Is DBZA Goku better than current DBZ Goku?

[MYSTICisPOWER]

First time posting! Was not totally sure if this belonged in this forum or "In-Universe" section since I'm talking about writing style. If I messed that up I apologize. This may strike you as a joke thread but I intend to prove that TFS's version of Goku is a better written character than the Goku of real DBZ.

Let's start Toriyama's Goku: As a character I believe he suffers from the Superman complex (yes I'm aware people tend to compare the two in matters of strength). This complex is having a character that is pseudo All-powerful and all-knowing and thus inherently undramatic. Goku has no conflict, not within himself or the world around him. The only thing he conflicts with is the current villain he happens to be fighting at the time, and even then those relationships are elementary at best with little to no complexity or life to them. Unfortunately the only good relationship he had in the series was with Vegeta (who at once was one of Toriyama's best characters). But that relationship has been worn out, nothing new has been added to it and in recent material Vegeta has lost a lot of what made him special in the effort to make him another Goku.

Now onto DBZA. I know this is parody, but they have made a remarkable change to the character of Goku. By juxtaposing his incredible strength with his absurd stupidity you create not only a hilarious character, but one that actually has a conflict within himself. It also enhances his relationships to the outside world, especially his fellow cast mates. The other character go from saying "WE NEED GOKU" to "Oh crap, do we really need Goku!?" Even in this example the latter statement is more dramatic and interesting. There are opposing forces at work. There is more to gain out of the character of Goku when there are different shades to work with.

Now I'm not trying to suggest the Toriyama is an awful writer. Far from it, he has written exceptional characters before, Piccolo, Future Trunks, Freeza are all great characters. Even more his best character is Gohan, who is the most complex, colorful, and deep character in the entire DBZ Universe. Yet he's been tossed aside, his story left incomplete in favor of a protagonists who is impossible as an audience member to build a relationship towards because there is no life in Goku.


Let me know what you think!

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm no fan of Superman, but the only people who say that he has no conflict, is not complex, and has no drama are those who haven't actually read good Superman stories.

Edit: Removed.

[VegettoEX]

Also, I believe I just heard ABED's rage break due to the title of this thread.

Can we not do this, please? If someone wants to contribute, let them contribute. If their contributions are worthwhile, great. If not, please report the posts.

Enough with this stuff.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

I'm no fan of Superman, but the only people who say that he has no conflict, is not complex, and has no drama are those who haven't actually read good Superman stories.

Fair enough, that may be the case, perhaps Superman is the wrong comparison, a Dues-ex-machina complex then? I only hesitate because Goku is quite literally a God now.

[Doctor.]

I'm no fan of Superman, but the only people who say that he has no conflict, is not complex, and has no drama are those who haven't actually read good Superman stories.

And following this train of thought, I can't believe someone would say the same thing about Goku unless they haven't been paying attention.

Sure, he has no conflict and isn't interesting now, but that's because his story is finished. Any new material is just pointless milking that will either just reinforce what we already know or won't make an effort in trying to change the status quo because change isn't safe or profitable. If you're comparing two different versions of Goku, then compare DBZA Goku to the same Goku in the manga during those particular arcs, not the current Goku whose problems and conflicts have been resolved and whose development has been completed.

And hell, even current Goku is an interesting and flawed character. Saying otherwise when Battle of Gods did an excellent job portraying an inner conflict within the character is a blatant lie.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku had a major internal conflict during BoG with the way he obtain his God Power up. I'm sure Goku still hates that.

[B]

Goku's lack of internal conflict is kind of the point, I believe. He's the unmovable rock that the waves of Bulma, Yamcha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan, and Vegeta splash against. He stays the same while they grow and evolve and you can see that pretty clearly as the series goes forward.

From what I've seen of Abridged, they just kind of exacerbate that to its most humorous effects. Instead of being inspired by his purity, their appalled at his stupidity. It's a slightly more realistic thought process, but it's a kids' comic and cartoon. Obviously under the lens of our own world, a person like Goku can't exist.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

Sure, he has no conflict and isn't interesting now, but that's because his story is finished. Any new material is just pointless milking that will either just reinforce what we already know or won't make an effort in trying to change the status quo because change isn't safe or profitable. If you're comparing two different versions of Goku, then compare DBZA Goku to the same Goku in the manga during those particular arcs, not the current Goku whose problems and conflicts have been resolved and whose development has been completed.

And hell, even current Goku is an interesting and flawed character. Saying otherwise when Battle of Gods did an excellent job portraying an inner conflict within the character is a blatant lie.

I had a hard time thinking Goku was interesting during BoG especially compared to Beerus. His first defeat by Beerus in no way changes him, then he gets a power-up from him friends and family, one of whom is his unborn grandchild which he only objects to after the ritual has been done. But that objection doesn't affect him throughout the movie, it seems to only interest Bills. His second defeat by Beerus again does nothing again, it's only by Beerus's mercy that anything happens.

Also to say he's not interesting NOW because his story is finished paints a bleak picture for the future of DBZ. If your main protagonists story is done how can you possibly continue that story? Am I suppose to expect boring pointless material from this point on. I have high hopes for Dragon Ball Super and hope this isn't the case.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

Goku's lack of internal conflict is kind of the point, I believe. He's the unmovable rock that the waves of Bulma, Yamcha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan, and Vegeta splash against. He stays the same while they grow and evolve and you can see that pretty clearly as the series goes forward.

From what I've seen of Abridged, they just kind of exacerbate that to its most humorous effects. Instead of being inspired by his purity, their appalled at his stupidity. It's a slightly more realistic thought process, but it's a kids' comic and cartoon. Obviously under the lens of our own world, a person like Goku can't exist.

I never thought of it like this, and I really like the idea. If we are to assume that Goku will be the stable unchanging force of the story he can't be your protagonist. There is no journey for him to take. As an audience we will be drawn to the characters that are changing and evolving.

But Goku can be a major factor that pushes the other characters and allows them to move the story forward.

[Doctor.]

I had a hard time thinking Goku was interesting during BoG especially compared to Beerus. His first defeat by Beerus in no way changes him, then he gets a power-up from him friends and family, one of whom is his unborn grandchild which he only objects to after the ritual has been done. But that objection doesn't affect him throughout the movie, it seems to only interest Bills. His second defeat by Beerus again does nothing again, it's only by Beerus's mercy that anything happens.

I disagree. Goku at the beginning of the film had the same mentality that he has in Resurrection 'F', that now that he's (one of) the strongest in the universe, he can relax because there isn't going to be anyone around to beat him. He gets excited at the potential strength of the "God of Destruction" and even treats him with respect in order to get one chance to fight, in which he promptly taunts him at the beginning of their bout and acts relatively cocky while in Super Saiyan 3, sure of his win, unbelieving of what's happening in front of him. After he's beaten, he acknowledges there are opponents leagues beyond him and tries to improve his strength.

I'll be willing to argue that Goku hasn't been taking his training seriously prior to his encounter with Beerus. After he had defeated Boo, in the JSAT special we didn't see him train at all and he said (iirc) that he hasn't been training. And at the start of Battle of Gods, he was just jogging instead of actually training, really. But when he's defeated? Man, he starts back his old routine, practicing exercises similar to the ones he did in his spaceship on the way to Namek.

The power-up did affect him. Battle of Gods makes a great effort in improving Goku's characterization, specifically by tackling aspect of Goku's character we've never had the displeasure of knowing about before: his pride. Pride has always been the major factor in a Saiyan's growth and will to fight, as illustrated by Vegeta especially, but also by Nappa and Raditz to a lesser extent. The fact that we never saw Goku as this prideful being prior to BoG is astonishing. Goku has to reconcile his hero self and his fighting addict self for the best of his home and friends. The conversation that both Goku and Beerus were having not only interested the latter, but it also changed his actions throughout the course of the fight. Notice that at one point, Beerus starts firing off blasts, and Goku looks entirely displeased. He had thought this was merely a fight between two 'friends', illustrated by the hand to hand combat demonstrated prior. But Beerus shatters that notion, cementing that this is not a game, the Saiyan is fighting for the future of his planet. After that point, you can see that Goku no longer talks about being displeased with his power-up, even if he was, he didn't care at that point, all he could think about was defending Earth.

He even says at the hand "I wish I could be happy, but there's still a huge gap between our power", even after sacrificing his pride and being utterly disgusted with himself, even after throwing his morals away. Despite acquiring that dimension of power for himself, because of his own genius, at that point in the movie, he couldn't bring himself to be happy, because at the end, he still couldn't do anything against such an overwhelming force. It was a breath-taking conversation and it was the most interesting part of the film to me, I couldn't care less about the fight itself or the visuals when that were going on.

Also to say he's not interesting NOW because his story is finished paints a bleak picture for the future of DBZ. If your main protagonists story is done how can you possibly continue that story? Am I suppose to expect boring pointless material from this point on. I have high hopes for Dragon Ball Super and hope this isn't the case.

Well... yeah. I am, at least. This is a story that has been finished for 20 years. I'm not going to be expecting something new when all the characters have already had a huge amount of time to establish themselves in the eyes of the audience. I do hope they're going to take risks in regards to characterization and character development, but I highly doubt it.

[fadeddreams5]

A lot of great posts here that hit the head on the nail when it comes to Goku.

I really do wish his role as a teacher was explored now. That's definitely something new. Unfortunately, I get the hunch Super will take place before EoZ.

[ABED]

A purely external conflict can be just as interesting as an internal one, it all depends on execution. The problem with Superman isn't that he's "perfect" it's that he's written too powerful so it's hard to create good obstacles for him. Sure, Goku's incredibly strong but there's no shortage of strong beings for Goku to fight.

I never thought of it like this, and I really like the idea. If we are to assume that Goku will be the stable unchanging force of the story he can't be your protagonist. There is no journey for him to take. As an audience we will be drawn to the characters that are changing and evolving.

Goku's been like this for years, and yet he's still the frontman for the story, so I wouldn't be so quick to speak for the audience.

But Goku can be a major factor that pushes the other characters and allows them to move the story forward.

I'd much rather the writers give Goku something interesting to do than be a tool to push other characters forward. I like seeing how Goku affects other characters like in DB, but the main character should be the one pushing the story forward along with the antagonist(s).

I only hesitate because Goku is quite literally a God now

Only in the same way the Greek gods were. They weren't omnipotent and were very human in their actions.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

The power-up did affect him. Battle of Gods makes a great effort in improving Goku's characterization, specifically by tackling aspect of Goku's character we've never had the displeasure of knowing about before: his pride.

You're right, I did overlook this development in Goku's character in my last post, and it's something I hope they continue to explore if indeed he's going to remain the protagonist. That being said, it didn't produce dramatic action. It in no way helps further his relationship with him friends and family because he just accepted the power-up. Furthermore he only discusses his objection with Beerus. "Words are wind." At no point does Goku's dilemma physicalize in an action towards Beerus, towards himself, or towards his friends and family. This is the shame because with the stakes so high there is really a great opportunity to explore this conflict.

Perhaps its just an effect of the Producer's and such not wanting to alter Goku so they can continue making money of him. But in the end its going to have a negative impact on the franchise, which is a shame cause there are several over characters that have in my opinion a lot more to offer to a modern audience.

[ABED]

The power-up did affect him. Battle of Gods makes a great effort in improving Goku's characterization, specifically by tackling aspect of Goku's character we've never had the displeasure of knowing about before: his pride.

You're right, I did overlook this development in Goku's character in my last post, and it's something I hope they continue to explore if indeed he's going to remain the protagonist. That being said, it didn't produce dramatic action. It in no way helps further his relationship with him friends and family because he just accepted the power-up. Furthermore he only discusses his objection with Beerus. "Words are wind." At no point does Goku's dilemma physicalize in an action towards Beerus, towards himself, or towards his friends and family. This is the shame because with the stakes so high there is really a great opportunity to explore this conflict.

Perhaps its just an effect of the Producer's and such not wanting to alter Goku so they can continue making money of him. But in the end its going to have a negative impact on the franchise, which is a shame cause there are several over characters that have in my opinion a lot more to offer to a modern audience.

Do you honestly think changing Goku a little would have a huge negative affect on the character's profitability?

By "modern audience" you mean?

[MYSTICisPOWER]

Personally I don't think it would change his profitability, but I think the powers at be do. To introduce a negative aspect to your hero is one thing, which they did, but they didn't have it effect Goku's dramatic action, which is really what matters.

When I say "modern audience" I'm trying to highlight the difference between the audience for DBZ back in the 80s and 90s and the audiences of 2015. I think, particularly young people are not only capable of handling vast complexities in their stories. They demand it. Television (anime included) has evolved tremendously over the last ten years and I think DBZ can benefit if it evolves with the time.

Only in the same way the Greek gods were. They weren't omnipotent and were very human in their actions.

Goku very much plays the role of a Greek God in DBZ. Many times he literally is a Dues-ex-machina, and he flourishes in that role to an extent. But the Greek Dramas revolved around the mortals, the relationships and conflicts they had with one another and how the Gods affected the mortals for better or for worse. The Gods were never the protagonists. I would be very happy if Goku shifts into this role.

[ABED]

You're being too concrete with this. There's a reason there's a constant comparison between Greek gods and superheroes because they are really just beings with superpowers. That was my point.

Maybe the power ups are deus ex machina, but how is Goku an example of one?

To introduce a negative aspect to your hero is one thing, which they did, but they didn't have it effect Goku's dramatic action, which is really what matters.

Goku's not exactly your traditional hero and has made questionable moral decisions before (not out of malice) and that never affected Goku's popularity.

Kids then and now were always capable of handling complexities, I just don't think the PTB thought so.

there are several over characters that have in my opinion a lot more to offer

For instance?

[MYSTICisPOWER]

Maybe I'm missing something in the argument then. Because the Gods in Greek Drama do not change, they don't go on a journey, like the protagonists of the plays do they are there to help or hurt the main hero. So if Goku was to fill this role in DBZ it doesn't support the idea of him remaining the protagonist and it's what makes his character suffer because it doesn't make sense.

Maybe the power ups are deus ex machina, but how is Goku an example of one?

Several times he fits this, the Saiyan Saga, and on Namek. Then in Brojack Unbound and Broly Second Coming, he literally descends from the Heavens in the most god like style to directly affect the story.

For instance?

Like I said in my OP, I think Gohan has a lot more to offer the story. He has serious tragic flaws such as his self-doubt and his fear. He's incredibly conflicted with what he wants to do (be a scholar) with what he has to do, which is protect his family. (If he were to become to main character). His relationship with Piccolo is one of the most captivating in the series and something that I think can be fleshed out with great detail. His fear of the power that lies within him and what its capable of doing and continuing to control it. His relationship with Videl and how her desires may clash with his. Everything associated with being a good father. His hope to never to have kill or hurt someone but the unfortunate reality that he may have to. And his constant struggle to live up to his father's impossible reputation. These are just off the top of my head, I think there is a lot more to explore within Gohan and his relationships to other people. Not to mention his incredibly goofy and has many different colors to his personality. Not to mention other character such as Vegeta, Piccolo, Trunks, Videl, Bulma, and 18 who also have a lot to add

[ABED]

But that's not Deus Ex Machina when he arrives on Namek and in the Saiyan arc. The unstoppable bad guys aren't suddenly defeated by contrived new character or development. I'm willing to give you movie 10 but that's not canon.

His fear of the power that lies within him and what its capable of doing and continuing to control it... He has serious tragic flaws such as his self-doubt and his fear.

Not something he has until the fight against Cell. It came out of nowhere. I think you are also overplaying how much self doubt Gohan has. Other than the Saiyan arc and the Cell Games (again, it came out of nowhere), he doesn't have much self doubt.

Gohan's a great character but he's not a lead character. And an internal conflict doesn't axiomatically make him a better character. In a fighting manga/anime, I tend to find self-doubting fighters less interesting to watch than one's that are sure of themselves, even if a little overconfident. Goku's dynamics with each of the other characters you mentioned are just as rich and interesting. Okay, maybe not Videl. There are a lot of interesting places you can still take a fully fleshed out constant character like Goku. For instance, what about the story of the old gun fighter? I do think you could tell a story where Goku made at least attempts at being a better family man.

I say all of this because I can't remember a show where another character took over for the main character for the better.

[Doctor.]

Like I said in my OP, I think Gohan has a lot more to offer the story. He has serious tragic flaws such as his self-doubt and his fear. He's incredibly conflicted with what he wants to do (be a scholar) with what he has to do, which is protect his family. (If he were to become to main character). His relationship with Piccolo is one of the most captivating in the series and something that I think can be fleshed out with great detail. His fear of the power that lies within him and what its capable of doing and continuing to control it. His relationship with Videl and how her desires may clash with his. Everything associated with being a good father. His hope to never to have kill or hurt someone but the unfortunate reality that he may have to. And his constant struggle to live up to his father's impossible reputation. These are just off the top of my head, I think there is a lot more to explore within Gohan and his relationships to other people. Not to mention his incredibly goofy and has many different colors to his personality. Not to mention other character such as Vegeta, Piccolo, Trunks, Videl, Bulma, and 18 who also have a lot to add

I think you're hoping for too much from this franchise, really. Dragon Ball is not a story with deep and complex characters. It's a story with characters that have interesting aspects about their personalities that could be explored thoroughly but most likely will not unless Toriyama pulls a Togashi on us with DBS and starts exploring the psychological aspect of his characters. Goku's character has a lot of different aspects they could use to affect the story-line, but they'll most likely always stick to "puts battles above everything else" instead of using his other characteristics to affect how the story will go.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

I say all of this because I can't remember a show where another character took over for the main character for the better.

This probably doesn't help my argument because I understand they are vastly different, but if you want an example getting rid of Ned Stark was one of the best decisions GRRM made with ASOIAF.

Not something he has until the fight against Cell. It came out of nowhere. I think you are also overplaying how much self doubt Gohan has. Other than the Saiyan arc and the Cell Games (again, it came out of nowhere)

I think that's being a little unfair, during the Cell Games he becomes aware of that power thinking back to the moments he's lost control and makes the decision that it's something he doesn't want to relive for several reasons. Of course Cell pushes him to far then, but its something layered into the story from early on.

And I agree Gohan does learn to outlive his self-doubt to an extent but we never see that action or evolution, in the buu saga he's all gung-ho to fight despite his nature which is a plot hole of that saga.

Also I think Gohan has more delicate relationships with other characters, there personal and specific to each other cast member but Goku has a psuedo-same relationship to different characters.

Also because of Gohan's nature if he were the main protagonist, a lot of other character would get a chance to shine because Gohan would naturally not want to involve himself, you expand the possibilities of what dragon ball can cover. Whereas with Goku and Vegeta's desire to fight it becomes the Goku and Vegeta show and all they do is fight fight fight.

I do think you could tell a story where Goku made at least attempts at being a better family man.

I think so too, but they would never give Goku that realization that he hasn't been a good father in the past, which is a shame.

I tend to find self-doubting fighters less interesting to watch than one's that are sure of themselves, even if a little overconfident. Goku's dynamics with each of the other characters you mentioned are just as rich and interesting.

But overconfidence doesn't work when you win all your fights. It played well with Vegeta's character because he mostly got his butt kicked, but Goku always wins so how can I find his overconfidence interesting when that's the case.

I think you're hoping for too much from this franchise, really. Dragon Ball is not a story with deep and complex characters..

Is that wrong? I think it can be and there are character who it can follow to achieve that. Goku being one of them if fundamental changes are made to his character. I hope they do in Super, I think it can really be great.