognize logic that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality as it doesn't harm anyone and no reason to deny homosexual people right to marry or you blindly follow religious doctrine that says "it's wrong because it's wrong". And that is a choice, yours to make.
Last edited by Basaku on Mon May 25, 2015 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Mon May 25, 2015 10:43 pm

Whether you mean to be or not (and it's certainly sounding like you do mean to be) Zenkai, you are coming off like a bigot, and a big one at that. "Homosexual agenda"? Oh please. When you have been mistreated in life, actually mistreated, because you're straight or even just because someone thinks you're straight, as so many gay and otherwise people (and even some that were just taken for that, as I was at times in school) have been mistreated for their own sexuality, maybe then you can complain about an "agenda", cuz as things stand now, the only agenda is that of your own.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject though (presuming I can suppress myself), because I feel like this is a topic that's worth discussing and I'd hate to see it closed.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon May 25, 2015 10:47 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:That's all I'm going to say on the subject though (presuming I can suppress myself), because I feel like this is a topic that's worth discussing and I'd hate to see it closed.
I hate making posts like these so much, because I fell they bring to much attention to myself, but I feel exactly the same way. I feel the urge to retort, but I'm holding myself back because I don't want to step out of line and get banned from this forum, which I've spent infinitely more time on than any other I've joined.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 10:48 pm

Basaku wrote:
Either you recognize logic that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality as it doesn't harm anyone and no reason to deny homosexual people right to marry or you blindly follow religious doctrine that says "it's wrong because it's wrong". And that is a choice, yours to make.
I believe God made sex to be both procreative and unitive. Gay sex is not procreative; it cannot lead to reproduction.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Adamant » Mon May 25, 2015 10:54 pm

Zenkai wrote: I believe God made sex to be both procreative and unitive. Gay sex is not procreative; it cannot lead to reproduction.
I'd advise directing your hatred towards the contraceptive industry rather than gay people then. There's far more people using condoms than there are people having gay sex out there.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 10:55 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:Whether you mean to be or not (and it's certainly sounding like you do mean to be) Zenkai, you are coming off like a bigot, and a big one at that. "Homosexual agenda"? Oh please. When you have been mistreated in life, actually mistreated, because you're straight or even just because someone thinks you're straight, as so many gay and otherwise people (and even some that were just taken for that, as I was at times in school) have been mistreated for their own sexuality, maybe then you can complain about an "agenda", cuz as things stand now, the only agenda is that of your own.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject though (presuming I can suppress myself), because I feel like this is a topic that's worth discussing and I'd hate to see it closed.
I'm not trying to be mean. I'm trying to express my religious beliefs on this issue. Others have been stating their beliefs, so I joined in and expressed a belief that differs from many of the others in this thread. Then, I was subsequently labelled a bigot for sharing said belief.

And as for me being mistreated, how about my mistreatment in this very thread? Being labelled a bigot for having different beliefs screams 'mistreatment' to me.
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Re: Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

Post by Basaku » Mon May 25, 2015 10:58 pm

Zenkai wrote:I believe God made sex to be both procreative and unitive. Gay sex is not procreative; it cannot lead to reproduction.
Neither can sex be procreative among straight infertile couples or straight eldery couples.

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